Belief, a condition or evidence?

[Deleted member 6]

Greetings,

Faith /believing is an evidence of having been Justified by the object of ones Faith, the Lord Jesus Christ, His Blood and Righteousness Imputed.

Christ Justified the elect before God by baring their sins Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Then subsequently in time the Justified one is quickened to life by the Spirit and given the Gift of Faith that brings evidence and assurance, persuasion that Christ has Justified them before God by His Blood Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 3:25

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Rom 5:1

Therefore being justified, by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

See its not Faiths role to Justify one before God, but to show it to them so they can receive it and be persuaded of it

Were the elect justified in eternity or it time?

 

[brightfame52]

Were the elect justified in eternity or it time?

In the Mind and Purpose of God in Eternity, in time at the Cross. See the Cross in the Mind and Purpose of God was in His Present Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Now answer this, do you believe the names written in the book of Life was in eternity ? If yes, were they wriiten as persons condemned or Justified in Christ ?

 

[Carbon]

In the Mind and Purpose of God in Eternity, in time at the Cross. See the Cross in the Mind and Purpose of God was in His Present Rev 13:8

Indeed.

 

[atpollard]

Were the elect justified in eternity or in time?

Yes, both.
Baptist Standard Answer ... "already and not yet".

• Before the Earth was formed, when GOD purposed in His heart to incarnate a savior to redeem a people that had not yet been created (let alone fallen) and YOU and I were FOREKNOWN, were we less JUSTIFIED than we are now?
• When Jesus hung dying on a cross, his blood staining the ground around him, as he proclaimed "it is finished" (account settled) and breathed his last, were YOU and I less JUSTIFIED than we are now?
• When tears streamed from our face and we ... knew that we knew that we knew ... and YOU and I were never going to be the same after that moment, were we less JUSTIFIED than we are now?
• When YOU and I stand in GLORY, perfected even as God is perfect, shouting our praises in his ETERNAL NOW, will we be any more JUSTIFIED than we are now?

YESTERDAY, TODAY, FOREVER ... that's when we were Justified. That's where God lives.

 

[ReverendRV]

Yes, both.
Baptist Standard Answer ... "already and not yet".

• Before the Earth was formed, when GOD purposed in His heart to incarnate a savior to redeem a people that had not yet been created (let alone fallen) and YOU and I were FOREKNOWN, were we less JUSTIFIED than we are now?
• When Jesus hung dying on a cross, his blood staining the ground around him, as he proclaimed "it is finished" (account settled) and breathed his last, were YOU and I less JUSTIFIED than we are now?
• When tears streamed from our face and we ... knew that we knew that we knew ... and YOU and I were never going to be the same after that moment, were we less JUSTIFIED than we are now?
• When YOU and I stand in GLORY, perfected even as God is perfect, shouting our praises in his ETERNAL NOW, will we be any more JUSTIFIED than we are now?

YESTERDAY, TODAY, FOREVER ... that's when we were Justified. That's where God lives.

Good stuff is said, when Heckle and Jeckle are not around...

 

[Carbon]

Good stuff is said, when Heckle and Jeckle are not around...

Amen to that!

 

[ReverendRV]

Please don't

 

[Deleted member 6]

In the Mind and Purpose of God in Eternity, in time at the Cross. See the Cross in the Mind and Purpose of God was in His Present Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Now answer this, do you believe the names written in the book of Life was in eternity ? If yes, were they wriiten as persons condemned or Justified in Christ ?

They were written in the Lamb's book of life before they were ever created. However, that does not mean they were justified before being saved. When we see the ordo salutis, it is foreknown(elected), predestined, called, justified, sanctified, and also glorified. Calling comes before justification, because faith (as we are justified by faith {Romans 5:1} and faith also comes from hearing the word{Romans 10:17{) coming by hearing (as I previously stated) the word of God. So, no one is born justified, as that would mean they were born saved, as no one who is justified is lost and vice versa.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

I say the same things as High Theologians, I just try to say them in a Fundamental way. Thanks...

High Theologians who believe in Limited Atonement will say that in Man's perspective All can be Saved; just have Faith. We know that All will not do this. But what if God had another Great Awakening, and all of the sudden everyone started getting Saved? The Harvest would be Great, no matter how many Sermons we Preach on Limited Atonement...

That's God's business...

But all would still not be saved. There would be a rather large swath of humanity *prior* to that possible next great awakening that was not saved. So still "Limited".

 

[Deleted member 6]

I'll send them an invite.

Yes, and I'll wield the "hammer"!!

 

[brightfame52]

sovereign grace

they were written in the Lamb's book of life before they were ever created.

Well said, agreed

However, that does not mean they were justified before being saved.

I disagree, before God they were, so you you obviously believe that God viewed them whose names were written in the book of life as condemned, guilty

Calling comes before justification

That is Justification in time by Faith, as elect they had already been Justified before God Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

However in the Eternal Purpose of God saved/justified comes before calling in time 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Calling comes before justification, because faith (as we are justified by faith {Romans 5:1}

Faiths object is the Justification the elect always had in and through Christ, Before Rom 5:1 is Rom 4:25 showing that Christ rose for our Justification,

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Thats the object of Faith, the testification of Christs resurrection, be careful not to deny that.

Rom 5:1 could be read with the comma in a different place thusly Rom 5:1

Therefore being justified, by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Understand the punctuation isnt inspired.

. So, no one is born justified,

Sure they are, legally before God, Christ died for them and put away their guilt before they were born didnt He ? The Resurrection testifies to that !

Now in time during the lifetime of the Justified sinner, Christ will quicken them with regeneration, new Spiritual life, and bring them under the Preaching of the Gospel and they shall believe.

 

[brightfame52]

I'm not convinced that Revelation 13:8 is rendered correctly in the KJV. Here is the ESV: and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.

They were written as those who would be saved in time. Ephesians 2:1-4 refutes your EJ model.

Thats fine if you are not convinced.

 

[Reformedguy]

Certainly if one unnamed found his way here it would turn into whack-a-mole.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BackLoneGalapagoshawk-max-1mb.gif

Who?

 

[Carbon]

Who?

It’s a mystery.

 

[Carbon]

I appreciate it. But the thing is Ephesians shows salvation in time. A study (for both of us) on Revelation 13:8 would be helpful. I don't believe The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, but in time.

Amen!

 

[ReverendRV]

This is good; we need a little diversity here. If we all believed alike, why even be here? If we get an Arminian who doesn't like to fight, that would be even better...

 

[brightfame52]

I appreciate it. But the thing is Ephesians shows salvation in time. A study (for both of us) on Revelation 13:8 would be helpful. I don't believe The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, but in time.

I dont believe the Lamb was slain literally before time, however in Gods Mind and Purpose He was, time isnt a factor with God friend, have you ever read Rom 4:17

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

God declared Abe a Father when he was childless, yet literally he was not yet a father at all

 

[brightfame52]

A Article to consider in light of this momentous subject matter on how to consider faith or believing as whether an evidence or condition of salvation:

Martin Luther & Sola Fide​

Personally, my first encounter with Luther was over 30 years ago, when his Commentary on the Galatians, along with his work on the Romans, was opened before me, as I eagerly consumed its pages, having just two years’ prior opened a Bible for the very first time in my life. It was sacred time of intense yearnings for life and truth, as the Gospel message began to engage my thoughts and the things of Christ were made pre-eminent. Over the years as I continued to consult Luther in divers writings, and on a variety of doctrinal matters, I began to question Luther’s true perception of the Gospel, especially in this vital matter of Faith or Christ. In other words, to what we may attribute a believer’s justification before the Lord? Is it a principle of faith, {justification by faith,} however Divinely generated, or Christ’s Mediatorial merit alone? This is an imperative distinction! Luther says in his Commentary on the Galatians, “that when I first took upon me the defense of the Gospel, I remember that Dr. Staupitius, a worthy man, said thus unto me, ‘this liketh me well, that this doctrine which thou preaches yieldeth glory, and all things else unto God alone, and nothing unto man, for unto God there cannot be attributed too much glory, goodness, mercy, &c.,’ his saying did then greatly comfort and confirm me. And true it is, that the doctrine of the Gospel taketh from men all glory, wisdom, righteousness, &c., and giveth the same to the Creator alone, who made all things of nothing.” This persuasion of mind, and a firmed inability to ascribe a state of justification to our believing, as opposed to Christ, to whom it exclusively belongs, has prompted the following brief remarks, in essence, to reaffirm our belief in the truth that believers are justified {legally declared righteous from all imputed and contracted sin, guilt & condemnation} exclusively by Christ, and not in any respects by their believing, or anything else supposedly required at their hands as a condition of salvation. Though Luther’s distinction between Law & Gospel is exceptionally sharp, and his emphasis upon the redemptive work of Christ paramount; yet, in some instances he speaks as though in a dark cloud, implying that the subjective faith of a believer is somehow instrumental in his justification towards God. This delusional persuasion, as often referred to as ‘sola fide’ which at its core places the work of salvation in the hands of lost sinners, infers that a principle of faith has to be conjured up or ‘exercised’ {as they say} to fulfill some supposed condition, before the work of salvation can be initiated or become effectual, in order for one to be found in a way of salvation before God; whilst genuine faith {an altogether Spirit infused motion of the soul unto Christ} believes not in order to somehow bring a spiritual reality into existence or to merit, secure, or acquire some gift, favour, or blessing at the hands of the LORD, but is a fixed persuasion of the mind, {a pure revelation of God’s grace in Christ, as it were,} which inwardly realizes, accredits and lays hold upon the assimilating truths of the Gospel, thereby bringing the believer to the assurance, realization, sense, perception & evidence of his salvation in Christ; whom he believes, wholly embraces, exclusively rests & lives upon for all of his justification, sanctification & eternal life. Holy Spirit generated faith or anything in us is not a cause, means, or condition required to partake of Grace, Justification or Salvation, but is simply a fruit and effect of the Eternal Covenant of Redemption, and a certain and sure evidence of Divine Regeneration, which faith accredits Christ as Surety, Representative and Substitute, {in essence Sovereign Divine Imputation, otherwise known as Christ Crucified,} as the sum and substance of all of salvation. Believing cannot render Christ’s blood personally efficacious for anyone, as personal and subjective faith plays no part in this matter of salvation, apart from accrediting Christ’s accomplishment; and to assert that the Scriptures teach decisional regeneration as ‘Arminian’ free-willers do, or faith and gospel regeneration as most ‘Calvinists’ do, is detrimental to the message of the Gospel, especially in this our day, as almost universally the evangelical false gospel is centered in justification before God occurring at the point of subjective faith being acted Christ-ward, which alleged “faith in Christ” is supposed to somehow initiate or activate the work of salvation, but in reality is nothing more than a self-induced persuasion of the mind {presumptuous and unwarranted belief} with no genuine work of the Spirit, revealing and sealing the infinite merit of Christ’s Mediatorial Representation upon the heart of those that belong to Him. Sadly, as is so oft in our day, all is conditioned on the sinner, “if you do this – then God will do that,” as if the LORD were in anywise dependent upon man, or as if implying that the Lord’s unalterable nature were in any sense reactionary. Sincerity, faith, repentance, &c., have become the foundation of salvation, for we are informed that the LORD looketh upon the heart. Indeed, and so he does, {I Sam.16:7,} but this has absolutely nothing to do with the ground of Justification; or in other words with a believer’s standing in Christ. If one makes that grand idol of sincerity, or anything for that matter, be it faith, love, repentance, &c., {“the Lord knows that I am sincere, &c.,”} the basis of his acceptance in Christ, and the ground of his Salvation, he will come to utter ruin! It’s not that the Lord looks upon a sinner’s heart to find certain “marks of grace,” but that he looks to Christ, and that is where the Spirit will cause every penitent sinner to look. True fixated, illuminated and Spirit generated faith {a faith which excludes all boasting, when it comes to the ground of salvation and the procurement of salvation} which is of the operation of God will affirm a salvation in all its facets to be of the LORD. A salvation not built on a {personal} relationship, but on a Suretyship – not on sincere motivation, but Sovereign Imputation – not regeneration or sanctification, but Representation – not by means of grace, but on a Covenant of Grace, ordered in all things and sure, II Sam.23:5, based on Christ crucified being their Surety, Representative, Substitute, and their being in Divinely established union with Him as Covenant Head. And whilst those that belong to Christ, his converted elect, who daily struggle with sin and temptation, have numerous faults, copious defects, inconsistencies, &c., sadly interwoven in many areas of their lives; yet, when it comes to their core confession and perception of the Gospel, will in every instance vehemently deny that their faith, &c., {which is Spirit generated,} plays any part whatsoever in their justification before the LORD. They attribute and impute all the glory, credit and preeminence in the matter of their justification before God to Him to whom it is due; and by faith {as a reflected act} they perceive {that which was given them on the basis of Christ’s redemptive work, on account of Christ’s righteousness imputed, out of consideration of nothing but Christ, by which all boasting is excluded, Rom.3:27,} their nothingness in the matter of salvation, and Christ’s exclusiveness in all which constitutes grace and glory. And yes, though experience and godly living are indeed a vital consequence of salvation, yet these are never the means of obtaining that which is at God’s sovereign disposal to bestow, freely through the merits of Christ alone. We read that “without controversy great is the mystery of godliness,” and indeed so it is, as most would associate “godliness” with living a godly life, {and it is in one vital respect,} but the Scripture associates it with Christ, {“without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; God was manifest in the flesh,”} and that is the impetus behind these few comments, in essence to direct sinners to look to Christ exclusively for the whole of their salvation. To imply that Luther recognized this distinction seems fairly dubious, especially in the light of his other writings, which delineate the fact that he indeed held to some aspects of this abominable and soul-destroying lie, if not indeed being one of its chiefest proponents.

Sola Fide 2017

 

[Josheb]

They were written in the Lamb's book of life before they were ever created. However, that does not mean they were justified before being saved. When we see the ordo salutis, it is foreknown(elected), predestined, called, justified, sanctified, and also glorified. Calling comes before justification, because faith (as we are justified by faith {Romans 5:1} and faith also comes from hearing the word{Romans 10:17{) coming by hearing (as I previously stated) the word of God. So, no one is born justified, as that would mean they were born saved, as no one who is justified is lost and vice versa.

Some good observations. However, I'm curious: do you think what we call the ordo salutis is relevant from God's eternal, non-temporal, point of view?

 

[Josheb]

I dont believe the Lamb was slain literally before time......... time isnt a factor with God........

Can you see the conflict in those two statements?

If time is not a factor, then it is not simply that the lamb was slain "before" time. The lamb was slain irrelevant of time.

1 Peter 1:20-21
For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Jesus was foreknown. He was foreknown before time was made. He was foreknown before time was made specifically as the perfect, blemish-free sacrifice (THE lamb that is/was/would be slain).

He was ALWAYS that guy.

He was revealed as such in the last times.

If there was any point in time and space when Jesus was not the slain lamb then there was also a time and place when he was not the resurrection. His use of the first person singular infinitive would be incorrect in that case. He'd have to say, "I will be the resurrection and the life....," not "I AM the resurrection and the life..." The temporal-only view of Jesus is fundamentally a radically different Christology; one that has Jesus the slain lamb only after a specific point inside time and space, and foreknowledge solely a matter of temporal cognitive fact and not ontology.