Belief, a condition or evidence?

[brightfame52]

josheb

Can you see the conflict in those two statements?

Nope

If time is not a factor, then it is not simply that the lamb was slain "before" time. The lamb was slain irrelevant of time.

Thats your perception not mine

Jesus was foreknown. He was foreknown before time was made.

Yes and foreordained

He was foreknown before time was made specifically as the perfect, blemish-free sacrifice (THE lamb that is/was/would be slain).

Yes He became Surety of the Covenant Heb 7:22

He was ALWAYS that guy.

Yes

If there was any point in time and space when Jesus was not the slain lamb then there was also a time and place when he was not the resurrection. His use of the first person singular infinitive would be incorrect in that case. He'd have to say, "I will be the resurrection and the life....," not "I AM the resurrection and the life...

Agreed Christs death, burial, and resurrection was a done deal from Gods eternal perspective, even before the actual events transpired in time Rom 4:17

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
With this in mind, do you believe the elect for whom Christ was slain, were Justified by the Lamb's blood, before the world began ?

The temporal-only view of Jesus is fundamentally a radically different Christology; one that has Jesus the slain lamb only after a specific point inside time and space, and foreknowledge solely a matter of temporal cognitive fact and not ontology.

Jesus sacrifice was effective for all time before and after the Cross.

 

[Josheb]

Thats your perception not mine

No, it is a function of logic, not perception.

The rest is irrelevant to that point.

 

[brightfame52]

No, it is a function of logic, not perception.

The rest is irrelevant to that point.

With this in mind, do you believe the elect for whom Christ was slain, were Justified by the Lamb's blood, before the world began ?

 

[Josheb]

With this in mind, do you believe the elect for whom Christ was slain, were Justified by the Lamb's blood, before the world began ?

What does scripture state?

 

[brightfame52]

What does scripture state?

Scripture says a lot, so do you believe in eternal Justification, that the elect for whom Christ died, were Justified before God, declared righteous, by His Blood, before the world began ? Yes or No please.

 

[Josheb]

Scripture says a lot, so do you believe in eternal Justification, that the elect for whom Christ died, were Justified before God, declared righteous, by His Blood, before the world began ? Yes or No please.

1) Do you normally have as difficult a time answering questions and staying on topic as you're having here?

2) I answered the questions you asked before they were asked, so are you in the habit of asking questions already answered?

2) Why would you expect anyone, especially me, to collaborate with that?

 

[brightfame52]

1) Do you normally have as difficult a time answering questions and staying on topic as you're having here?

2) I answered the questions you asked before they were asked, so are you in the habit of asking questions already answered?

2) Why would you expect anyone, especially me, to collaborate with that?

Thats cool you must be fearful to answer me now.

 

[ReverendRV]

Please; let's keep the CARM sour tactics away from here...

 

[Josheb]

Thats cool you must be fearful to answer me now.

Nice red herring. Were I the most fearful person ever to exist it would not change the fact I answered the questions before they were asked and didn't receive parity. By the standard just posted that makes you the fearful one. So unnecessary. Just answer the questions asked. Further the discussion. Don't obstruct it.


Jesus' Christological ontology makes his death eternal, not temporal. That's not a function of "perception." The scriptures state it was his oath, not his death or his resurrection, that made him the guarantor of the better covenant. Scripture also states several causal and correlative means of justification, one of which is the blood of Jesus (Rom. 5:9), and as far as the op goes, that makes the question asked therein a false dichotomy unless the answer is an emphatic "Yes!" which is what was posted and explained in Post 23.

And the next time someone asks, "What does scripture state?" the correct answer is to quote relevant scripture not post ad hominem.

 

[brightfame52]

josheb

" The scriptures state it was his oath, not his death or his resurrection, that made him the guarantor of the better covenant. S

That means the elect were Justified from eternity even when Christ was made a surety in the everlasting covenant of Grace, so the sins and condemnation they incurred in themselves and in their natural head Adam were never legally charged to them, imputed to them, since Christ was already setup as Surety. Do you agree with that ?

 

[makesends]

josheb



That means the elect were Justified from eternity even when Christ was made a surety in the everlasting covenant of Grace, so the sins and condemnation they incurred in themselves and in their natural head Adam were never legally charged to them, imputed to them, since Christ was already setup as Surety. Do you agree with that ?

No. To me that is a bit like saying that because in God's eyes, a couple is already married (since they are going to be married), they may as well have sex now. The wedding in Heaven is not consummated until Heaven. There is the one proof of the actual reality of this temporal existence we consider so real, though it is but a vapor compared to the reality of Heaven —that Christ died and was raised here, though the lamb appeared as slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[brightfame52]

No. To me that is a bit like saying that because in God's eyes, a couple is already married (since they are going to be married), they may as well have sex now. The wedding in Heaven is not consummated until Heaven. There is the one proof of the actual reality of this temporal existence we consider so real, though it is but a vapor compared to the reality of Heaven —that Christ died and was raised here, though the lamb appeared as slain from the foundation of the world.

Apparently your understanding is way off friend.

 

[makesends]

Apparently your understanding is way off friend.

FWIW, all of our understanding is way off. Here's a figure:

Consider an enormous —in fact, infinite— universe, where the truth is infinitely way over there, and all of us are way over here trying to get there. Some may be going the wrong direction, nearly opposite, others are heading more-or-less the right direction, still others only a few degrees off, but none of us are less than infinitely wrong.

Be careful that your standard is not measured against you, just as mine will be against me.

 

[makesends]

I asked this question recently at another forum.

Is belief a condition of salvation, or is it an evidence of salvation?

Can you explain your answer with scripture?

Every time I see the title to this thread, I want to click on it —not because it is a new thought, or particularly intriguing, but because it is stated insightfully. I love it.

 

[Josheb]

josheb

That means the elect were Justified from eternity even when Christ was made a surety in the everlasting covenant of Grace, so the sins and condemnation they incurred in themselves and in their natural head Adam were never legally charged to them, imputed to them, since Christ was already setup as Surety. Do you agree with that ?

You had the opportunity to discuss op-relevant material with me and were rude and disrespectful. You do not now get to pretend that didn't happen and act like cogent conversation with you is possible.

Make amends

 

[brightfame52]

You had the opportunity to discuss op-relevant material with me and were rude and disrespectful. You do not now get to pretend that didn't happen and act like cogent conversation with you is possible.

Make amends

No problem

 

[brightfame52]

Justification before God does not happen at the time of faith or believing.

We are justified by the redemptive work of Jesus Christ Ro 3:24. He was made sin for us “that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” 2Co 5:21. Understand that justification is a legal declaration before God that one is righteous, then faith does not cause justification. One must be legally constituted righteous and just by God before he can receive [know it] this fact by faith.

Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Thats the exchange whosoever sins were imputed to Christ, His Righteousness [for Justification] was imputed to them. This is a legal transaction before the Throne of God.

 

[Josheb]

I encourage a study of the Bible's mentions of justification because justification does not occur once and only by one means. Scripture states things like the Romans 3:24 justification by grace (Tit. 3:7), but it also states we are justified by Christ's blood, and elsewhere states we are justified by faith (Rom. 3:28, 5:1; Gal 2:16). Justification comes by diverse means. Not one of them are by works (Gal. 2:16) absent faith (Jms. 2:21-25), or the Law (Gal. 5:4).

 

[ReverendRV]

I encourage a study of the Bible's mentions of justification because justification does not occur once and only by one means. Scripture states things like the Romans 3:24 justification by grace (Tit. 3:7), but it also states we are justified by Christ's blood, and elsewhere states we are justified by faith (Rom. 3:28, 5:1; Gal 2:16). Justification comes by diverse means. Not one of them are by works (Gal. 2:16) absent faith (Jms. 2:21-25), or the Law (Gal. 5:4).

Brother, why do you think the fathers gave us Sola Fide, instead of giving us Sola Fide and Sola Elecktos?

 

[Josheb]

nt