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Belief, a condition or evidence?

Carbon

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I asked this question recently at another forum.

Is belief a condition of salvation, or is it an evidence of salvation?

Can you explain your answer with scripture?
 
Both...

Belief as a Condition, would Conflate with Faith; which is the Condition for Justification, but not for Election...

Belief as Evidence, is not a Condition for Salvation; but is Evidence of Unconditional/Unmerited Election...


The difference between Election and Justification, is at the heart of the A+C Debate. Arminians/Provisionists believe Faith is a Condition for Election, therefore they accept conditional Election; accepting that Running and Willing precede and influence God's Choosing...
 
Slyzyr found this interesting...


Faith IS a Condition for Justification, but not for Election; otherwise they would mean the same thing and be spelled the same way. This Age-Old Debate between Calvinists and Arminians is about Making a Category Mistake. Calvinists make Election and Justification two distinct Categories, Arminians make them into one Amalgamous Category...

Amalgamation makes two things into One thing. Like Monophystism unites Jesus the son of Mary, and the Divine Logos of God; into One Mixed Being, as opposed to One Hypostatic, Unmixed Being...

Provisionism is the Monophystism of Election and Justification...
 
Slyzyr found this interesting...


Faith IS a Condition for Justification, but not for Election; otherwise they would mean the same thing and be spelled the same way. This Age-Old Debate between Calvinists and Arminians is about Making a Category Mistake. Calvinists make Election and Justification two distinct Categories, Arminians make them into one Amalgamous Category...

Amalgamation makes two things into One thing. Like Monophystism unites Jesus the son of Mary, and the Divine Logos of God; into One Mixed Being, as opposed to One Hypostatic, Unmixed Being...

Provisionism is the Monophystism of Election and Justification...
Sometimes my own questions from a while ago, makes me rethink them. And sometimes your answers to my questions from a while ago, make me rethink them even more. 😊
 
Sometimes my own question from a while ago makes me rethink them. And sometimes your answers to my questions from a long time ago make me rethink them even more. 😊
I say the same things as High Theologians, I just try to say them in a Fundamental way. Thanks...

High Theologians who believe in Limited Atonement will say that in Man's perspective All can be Saved; just have Faith. We know that All will not do this. But what if God had another Great Awakening, and all of the sudden everyone started getting Saved? The Harvest would be Great, no matter how many Sermons we Preach on Limited Atonement...

That's God's business...
 
Belief is evidence of conversion.

Scripture? Just for starters, John 6:29.
Agreed.

1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
 
I asked this question recently at another forum.

Is belief a condition of salvation, or is it an evidence of salvation?

I believe the Gospel as the power of God unto salvation can be seen as both a condition for final salvation and as evidence that one is being saved.

Can you explain your answer with scripture?

First, let's address the idea that belief in the Gospel is a condition for final salvation. The Bible does indeed state that those who endure to the end shall be saved (Matthew 24:13). This verse suggests that salvation is not a one-time event but a lifelong journey. Enduring to the end implies a continued faith and trust in Jesus Christ and the message of the Gospel. Belief in the Gospel is therefore essential for one's salvation.

Second, belief in the Gospel can also be viewed as evidence that one is being saved. The natural inclination of a person, apart from the work of God's grace, is to reject and find the preaching of the cross as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18). This means that, without God's intervention, individuals may not accept or understand the significance of the message of salvation through Jesus Christ. However, when someone begins to genuinely believe in the Gospel and its saving power, it can be seen as evidence that God's grace is at work in their life. It demonstrates a spiritual transformation taking place within the individual.

 
I believe the Gospel as the power of God unto salvation can be seen as both a condition for final salvation and as evidence that one is being saved.



First, let's address the idea that belief in the Gospel is a condition for final salvation. The Bible does indeed state that those who endure to the end shall be saved (Matthew 24:13). This verse suggests that salvation is not a one-time event but a lifelong journey. Enduring to the end implies a continued faith and trust in Jesus Christ and the message of the Gospel. Belief in the Gospel is therefore essential for one's salvation.

Second, belief in the Gospel can also be viewed as evidence that one is being saved. The natural inclination of a person, apart from the work of God's grace, is to reject and find the preaching of the cross as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18). This means that, without God's intervention, individuals may not accept or understand the significance of the message of salvation through Jesus Christ. However, when someone begins to genuinely believe in the Gospel and its saving power, it can be seen as evidence that God's grace is at work in their life. It demonstrates a spiritual transformation taking place within the individual.

It is both, Amen...
 
I believe the Gospel as the power of God unto salvation can be seen as both a condition for final salvation and as evidence that one is being saved.



First, let's address the idea that belief in the Gospel is a condition for final salvation. The Bible does indeed state that those who endure to the end shall be saved (Matthew 24:13). This verse suggests that salvation is not a one-time event but a lifelong journey. Enduring to the end implies a continued faith and trust in Jesus Christ and the message of the Gospel. Belief in the Gospel is therefore essential for one's salvation.

Second, belief in the Gospel can also be viewed as evidence that one is being saved. The natural inclination of a person, apart from the work of God's grace, is to reject and find the preaching of the cross as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18). This means that, without God's intervention, individuals may not accept or understand the significance of the message of salvation through Jesus Christ. However, when someone begins to genuinely believe in the Gospel and its saving power, it can be seen as evidence that God's grace is at work in their life. It demonstrates a spiritual transformation taking place within the individual.

Awesome reply. I believe you are on point and explained it well. It is good to be reminded of these truths.
 
I asked this question recently at another forum.

Is belief a condition of salvation, or is it an evidence of salvation?

Can you explain your answer with scripture?
It's both. Faith in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation, because it is the means through which God has chosen to save his people; however, it is also a gift from God, so that no-one may boast.

The thing about the order of the elements in salvation, is that a person cannot be said to be saved, until he has repented and believed in Jesus Christ, even though being born again precedes this, in logical order.

Eph. 2:8-10; John 3 (Jesus and Nicodemus); 1 John 5:1, etc.
 
I asked this question recently at another forum.

Is belief a condition of salvation, or is it an evidence of salvation?

Can you explain your answer with scripture?
I have not read the majority of the posts, so I apologize if my post redundantly overlaps with others.

Technical Usage Fallacy
Several topics and issues come to mind when considering this opening post. First, I'll take a moment to define and explain D. A. Carson's 8th word study fallacy. He calls it "False assumptions about technical meaning." (p. 45) He defines it in the following way. "In this fallacy, an interpreter falsely assumes that a word always or nearly always has a certain technical meaning . . ." (p.45) Usually, when I interact with people on forums, I'll call this fallacy the technical usage fallacy. As Carson points out, the main problem of this fallacy is the failure to recognize that the semantic range of the word is larger than one aspect of the range. In case I just did a flyover, I'll restate the core problem of the fallacy. It is when one illegitimately restricts a word's meaning down to only one aspect of its range of meaning. I'll give a few illustrations to demonstrate this in English.

Consider the word "trunk." We English speakers know very easily that this word has a range of meaning. I can speak of opening the "trunk" of the car. We can visit the zoo and notice the "trunk" of an elephant. One can climb the stairs up to the attic and observe the "trunk" that holds various different things. Also, when mowing the yard one has to dodge the "trunk" of the tree. The point here is that the word, "trunk," has a range of meaning (semantic range). Now we can better understand the basic point of the technical usage fallacy. The fallacy consists of assuming that only one aspect of the range is always or nearly always the meaning. If I restricted the usage of "trunk" to the trunk of an elephant, and I spoke of opening the elephant's trunk with your key at the back of the car . . . well, you get the idea. This is an example of the problem of the technical usage fallacy.

I've seen this fallacy used quite often when non-Calvinists assume that "in Christ" or "in Him" in Ephesians 1:4 means the believer's union with Christ. However, this illegitimately restricts the semantic range, and it also fails to realize that the context itself fights against this interpretation. Carson points to "sanctification" and how it is sometimes used as a one time event, and at other times it is used in the NT to point to a progressive sanctification. Again, the fallacy is to assume a technical usage, that only one aspect of the semantic range is always in play.

This finally brings me to the opening post. I don't see the term "salvation" as a monlithic entity. The term sometimes is all-encompasing of the various aspects of salvation. The term sometimes refers to a part. Sometimes it is focused upon God's action. Sometimes it is focused upon human action. The opening post asks, "
Is belief a condition of salvation, or is it an evidence of salvation?

This largely depends upon how one is understanding the term "salvation." Someone could point to texts that are more focused upon human activity in light of salvation: "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."

One could also point to God's unconditional election as the ultimate ground for the holiness found in those chosen (Eph 1:4). One can also see the various aspects of "salvation" detailed as the passage continues to unfold (Eph 1: 5-11).

I think that often people think in terms of salvation being justificaiton, whereby God now sees one judicially innocent and righteous.

Romans 8 is often called the golden chain of salvation/redemption. Again, this is God-centered text on the topic of salvation, and it includes glorification.

My point here is that we need to consider how the multi-faceted NT use of the term "salvation" impacts answering your question.

Worldview Considerations
Often times, words are invested with extra meanings depending on one's worldview. The word "condition" or "conditional" is one such word. If all that one is saying is that belief comes before a future salvation (as Romans 10 states), then one does not have a problem. However, if by "conditional" or "condition" one means that God's choice of who to save is ultimately conditioned by human action, then I have a severe problem. I don't hold to conditional election because (1) it violates God's self-sufficient nature, (2) libertarian freedom violates man's dependent nature, (3) God can and does cause human beings to fulfill His conditions, especially as a demonstration of God's sufficiency in light of human inability, (4) Romans 9 removes human endeavor/willing as a reason for God's choice.

In short, I disagree with a worldview that holds to libertarian freedom, and that is probably the single most determinative factor for those who hold to conditional election. If we remove the libertarian freedom notion of ultimate human causation, then we can hold to the bilblical view of compatibilism where we can often see God and man both acting (the both/and approach), but God is ultimate (e.g. work out your salvation . . . for it is God who works in you to will and do of His good pleasure).

The point, we must take into account worldview considerations when answering the question posed in the opening post.

Summary
In summary, semantic and worldview issues are critical to understand when seeking to answer the opening post's question. I hope that these thoughts have proven to be helpful. Please, others share your thoughts on what I have written. Is it understandable? Do you agree/disagree? Why? Thanks.
 
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It's both. Faith in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation, because it is the means through which God has chosen to save his people; however, it is also a gift from God, so that no-one may boast.

The thing about the order of the elements in salvation, is that a person cannot be said to be saved, until he has repented and believed in Jesus Christ, even though being born again precedes this, in logical order.

Eph. 2:8-10; John 3 (Jesus and Nicodemus); 1 John 5:1, etc.
I like your both/and approach.
 
I believe the Gospel as the power of God unto salvation can be seen as both a condition for final salvation and as evidence that one is being saved.



First, let's address the idea that belief in the Gospel is a condition for final salvation. The Bible does indeed state that those who endure to the end shall be saved (Matthew 24:13). This verse suggests that salvation is not a one-time event but a lifelong journey. Enduring to the end implies a continued faith and trust in Jesus Christ and the message of the Gospel. Belief in the Gospel is therefore essential for one's salvation.

Second, belief in the Gospel can also be viewed as evidence that one is being saved. The natural inclination of a person, apart from the work of God's grace, is to reject and find the preaching of the cross as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18). This means that, without God's intervention, individuals may not accept or understand the significance of the message of salvation through Jesus Christ. However, when someone begins to genuinely believe in the Gospel and its saving power, it can be seen as evidence that God's grace is at work in their life. It demonstrates a spiritual transformation taking place within the individual.

I really appreciate your nuancing. You spoke of "final salvation" as distinct from others, so you are demonstrating the importance of clearly defining the type of salvation to which you are referring. You also addressed the issue of "being saved," where again you are seeing salvation as a process, so again you are demonstrating the importance of nuancing, which I addressed in post 18. Good post!
 
I really appreciate your nuancing. You spoke of "final salvation" as distinct from others, so you are demonstrating the importance of clearly defining the type of salvation to which you are referring. You also addressed the issue of "being saved," where again you are seeing salvation as a process, so again you are demonstrating the importance of nuancing, which I addressed in post 18. Good post!
I agree his post was awesome.
 
I asked this question recently at another forum.

Is belief a condition of salvation, or is it an evidence of salvation?
Yes.
Can you explain your answer with scripture?
Those with the condition of salvific belief evidence salvific belief 😁. Belief that is merely intellectual assent is not salvific. Neither is belief that is merely that of sinful flesh. Only that which is of the Spirit pleases God and those born anew from above with the Spirit are those who are saved. I am one who reads the opening close of Ephesians 2:8 contiguously, not separately. It is the "by grace through faith" that is the gift of God, not just the "by grace" alone.
 
Greetings,

Faith /believing is an evidence of having been Justified by the object of ones Faith, the Lord Jesus Christ, His Blood and Righteousness Imputed.

Christ Justified the elect before God by baring their sins Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


Then subsequently in time the Justified one is quickened to life by the Spirit and given the Gift of Faith that brings evidence and assurance, persuasion that Christ has Justified them before God by His Blood Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 3:25

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Rom 5:1

Therefore being justified, by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

See its not Faiths role to Justify one before God, but to show it to them so they can receive it and be persuaded of it
 
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