Being a Christian In United States of America

[ChristB4us]

Being a Christian in the United States of America poses the question of how did Babylon USA get this bad?

According to this judgment from God, even Christians participates in this for why He is calling them out of its sins.

Revelation 18th Chapter

Revelation 18:1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

So how did Christians get corrupted and inhabited by devils, foul spirit, and unclean and hateful birds?

By thinking they can receive the Holy Spirit by a sign of tongues or other sensational signs in the flesh for how they are committing spiritual fornication & spiritual adultery.

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

What is the hypocrisy? Knowing this faith that Jesus Christ is in us....

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

And even though they acknowledge Him as dwelling in us, they seek to receive "Him" again, even under the guise of receiving a continual filling of the Spirit or receiving Him by the bread & wine in communion.

2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

So read the cautionary parable of the foolish seeking to be filled with extra oil in the market place.

Matthew 25:1-13 KJV

Do not run the risk of missing out on the Marriage Reception with the Bridegroom, even though you are still art of the Kingdom of Heaven as you will note, the foolish of the ten virgins ae the kingdom of heaven and thus still saved.

We have always been Spirit-filled since salvation as a testimony from God that we are saved.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

That is why all who come to Jesus Christ are promised to never hunger nor thirst again to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

So may God be peradventuring to recover some from this snare of the devil to return to their first love, the Lord Jesus Christ aka the Bridegroom, & seek no more to be filled, for He shall be coming soon for the abiding bride of Christ.

Even shun tongues for private use & pray normally or else continue to speak the utter depths of Satan & be left behind.

Revelation 2:18-25 KJV

 

[Josheb]

Being a Christian in the United States of America poses the question of how did Babylon USA get this bad?

Would you please FIRST justify the premise of "Babylon USA"?

 

[ChristB4us]

Would you please FIRST justify the premise of "Babylon USA"?

Revelation 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

This Babylon is not the Vatican nor Italy as the center of trade as USA is. When a third of the earth is burned up per Revelation 8:7, it is the entire western hemisphere which will include the USA as fitting that description as the center of trade.

USA falls, the world will feel its loss, but if Italy or the Vatican falls, hardly at all, albeit, in Catholic prophesy, the Vatican is to fall as there will be no more Popes, and I suspect they will be misleading by applying scripture about "the head being wounded and yet miraculously healed" when it moves its headquarters to Jerusalem for the One World Church after that calamity in bringing about world peace with that "peace" agreement with Israel. With USA gone, Israel will have no choice but to have its finger on the button to launch nuclear weapons.

Time will tell but I am hoping in the Lord that He has me abiding in Him & His words and enabling me also to be willing to go in leaving my life, and leaving whatever "treasures" I have which currently, thanks to him, I have none, and my loved ones behind in His hands.

 

[Musician]

Would you please FIRST justify the premise of "Babylon USA"?

Yeah it's closer to Sodom and Gomorrah..

 

[Josheb]

First, I appreciate the effort.

Second, please do not force 21st century geo-politics on scripture.

This Babylon is not the Vatican nor Italy as the center of trade

I completely agree.

as USA is.

That has nothing to do with the Babylon of Rev. 18 and does not prove the USA is Babylon.

Do not assume it, PROVE it.

When a third of the earth is burned up per Revelation 8:7, it is the entire western hemisphere which will include the USA as fitting that description as the center of trade.

USA falls, the world will feel its loss, but if Italy or the Vatican falls, hardly at all, albeit, in Catholic prophesy, the Vatican is to fall as there will be no more Popes, and I suspect they will be misleading by applying scripture about "the head being wounded and yet miraculously healed" when it moves its headquarters to Jerusalem for the One World Church after that calamity in bringing about world peace with that "peace" agreement with Israel. With USA gone, Israel will have no choice but to have its finger on the button to launch nuclear weapons.

Time will tell but I am hoping in the Lord that He has me abiding in Him & His words and enabling me also to be willing to go in leaving my life, and leaving whatever "treasures" I have which currently, thanks to him, I have none, and my loved ones behind in His hands.

That could be said of a number of countries throughout history. You have not proven anything. If it cannot be PROVEN the US is Rev. 18's Babylon then everything else in the op fails.

PROVE the USA is the Babylon of Revelation 18.

 

[Josheb]

@ChristB4us,

Focus.

Please do not trot out a bunch of other eschatological claims and predictions we've ALL heard hundreds of times from others. Please do not run around in the discussion like a squirrel, flitting from point to point and scripture to scripture. We've all done that dozens of times in multiple forums, too. Collect your thoughts. Form your case. Try to anticipate the dissent. Make the impeccable case. Start with the one single claim currently in question = The USA is Revelation 18's Babylon.

Do not assume it.

PROVE it.

 

[ChristB4us]

First, I appreciate the effort.

Second, please do not force 21st century geo-politics on scripture.

I completely agree.

That has nothing to do with the Babylon of Rev. 18 and does not prove the USA is Babylon.

Do not assume it, PROVE it.

That could be said of a number of countries throughout history. You have not proven anything. If it cannot be PROVEN the US is Rev. 18's Babylon then everything else in the op fails.

PROVE the USA is the Babylon of Revelation 18.

Only the Lord can prove that to you.

I can only share what He has proven to me.

 

[Arial]

Being a Christian in the United States of America poses the question of how did Babylon USA get this bad?

The Babylon of Revelation is not a particular city. It is the world system of commerce and wealth.

You Tube Voddie Baucham The Great Prostitute Part 1 Revelation 17:1-6. I would post the video but it is longer than the rules allow.

 

[ChristB4us]

The Babylon of Revelation is not a particular city. It is the world system of commerce and wealth.

USA is not a city, and if you consider the implication of how a third of the earth is burned up after the 1st angel spreads the gospel everywhere, since afterwards, the 2nd angel heralds that Babylon USA is fallen, you can see why the New World Order will come about in bringing the mark of the beast system for pooling the remainder of the world's resources for every body else to survive in the coming great tribulation.

Babylon is USA since USA is the center of the world's economy by how China and the rest of the world is made rich by her. Take USA & the entire western hemisphere out, you can see why the New World Order would implement their mark of the beast system for the rest of the world.

You Tube Voddie Baucham The Great Prostitute Part 1 Revelation 17:1-6. I would post the video but it is longer than the rules allow.

Thanks for sharing that.

I do believe the whore is USA that sits on the beast, the EU, that carries her.

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

I believe USA is killing Christians for some time now ( using the pandemic and the vaccine to get Covid- 19 to those that are vulnerable to it ) and will get worse as it will be happening out in the open, since the "woman's" media is serving the beast. Note verse 6. Biden is labelling Trump and MAGA supporters as domestic terrorists rather than trying to serve both political sides of the American people. It is very possible that by militarizing the IRS and other Federal agencies, they will go after conservatives Republicans, whether they are Trump supporters or not.

You have to wonder why the F.B.I. would be tasked for arresting parents that get violent at P.T.A. & school board meetings when there has been no string of reports of that in the news for them to be given that as a major task to undertake. It is because they knew ahead of time that they will be provoking parents by exposing kids to transgenderism, drag queens doing adult performance in front of their little kids, having porn and other "adult" books of kids having sex with adults in the school libraries while somehow, the local authorities are purposefully looking the other way when it comes to that crime of corruption of minors.

Biden deflects any future response from the opposition to LGBTQ+'s ideology as demonizing them just as LGBTQ+ social and political activists are deflecting by calling non-LGBTQ+ as haters and bigots when Biden is demonizing those that oppose LGBTQ+ ideology and the LGBTQ+ are the haters & the bigots to those that do not bow to their ideologies.

Proverbs 29:27An unjust man is an abomination to the just: and he that is upright in the way is abomination to the wicked.

it was a Mason that said "Evil triumphs when good men do nothing". I really believe Masons are laughing at Christians for turning the other cheek, but yet what are the Masons doing? They are doing evil for the purpose of establishing the New World Order.

Problem is, while they are drawing the net in USA, God is coming to judge His House first at the pre great tribulation rapture event.

The New World Order is not going to have the western hemisphere nor USA at all. It will be judged and gone after the rapture event.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Josheb]

Only the Lord can prove that to you.

In other words, you cannot prove it, and the justification for the inability to prove what everyone reading the op is expected to believe is an appeal to extra-biblical revelation.

The Lord has revealed to me that argument is utterly depraved and has no basis in scripture.

I can only share what He has proven to me.

And you were just asked to do so and failed.

Blessedly for you, I am a patient and forbearing man. As I stated in the previous post, if it cannot be PROVEN the US is Revelation 18's Babylon then EVERYTHING else built upon that premise also fails. It is, therefore, very important that you make the case for what it is you are trying to tell others. Scripture tells us many false teachers will exist in the last days. PROVE you are not one of them. I'm a patient and forbearing man. Take your time. Form your argument. Use scripture wherever possible and try to use plainly written/plainly read scripture not scripture wildly interpreted, twisted and contorted to beg the question. Make the case.


Please PROVE the USA is Revelation 18's Babylon.

Second time I have asked.

 

[Arial]

USA is not a city,

Or location. There was a city Babylon, that was utterly destroyed long before John penned Revelation, so his use of Babylon represents something not some place.

I do believe the whore is USA that sits on the beast, the EU, that carries her.

Well, speculation will never arrive at an absolute. And a dispensationalist confirmation bias in reading Revelation, with never considering the possibility that it could be wrong, will never get past speculation to see anything but its own speculation. Missing the message entirely.

if you consider the implication of how a third of the earth is burned up after the 1st angel spreads the gospel everywhere, since afterwards, the 2nd angel heralds that Babylon USA is fallen, you can see why the New World Order will come about in bringing the mark of the beast system for pooling the remainder of the world's resources for every body else to survive in the coming great tribulation.

Babylon is USA since USA is the center of the world's economy by how China and the rest of the world is made rich by her. Take USA & the entire western hemisphere out, you can see why the New World Order would implement their mark of the beast system for the rest of the world.

I checked all of my Bible's and none of them say Babylon USA. Where is the USA getting their wealth from? By trade with other nations, who get their wealth from trade with other nations etc. That is why the beast is on many waters, and the prostitute rides on his back seducing.

 

[ChristB4us]

In other words, you cannot prove it, and the justification for the inability to prove what everyone reading the op is expected to believe is an appeal to extra-biblical revelation.

The Lord has revealed to me that argument is utterly depraved and has no basis in scripture.

And you were just asked to do so and failed.

Blessedly for you, I am a patient and forbearing man. As I stated in the previous post, if it cannot be PROVEN the US is Revelation 18's Babylon then EVERYTHING else built upon that premise also fails. It is, therefore, very important that you make the case for what it is you are trying to tell others. Scripture tells us many false teachers will exist in the last days. PROVE you are not one of them. I'm a patient and forbearing man. Take your time. Form your argument. Use scripture wherever possible and try to use plainly written/plainly read scripture not scripture wildly interpreted, twisted and contorted to beg the question. Make the case.


Please PROVE the USA is Revelation 18's Babylon.

Second time I have asked.

Ask Jesus to confirm or reprove the post shared with you.

Otherwise, I can just turn this around on you by saying prove that USA is NOT Babylon in Revelation 18th chapter.

What is to prevent you or anyone from being obtuse just because they like to mock or antagonize others?

I leave you to God.

 

[Josheb]

Ask Jesus to confirm or reprove the post shared with you.

I did and do and he tells me to ask you to PROVE the completely baseless godless false teaching the USA is Revelation 18's Babylon.

Otherwise, I can just turn this around on you by saying prove that USA is NOT Babylon in Revelation 18th chapter.

No, you could not. That would be called "shifting the onus." It is an abject failure to avoid the personal responsibility for one's own actions. It's also failure to be accountable to others. "No, I don't need to prove what I want others to believe but you have to prove your view." When people demand others do what they refuse to do it is double standards; it is called hypocrisy.

• Failure of personal responsibility, for one's own words.
• Failure to be and accountable to others*
• Shifting onus
• Double standards
• Hypocrisy

There is simply no way in all of heaven and hell something that wrong came from God. No one reading that has to pray and there's no way anyone who did so would hear God say, "Oh, that pile of dross is completely okay; it's not sinful at all." And all this over the refusal to answer one simply very valid and op-relevant request.

PROVE the USA is Revelation 18's Babylon.

Otherwise, I can just turn this around on you by saying prove that USA is NOT Babylon in Revelation 18th chapter.

Do not be under the misguided illusion I won't make my case. I was being kind and giving, providing the opportunity to make the case PROVING the claim made true. If unable to prove the US is Revelation 18's Babylon, then I will gladly 1) show how the opening statement is incorrect, 2) prove the US is not the Babylon of Revelation 18, and 3) provide a thoroughly scripturally-informed alternative.

Of course, that won't be necessary if the case for the claim posted is made, will it? The opportunity for to make that case has availed itself right here, right now, here in this thread and twice, so far, refused. Instead of PROVING the claim, it's "Trash Josh."

James 3:8-10
But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.

I have asked twice, and the request was made politely and respectfully, without rancor, and I have waited patiently despite receiving repeated fallacy. It would have been much faster, much more beneficial, and much Godlier to have simply made the case.

Isaiah 1:18 KJV
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Isaiah 1:18 NAS
"Come now, and let us debate your case,” Says the LORD, “Though your sins are as scarlet, they shall become as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, They shall be like wool.
.

What is to prevent you or anyone from being obtuse just because they like to mock or antagonize others?

Ah, I see. I am obtuse. The problem MUST be me and it cannot possible be anything else. I am obtuse.[ edited by admin, Ad hominem]

Another wasted effort that does nothing whatsoever to prove the US is Revelation 18's Babylon.

I leave you to God.

No, you do not. You cannot leave me to anyone, anything, and especially not to God. That was just another fleshly red herring that does nothing to PROVE the US is Revelation 18's Babylon.

• Failure of personal responsibility, for one's own words
• Failure to be and accountable to others*
• Shifting onus
• Double standards
• Hypocrisy
• Ad hominem
• Red herring

What would Jesus do, having received the above?

All in one single post, and all in avoidance of posting the case proving the US is Rev. 18's Babylon. God is a God of reason. God never inspired fallacy in His people. This is one of the ways He has provided for us to recognize false teaching when we read it. If the case can be made for the US to be Revelation 18's Babylon, then make it and do it without further subterfuge.

Here's the odd part: presumably, before the first sentence of this op was posted you possessed a rational basis for doing so. Presumably before believing that sentence a rational basis for doing so was held. Presumably there is a scripture-filled rational basis for making that claim. The first page of posts hasn't yet been exhausted and the logically necessary conclusion so far is that, presumably, some rational basis for the claim made existed before it was ever believed and before it was ever posted but it will not be posted when requested. So, I am going to ask one more time,


Would you please make the case PROVING the USA is Revelation 18's Babylon?















[* edited for personal accusations]
.

 

[ChristB4us]

Would you please make the case PROVING the USA is Revelation 18's Babylon?

[* edited for personal accusations]
.

The case was presented in the OP.

You said prove it.

And yet the case was presented in the OP.

Whether you agree with it or not, you are free to poke holes in the case presented to reprove it or disagree with it or just not convinced yet to which you can offer why you are not convinced because of A or B or whatever.

Just simply stating "prove it" is akin to being obtuse about the case as presented in the OP.

 

[Josheb]

The case was presented in the OP.

No, it was not. The op is little more than a pile of assumptions, not proof.

I have a lot of questions like the one I am asking now. None of the bold-face highlights correctly apply to the US. 85% of the US population reports believing in God and between 65-70% of them are Christian. The US has the largest Christian population in the world. Ironically, both Israel and Iraq (where ancient Babylon was located) have markedly lower Christian populations. Of further irony is that the US has the largest Jewish population, too! We have more Jews than Israel.

When the actual facts of the US are provided every single sentence in the op fails.

But rather than post all of that failure in a single post I have started small and asked one single, one specific, one very valid, and very op-relevant question:

Would you please make the case PROVING the USA is Revelation 18's Babylon?

And that question has now been asked thrice and each time been met with protest, dissent, avoidance, and denial. It has NOT been met with a reasonable and rational case proving the US is Revelation 18's Babylon.

And yet the case was presented in the OP.

No, the op is a pile of abused scripture.

Whether you agree with it or not, you are free to poke holes in the case presented to reprove it or disagree with it or just not convinced yet to which you can offer why you are not convinced because of A or B or whatever.

I will.

Titus 3:9-11
But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

I did my part. I asked once. I asked twice. I asked thrice and the response were quarrelsome and divisive every single time.

Just simply stating "prove it" is akin to being obtuse about the case as presented in the OP.

Nice ad hominem. I'll add that to the subterfuge chosen instead of an answer to the question asked.

 

[Josheb]

Part 1:

Here's a more thoroughly scriptural, exegetical answer identifying the Babylon of Revelation 18.

The problem with the op is that is starts with chapter 18 and neglects what is stated in the previous chapter of Revelation. Tere are not chapter and verse numbers in the original book of Revelation. The numbers we added later often neglect and disrupt the natural flow of discourse. The relevant part of the narrative begins in chapter 17. Verse 5 of that chapter is where we first read "Babylon" being mentioned. The preceding verses explicitly state, "a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns. The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality," and on her forehead is written the name "Babylon." The whole name written on her forehead is, "Babylon the great, Mother of harlots and of the abominations of the earth." These are the attributes assigned to the woman, Babylon, long before chapter 18 comes into play.

• She sits on a scarlet beast,
• She is clothed in purple and scarlet,
• She is adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls,
• She has a cup full of abominations and unclean consequences of her immorality.

Those are the attributes identifying the harlot called "Babylon." Failing to apply those identifiers is the op's first mistake.

The narrative about the whore Babylon covers two chapters and, jumping ahead, that narrative ends with the statement, “And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." This verse alone should disqualify the op! The US has not killed and does not slay the prophets and saints. There is no evidence it will, in the future, either. I did ask. By this verse alone the op is proved absurd! Blessedly, there is a pile of other evidence in Revelation 17-18.



Proper exegesis of ANY scripture works outwardly from a single verse through its immediately surrounding text, through the book in which it is written as a whole, and then thought the texts of other books in the Bible that the Revelation text itself connects the reader, and then through the Bible as a whole.

• Single verse.
• Immediately surrounding text.
• Local specific narrative.
• The specific book in which the text in question exists.
• Other texts to which the text in question explicitly connects the reader (the text itself makes the connects, NOT extra-biblical doctrines).
• The Bible as a whole.

That is the progression that is supposed to be applied. The principle being applied is that scripture is the first best interpreter of scripture. What that means relevant to this op is that we do not look first to conditions in the 21st century and ignore scripture. Not only is that a post hoc approach, it's thoroughly unscriptural (nowhere does scripture direct us to look to worldly conditions at the expense of scripture). History is supposed to be subjected to scripture, not the other way around.

This is the second and third errors committed in this op.

 

[Josheb]

Part 2:

For the sake of space, I am going to mention only two scriptures that help us identify Babylon. The first is her wearing scarlet and purple, and the second is her being the killer of prophets and saints. If we do a search of "scarlet AND purple" in scripture we find there is one, and only one, place in the entire Bible where this identifier is used. That one single solitary place where scarlet and purple are used in is Exodus chapters 25 through 39. This entire 15-chapter long narrative applies the colors cited in Revelation to the Levitical priesthood and the Old Testament tabernacle. If the practice of using scripture to understand scripture is applied there is only one passage with which we need concern ourselves. In other words, there are NOT multiple options available to us in scripture; there is only one: the Levitical priesthood and its tabernacle. That covers the criteria mentioned at the beginning of the Revelation 17-18 narrative. Jumping ahead to the other "bookend," if we do a search of places where scripture identifies the killers of the prophets and saints, we find there are multiple precedents, but most of them are tradition, not explicit reports in scripture. One explicit example would be the beheading of John the Baptist (Mt. 4:10). Other examples would be the killing of James and Stephen. Generic reports in scripture can be found in places like Lamentations 4:10, where we read, "Because of the sins of her prophets and the iniquities of her priests, who have shed in her midst the blood of the righteous." More bluntly we have the following,

2 Kings 9:7
You shall strike the house of Ahab your master, that I may avenge the blood of My servants the prophets, and the blood of all the servants of the LORD, at the hand of Jezebel.

Matthew 23:29-31
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.

Luke 11:47-51
Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and it was your fathers who killed them. So you are witnesses and approve the deeds of your fathers; because it was they who killed them, and you build their tombs. For this reason also the wisdom of God said, 'I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute, so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.

These passages identify the murderers of the prophets and saints to be the same people as those wearing purplse and scarlet: the Levitical priesthood, or more generically, the Jewish religious leaders.


In Jesus' own words, the scribes and Pharisees are the sons of those who murdered the prophets.


The book of Revelation was written to the saints who were living in the first century. It was written to them to "show" them what would quickly happen, and it was written to show them what was going to quickly happen because the time was near. Now, whether or not a modern Christian reads the time markers literally or not is irrelevant to the point being made here in this post. Revelation is a revealing. It was written to show things its original readers. Therefore, ANY and ALL interpretations we assign to the harlot, Babylon, MUST be interpretations understandable by those who first read Revelation. There is simply no way the original author, John, nor his original readers of the first century would ever have understood the harlot to be the US because the US dd not exist back then! The principle being applied here is that of first understanding the text as its original author and original readers would have understood it.

This is the fourth error committed in this op: it fails to first understand and apply the text as its original readers would have understood it.



The discussion and debate of this op is going to fall into two camps: classic futurists and modern futurists. We ALL expect a final return of Christ, but only the Dispensationally-informed modern futurist argues for things like the US being Babylon. For the sake of my dissent it does not matter whether those reading this post are futurist, the degree they are futurist, or even if they are not futurists. The futurism is irrelevant. Scripture itself identifies only one group as scarlet and purple wearing prophet/saint murderers and that group is NOT the USA. Furthermore, there are at least four fatal errors observable in the opening post of this thread. The errors are not matters of (my) personal opinion, but objectively observable fact. Anyone and everyone can objectively observe and verify the opening post has not examined the entire Revelation "Babylon" narrative. Ignored half the text! Just as objectively verifiable are the facts no other scripture was employed, the scriptures the Revelation 17-18 text itself connects the reader were ignored (instead New Testament texts not specified in Rev. 18 were appealed to, and what is stated in those passages is ignored). So too is the subjugation of scripture to a biased modern secular history observable, along with the failure to read the text as the original recipients would have read it.

1. Ignored chapter 17's identifiers.
2. Failed to apply the basic rules of exegesis, including the use of other scripture.
3. Subjugated scripture to secular history.
4. Ignored the concept of original intent or meaning.

So.... very real and serious flaws are present and a much more whole-scripture alternative is available. Whether the whore of Revelation is past, present, or future, scripture identifies it as old covenant Israel, not 21st century USA.

One last note: there are over 340 Old Testament references in Revelation, and chapters 17-18 are rife with them. There's simply no way they can be ignored and the truth of the text be understood. Depending on the responses, I will walk through the Revelation 17-18 narrative verse by verse as needed but anyone practicing the tools of exegesis will find everything in those two chapters points to old covenant Israel, not the US.

 

[ChristB4us]

Part 1:

Here's a more thoroughly scriptural, exegetical answer identifying the Babylon of Revelation 18.

The problem with the op is that is starts with chapter 18 and neglects what is stated in the previous chapter of Revelation.

• She sits on a scarlet beast,
• She is clothed in purple and scarlet,
• She is adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls,
• She has a cup full of abominations and unclean consequences of her immorality.

Those are the attributes identifying the harlot called "Babylon." Failing to apply those identifiers is the op's first mistake.

The link to Revelation 18th chapter was provided in the OP.

The case of the OP was not based on the assumption that Babylon was USA but testifying that it is, as the case presented was about how Christians in America were involved in this whoredom and how.

So going off topic from the OP, due to your protest, we go to Revelation 18th chapter for why I say that USA is that Babylon for those that have read it before replying. I had addressed your off topic in post #3 by the scriptures provided from Revelation 18th chapter by showing USA as the center of trade in the world for why it cannot be Italy or the Vatican. Its prophesied doom is why the New World Order will come about in signaling the end of the world as we know it to be in bringing about the great tribulation; thus the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth forcing every one small and great to take the mark of the beast to buy & sell which will incur the judgment of going to the lake of fire if they do.

Your reply thanked me for the effort in post # 5 and yet you kept on insisting on me to prove it.

I had forgotten that I had answered your request in post #3 rather than the OP only because you kept on insisting I had failed to present the case which was not the actual representation in the OP. So I admit I lost track of the discussion and apologized for that but not wrong about how you were ignoring the answer to your request to prove that USA is Babylon which was in post #3. I kept thinking that the answer was in the OP also but it was not, but in post #3.

So if you wish to continue this side topic, then I turn this around on you for you to prove why you believe Babylon is not USA or at the very least, share your doubts.

 

[Josheb]

The link to Revelation 18th chapter was provided in the OP.

Yes, and it neglects chapter 17, everything stated in chapter 17 pertains to chapter 18. This is a very profound neglected.

The case of the OP was not based on the assumption that Babylon was USA but testifying that it is...

Yes, and that testimony is incorrect, and demonstrably so. Only post hoc abuses of both scripture and the current facts of the USA being one of the most (if not THE most) Christ-believing countries in the world can make the US into Babylon.

, as the case presented was about how Christians in America were involved in this whoredom and how.

So going off topic from the OP...

I do not do off-topic.


The opportunity to make the case for the opening statement was provided and I made it clear any failure to prove the opening claim true would make everything else built upon the opening premise false. It is logically impossible to start with a false foundation and built a scriptural, logical case and reach a scriptural, logical conclusion. I asked once. I asked twice. I asked a third time, and on each occasion, I was polite, respectful, patient, kind forbearing, hopeful, and trusting (See 1 Cor. 13:4-7). Love was shown. I was attacked and never got a question to the question asked. So you had your chance. No more dialogue from me will happen in this thread. I will post a more scriptural alternative and no protests on your part will matter (Tit. 3:9-11).


The US is not the Babylon of Revelation 18. It does NOT meet the criteria stipulated and that remains true even if the criteria of chapters 17 and 8 are taken allegorically and/or anagogically. Even modern-day Israel is a better fit for Rev 17-18's criteria than modern-day USA.

 

[ChristB4us]

Yes, and it neglects chapter 17, everything stated in chapter 17 pertains to chapter 18. This is a very profound neglected.

Yes, and that testimony is incorrect, and demonstrably so. Only post hoc abuses of both scripture and the current facts of the USA being one of the most (if not THE most) Christ-believing countries in the world can make the US into Babylon.

And by its media, putting focus on the Holy Spirit and receiving the Holy Spirit by a sign is how believers were all tempted to commit spiritual adultery which was shown by the scriptures and thus proven in the OP.

I do not do off-topic.

Then feel free to explain the topic of the OP.

The opportunity to make the case for the opening statement was provided and I made it clear any failure to prove the opening claim true would make everything else built upon the opening premise false. It is logically impossible to start with a false foundation and built a scriptural, logical case and reach a scriptural, logical conclusion. I asked once. I asked twice. I asked a third time, and on each occasion, I was polite, respectful, patient, kind forbearing, hopeful, and trusting (See 1 Cor. 13:4-7). Love was shown. I was attacked and never got a question to the question asked. So you had your chance. No more dialogue from me will happen in this thread. I will post a more scriptural alternative and no protests on your part will matter (Tit. 3:9-11).


The US is not the Babylon of Revelation 18. It does NOT meet the criteria stipulated and that remains true even if the criteria of chapters 17 and 8 are taken allegorically and/or anagogically. Even modern-day Israel is a better fit for Rev 17-18's criteria than modern-day USA.

The bodies of the left behind saints are found in her if you read all the way to the end of Revelation 18th chapter.

As it is, you have to prove that Babylon is not USA in spite of it being the center of commerce in the world as if USA being gone would not bring about the need for the New World Order & the mark of the beast system.

So hop to it; prove that Babylon is NOT USA. Because like it or not, Christians and her churches are not the center of commerce in all the world, but they are responsible for the whoredom for why God is calling believers to come out of that apostasy.