Being a Christian In United States of America

[David1701]

LOL!

I'm going to apologize to you while attacking you in the same sentence. That's a special kind of twisted called gaslighting. Apologies are an accepted social convention but they are not scriptural, but I'll accept it believing it sincere despite the gaslighting.

None of which proves the USA is Babylon. None of which disproves Israel is not Babylon. Do not expect me to digress because my request was treated with rudeness and disrespect and you now want to off-topically justify it. If you're trully repentant then the topic of Babylon's identity will be discussed and it will be discussed politely, respectfully, reasonably, rationally, cogently and coherently with well-rendered scripture. When that happens there is never any need to mention any poster, other than to say, "Well done."

So stow the apology and let your posts' content evidence a godly change.


Israel, not the US, is the Babylon of Revelation 17-18. Over the centuries various individuals, groups, and institutions have been labeled Revelation 17-18's Babylon. Most notably, over the last 5-600 years the Roman Catholic Church has been an frequent object of disdain and accusation because Roman Catholic priests sometimes where garments of purple and scarlet. The false-cause reasoning goes, "Because they too wear purple and scarlet and consider themselves a New Testament extension of the Old Testament clergy they are the modern Babylon," but there are too many contradictions for that argument to be true.

Simply put, the Roman Catholic Church did not exist in the first century when John wrote Revelation. Neither he nor his original readers would ever have thought, "Oh! Babylon is the future RCC!" and they most definitely would never have thought that over the existing scarlet-and-purple-wearing, prophet-and-saint-killing Jewish clergy. I expect any dissent to accurately reflect a sincere apology.

Israel, not the US, is the Babylon of Revelation 17-18.

There is a great deal more evidence that Romanism is the "Babylon" of Rev. 17, 18 than the wearing of purple and scarlet (I know that you know this, because we've discussed it before...).

Romanism is the continuation of the false religion found in the Roman Empire (although it didn't originate there), of which the Roman Caesars were the head. The latter Roman Caesars had the religious title "Pontifex Maximus" (transferred to them by pagan priests). This title then passed on to the so-called "Pope" of Rome (one of his titles of blasphemy).

The "Holy Father" (another title of blasphemy) sits in the temple of God (the professing church) proclaiming that he has all authority in heaven, on earth and under the earth (that is what his three-tiered tiara represents).

He claims that all Christians must accept his primacy, in order to be saved.

The RC organisation is drunk with the blood of the saints, having tortured and murdered millions, over many centuries.

She holds out a cup to the nations (it's one of her symbols) and has great wealth.

The leaders of the world make obeisance to the Pontiff, kneeling and kissing his ring in submission.

etc, etc..

 

[ChristB4us]

It's relatively easy to prove that many of the RC distinctives are unscriptural. There is absolutely no need to claim divine insight that others do not have; in fact, that would be grist to their mill.

Then why are Catholics not receiving the truth in scriptures if it can be easily proven?

Matthew 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

So when I am at an impasse in a discussion with someone, and for some reason they keep skipping over the scriptures that testify to what I am sharing, or apply it as if it does not really mean that without actually saying what Jesus is really talking about, like why He is saying that, I have to believe that a church's teaching is not allowing them to receive the truth for why they are not seeing the truth in His words on an issue.

Like the RCC, Catholics do not want to believe that their church led them wrong and so it is with anyone else for why I have to not argue the point since He helped me to see this truth, then it is on Him to do the same for others as well. The truth is right there in scripture but something is blinding them or else they just do not want to believe it to be true, but only Jesus can help them for why I ask for others to pray.

And yes, I pray for them too when the Lord remind me to do it.

Thanks to Him, I can see the truth in the scriptures about the pre great tribulation rapture and how they are align for when God will judge His House first by excommunicating those not found abiding in Him but in iniquity which are works that deny Him for why He would deny them. This does not mean they are not saved because He will finish His work in them to his glory by burning off of that foundation that offends Him and that defiles the temple of God, but the spirit is saved even though they will incur physical death by fire or by the beast waging war on them.

Like it or not, USA is that Babylon in Revelation 18th chapter & the left behind saints are found dead in her which is after the rapture because the voice of the bridegroom and bride will no longer be heard in her any more because the door is now shut to the Marriage Supper above as found in Revelation 19:1-10.

 

[David1701]

Then why are Catholics not receiving the truth in scriptures if it can be easily proven?

There are two main reasons:

1) RCs get much of their doctrine from man-made traditions, not Scripture.

2) They are in an idolatrous, fake church, which is accompanied by spiritual blindness.

 

[Josheb]

There is a great deal more evidence that Romanism is the "Babylon" of Rev. 17, 18 than the wearing of purple and scarlet (I know that you know this, because we've discussed it before...).

I disagree.

Original intent and meaning refutes the premise. Given the conditions of the first century, and the contexts of scripture found throughout Revelation the original author and his original readers would not have understood what they read as "Romanism," but as a reference to the Levitical priesthood.

Romanism is the continuation of the false religion found in the Roman Empire...

The first century Christian had no way of understanding or knowing that.

Your argument is something akin to reading a 1987 prediction about the Ford Quadricycle and concluding that article was about the Uchiyama Takuri or even the 2007 Elfin Clubman because it has four wheels and a steering wheel. Just because the RCC has similar or identical traits as the Revelation text does not mean it is the subject of the prophecy. Aside from the fact that is a post hoc argument, its also a false equivalence contradicted by the principle of original intent and meaning.

Another comparison is the Dispensationalist belief modern Israel is prophecy fulfilled. An examination of the scriptures foretelling Israel's restoration readily show modern Israel does not (yet) meet the metrics of scripture. Yes, there is a country on the east end of the Mediterranean Sea with the name "Israel," but it lacks many of the attributes of Old Testament covenant Israel to whom those promises were made. Modern Israel is NOT Israel restored. It's mere existence is not proof of anything prophetic.

The mere existence of red and purple (and all else you posted) is not proof of anything prophet. The argument could even be argued to be a plant from Satan to distract Christians from understanding the true meaning of the Revelation text as originally intended by John and as originally understood by his first century readers.

 

[David1701]

I disagree.

Original intent and meaning refutes the premise. Given the conditions of the first century, and the contexts of scripture found throughout Revelation the original author and his original readers would not have understood what they read as "Romanism," but as a reference to the Levitical priesthood.

The first century Christian had no way of understanding or knowing that.

Your argument is something akin to reading a 1987 prediction about the Ford Quadricycle and concluding that article was about the Uchiyama Takuri or even the 2007 Elfin Clubman because it has four wheels and a steering wheel. Just because the RCC has similar or identical traits as the Revelation text does not mean it is the subject of the prophecy. Aside from the fact that is a post hoc argument, its also a false equivalence contradicted by the principle of original intent and meaning.

Another comparison is the Dispensationalist belief modern Israel is prophecy fulfilled. An examination of the scriptures foretelling Israel's restoration readily show modern Israel does not (yet) meet the metrics of scripture. Yes, there is a country on the east end of the Mediterranean Sea with the name "Israel," but it lacks many of the attributes of Old Testament covenant Israel to whom those promises were made. Modern Israel is NOT Israel restored. It's mere existence is not proof of anything prophetic.

The mere existence of red and purple (and all else you posted) is not proof of anything prophet. The argument could even be argued to be a plant from Satan to distract Christians from understanding the true meaning of the Revelation text as originally intended by John and as originally understood by his first century readers.

The first century Christian would have realised that it referred to the pagan Roman religion. He didn't need to know about its later adaptations. That pagan religion continues, in the Roman Catholic institution nowadays (thinly disguised as Christianity).

 

[Josheb]

The first century Christian would have realised that it referred to the pagan Roman religion.

There wasn't any "pagan Roman religion" in the first century because Rome and its empire was poly-religious and poly-theistic.

He didn't need to know about its later adaptations.

Then he did not know its meaning, the meaning of the text. It is self-contradictory to say the reader would have realized X..... the reader did not know about X. That would mean the reader realized what he did not know.

That pagan religion continues, in the Roman Catholic institution nowadays (thinly disguised as Christianity).

Post hoc argument.

 

[ChristB4us]

There are two main reasons:

1) RCs get much of their doctrine from man-made traditions, not Scripture.

Well, to be fair, they misapply scripture for some of their traditions like for the Mass and treating the bread as if it is actual Christ's body from John 6th chapter but in context, Jesus was never talking about communion but how we can receive that bread of life by coming to & believing in Him since they did ask Him for that bread.

They insist that Catholics go to them for the proper interpretation of scriptures but cannot answer those scriptures that opposes and proves that they are misapplying scripture for the purpose of conquering the laity into submissions to works within her to fleece them for a guaranteed revenue.

2) They are in an idolatrous, fake church, which is accompanied by spiritual blindness.

Yep.

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Which is why whenever I am at an impasse with anyone in any discussion and they keep glossing over the truth in scripture as if scripture did not really mean that, is why I ask them to pray to the Lord in the event that they may be blinded to the truth due to a teaching from their church.

Course, we are to pray for them as well that the Lord will open their eyes and ears to see and hear the truth in His words as then the Lord will turn them from ungodliness.

 

[David1701]

There wasn't any "pagan Roman religion" in the first century because Rome and its empire was poly-religious and poly-theistic.

I'm well aware that the Roman Empire, in general, was poly-religious and polytheistic; however, the latter Caesars declared themselves to be god-men and were given the title "Pontifex Maximus" (Greatest Bridge-builder (in a religious sense, allegedly building a bridge between man and God/gods)). There were many false religions, but they were all under the primacy of the Caesar. This is just like nowadays, in which the Roman "Pontifex Maximus" declares himself to be God's representative on Earth and to have primacy over all religions. The baton has been passed on.

Then he did not know its meaning, the meaning of the text. It is self-contradictory to say the reader would have realized X..... the reader did not know about X. That would mean the reader realized what he did not know.

What? Of course they knew about the Roman Caesars and their claim to religious pre-eminence.

Post hoc argument.

Post hoc knowledge about subsequent developments. They knew what they needed to know and we know what we need to know (application of continuing principles to current realities).

Romanism is not something new; it is the continuation of what existed in the 1st C. A.D. (and before).

 

[David1701]

Well, to be fair, they misapply scripture for some of their traditions like for the Mass and treating the bread as if it is actual Christ's body from John 6th chapter but in context, Jesus was never talking about communion but how we can receive that bread of life by coming to & believing in Him since they did ask Him for that bread.

I know that they misapply Scripture for some of their false teachings, which is why I said that much (not all) of their false teaching comes from man-made traditions.

They insist that Catholics go to them for the proper interpretation of scriptures but cannot answer those scriptures that opposes and proves that they are misapplying scripture for the purpose of conquering the laity into submissions to works within her to fleece them for a guaranteed revenue.

Yep.

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Which is why whenever I am at an impasse with anyone in any discussion and they keep glossing over the truth in scripture as if scripture did not really mean that, is why I ask them to pray to the Lord in the event that they may be blinded to the truth due to a teaching from their church.

Course, we are to pray for them as well that the Lord will open their eyes and ears to see and hear the truth in His words as then the Lord will turn them from ungodliness.

What should happen when someone is at an impasse with you? Could that happen, or are you perfect?

 

[ChristB4us]

I know that they misapply Scripture for some of their false teachings, which is why I said that much (not all) of their false teaching comes from man-made traditions.


What should happen when someone is at an impasse with you? Could that happen, or are you perfect?

Well I know I am not perfect yet which is the high prize of our calling by faith in Jesus Christ to help me lay aside every weight & sin daily in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son, and so I hope those that oppose what I am sharing will pray for me as I do for them by His grace & by His help.

It is His ministry in any iron sharpen iron discussion and so rather than get mad or argue the matter, just hope in him that He will help us to recognize that there is no need to do that when the weight of the ministry is on Him to cause the increase.

 

[Josheb]

Post hoc knowledge about subsequent developments.

That have nothing to do with the revelation of Revelation as understood by its original readers.


And when it comes to "being a Christian in the United States of America" this proves important because there a pile of Christians running around America telling us to look here and look there for things that never come all the while never living as if they really believe the rapture, the tribulation and/or the return of Christ is actually soon at hand. They tell anyone who will listen, "Soon! Soon! The time is near! The time is near! He's coming soon!" deplorably, hypocritically, oblivious to the fact the use the words with their normal, ordinary meaning but refuse to read scripture that way. When asked to specify what they mean by "soon," "How soon?" How near?" they become silent or shrug their shoulders and hide behind "No one knows the day or hour!" They say "Soon!" and "Near!" and expect everyone to take them at their word and treat "soon" to mean son and "near" to mean near, but they criticize, accuse, disdain, and hold in contempt anyone who reads scripture that way. They invent twisted explanations for how scripture should not be read in the exact manner they expect their audience to read their words. Their teachers have been doing this for nearly two centuries and not a single one of them have ever been correct. Every single one of them, down to each individual man or woman, have been a false teacher and no one in their group does anything to stop the malfeasance or the wretched misleading of thousands. The hypocrisy piles on top of hypocrisy.

And the unbelievers watch and listen and think, "I do not want to be a liar like you," and wonders "Why would I want to join such a misguided self-deceived, scripture ignoring bunch of control freaks?" oblivious to their need in Christ because the constantly-prognosticating make-everything-about-end-times, scripture-twisting hypocrites make Christ look he can't make up his mind.


A Christian should ignore all of it and live a life so exemplary that the example draws the dying into curious conversation interested in how a Christian can be so consistently kind, patient, caring, compassionate, moral, knowing, wise, and humble amidst the insanity of both the daily newscast and the harangue of end-timers. A Christian living in America should do what the end-timers won't do themselves and confront the nonsense of absurdities like....

Being a Christian in the United States of America poses the question of how did Babylon USA get this bad?

The USA is not Babylon, things have been much worse elsewhere before and may do so again any number of times in the future, and Christians who fallaciously argue false equivalences do so in the flesh, not the Spirit. At least God has not killed all flesh on the planet except for eight people.

RCC-ragging is just a variation on the same themes described above. It distracts Christians from doing what they are supposed to be doing no matter where they are and how good or bad the times may be.

 

[David1701]

Well I know I am not perfect yet which is the high prize of our calling by faith in Jesus Christ to help me lay aside every weight & sin daily in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son, and so I hope those that oppose what I am sharing will pray for me as I do for them by His grace & by His help.

It is His ministry in any iron sharpen iron discussion and so rather than get mad or argue the matter, just hope in him that He will help us to recognize that there is no need to do that when the weight of the ministry is on Him to cause the increase.

I want to make it clear that I'm not angry with you; however, you seem much more inclined to declare than listen (I'm sure that can change).

 

[David1701]

That have nothing to do with the revelation of Revelation as understood by its original readers.

It does have something to do with how Revelation would have been understood by its original readers. We can see how things developed. That does not change the meanings in the book, but we can see more of how they played out over time.

And when it comes to "being a Christian in the United States of America" this proves important because there a pile of Christians running around America telling us to look here and look there for things that never come all the while never living as if they really believe the rapture, the tribulation and/or the return of Christ is actually soon at hand. They tell anyone who will listen, "Soon! Soon! The time is near! The time is near! He's coming soon!" deplorably, hypocritically, oblivious to the fact the use the words with their normal, ordinary meaning but refuse to read scripture that way. When asked to specify what they mean by "soon," "How soon?" How near?" they become silent or shrug their shoulders and hide behind "No one knows the day or hour!" They say "Soon!" and "Near!" and expect everyone to take them at their word and treat "soon" to mean son and "near" to mean near, but they criticize, accuse, disdain, and hold in contempt anyone who reads scripture that way. They invent twisted explanations for how scripture should not be read in the exact manner they expect their audience to read their words. Their teachers have been doing this for nearly two centuries and not a single one of them have ever been correct. Every single one of them, down to each individual man or woman, have been a false teacher and no one in their group does anything to stop the malfeasance or the wretched misleading of thousands. The hypocrisy piles on top of hypocrisy.

Good points.

And the unbelievers watch and listen and think, "I do not want to be a liar like you," and wonders "Why would I want to join such a misguided self-deceived, scripture ignoring bunch of control freaks?" oblivious to their need in Christ because the constantly-prognosticating make-everything-about-end-times, scripture-twisting hypocrites make Christ look he can't make up his mind.

Yes, it's a bad witness.

A Christian should ignore all of it and live a life so exemplary that the example draws the dying into curious conversation interested in how a Christian can be so consistently kind, patient, caring, compassionate, moral, knowing, wise, and humble amidst the insanity of both the daily newscast and the harangue of end-timers. A Christian living in America should do what the end-timers won't do themselves and confront the nonsense of absurdities like....

The USA is not Babylon, things have been much worse elsewhere before and may do so again any number of times in the future, and Christians who fallaciously argue false equivalences do so in the flesh, not the Spirit. At least God has not killed all flesh on the planet except for eight people.

Agreed - and it applies just as well to Britain and other countries, not only America.

RCC-ragging is just a variation on the same themes described above. It distracts Christians from doing what they are supposed to be doing no matter where they are and how good or bad the times may be.

RC-ragging is rather a pejorative description. Warning people about a maelstrom is a good thing to do. I might just as well talk about Dispy-ragging; but I won't, because I recognise that warnings about false systems and false teaching are useful and beneficial to God's people. Of course I don't have any relatives in Romanism (any more), so I have no emotional ties to muddy the waters.

 

[ChristB4us]

I want to make it clear that I'm not angry with you; however, you seem much more inclined to declare than listen (I'm sure that can change).

I am glad in the Lord that you are not angry with me.

BUT I am also applying my earlier post to myself for why at some points I just give up and give it to the Lord since it is His ministry. It is not on me to convince any one for why when I come to an impasse that I just ask the other believer to pray for wisdom as I will for that poster & for myself too in all things. That is applying Christ's love to towards the body of Christ & yes, I need His help to do that too for I can do nothing without Him in living that reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Josheb]

It does have something to do with how Revelation would have been understood by its original readers.

No, it does not. No one can understand things that will happen hundreds and thousands of years later. The very premise is self-contradicting.

"Insects clothed in yellow and black will devour cease their normal function and all flesh upon the earth will die."​

An ordinary person would read that to indicate bees will cease pollinating plants and flowers and humans will die because they have no crops. Most would also read that with some degree of hyperbole because God does mean or want ALL humanity to cease to exist. What they would not understand is some 2000 years from now saying "There were false teachers in ancient times who over the course of centuries began wearing garments of yellow and black and they stopped feeding people spiritually and that is what the faux verse in question was originally about. Viewing history long after the fact, we can see how things developed.

We can see how things developed. That does not change the meanings in the book, but we can see more of how they played out over time.

It does change the meaning of the book. That is the whole point. Read the verse as written with the normal meaning of the words in ordinary usage as intended by the original author and understood by his original audience, the first century reader. Do that unless there is something in the immediately surrounding text indicating a reason to do otherwise.

Good points.

Yes, it's a bad witness.

Agreed - and it applies just as well to Britain and other countries, not only America.

And I respectfully assert the RC-ragging is closer to this than perhaps you're prepared to acknowledge. There are very real, very substantive, and therefore very serious problems in RCCism so your concerns are valid, but that does not make them eschatological. I suppose if you were an Idealist (are you?) then there is a certain sense in which RCCism is eschatological, but Idealism takes a very allegorical view of all scripture and does not consider Revelation very predictive in any prophetic sense.

RC-ragging is rather a pejorative description.

Just calling it like I see it. Remember: you and I have had some lengthy conversation on this subject over the past few years. I'll add I have always respected the respect received and commend your example to all others because this is how disagreement should be handled.

Warning people about a maelstrom is a good thing to do.

Yes, it is and I will happily join you any day in the RCC board of any forum in an effort to help or Catholic brethren see a more scripturally consistent view of Christianity. But I will also work conscientiously not to criticize my brothers and sisters personally or without warrant. I believe I have done that already in threads like this one, HERE.

That does not make them the harlot reference in reference in Revelation 17-18 (or John's antichrist, or an eschatological Babylon) and it certainly does not necessitate the first century Christian reading it that way.

I might just as well talk about Dispy-ragging; but I won't, because I recognise that warnings about false systems and false teaching are useful and beneficial to God's people. Of course I don't have any relatives in Romanism (any more), so I have no emotional ties to muddy the waters.

Yes, but part of my point was to illustrate the parallel. Yes, it would have been more substantive if Dispies wore red and scarlet but I could have used the Anglicans or Lutherans or any "high church" liturgical sect to make a similar argument. The larger point is that while the RCC clerics do (under certain conditions) wear purple and scarlet, that's not what the first century reader would ever have grasped and a Christian in the 21st century has to abdicate - willfully ignore - a handful of the most basic, basic, basic, basic precepts in sound exegesis to get from the Revelation 17-18 harlot to the Roman Catholic Church.

No one in the first century would ever have thought the whore Babylon was the RCC. They would have recognized that as a reference to the Levitical priesthood and the covenant-breaking, often idolatrous harlot Israel upon whom the guilt for the prophets' shed blood was falling. Anytime Jesus was speaking in the temple, there was a very real possibility some in his audience were wearing scarlet and purple.

None of them were Roman, though.

I'll let you have the last word because I see no reason to further belabor the point between us or for the lurkers. Despite the disparity in views, we can agree Christians today should avoid both the idolatry and departure from scripture found in both modern futurism and RCCism. America is not the Babylon of Revelation.

 

[Mr GLee]

Being a Christian in the United States of America poses the question of how did Babylon USA get this bad?

Where did you receive the info?That would seem to be false prophecy .The focus is on the heavenly Jerusalem not seen using the earthly as a shadow .

 

[Mr GLee]

Revelation 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Babylon- - - - - the gate of the false gods, smoke of her burning ."The whole earth under the will of the father of lies .The god of this world called legion

No signs were given to wonder after .It's a evil generation that does look for signs .We have prophecy til the end of time sealed with 7 seals

 

[David1701]

I am glad in the Lord that you are not angry with me.

BUT I am also applying my earlier post to myself for why at some points I just give up and give it to the Lord since it is His ministry. It is not on me to convince any one for why when I come to an impasse that I just ask the other believer to pray for wisdom as I will for that poster & for myself too in all things. That is applying Christ's love to towards the body of Christ & yes, I need His help to do that too for I can do nothing without Him in living that reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ.

Thanks for sharing.

Okay, thanks. I'll leave it there.

 

[David1701]

No, it does not. No one can understand things that will happen hundreds and thousands of years later. The very premise is self-contradicting.

Aargh! I know that; and that is not what I meant.

From my perspective, the 1st C. reader would understand Babylon to refer to the pagan system in the Roman Empire, headed by the self-proclaimed god-man, Caesar, together with his claim that all religions come under his primacy. This is entirely unaffected by later developments in the pagan Roman system, in which the title of Pontifex Maximus is passed from the Roman Caesar, to the Roman "Pope". It's still the same system, just some of the details have changed.

When we apply the principles in Rev. now, we apply them to the details pertaining now, details about which the 1st C. reader had neither knowledge, nor the need for it. In other words, the reference to the Babylonish system was true then, and remains true now.

"Insects clothed in yellow and black will devour cease their normal function and all flesh upon the earth will die."​

An ordinary person would read that to indicate bees will cease pollinating plants and flowers and humans will die because they have no crops. Most would also read that with some degree of hyperbole because God does mean or want ALL humanity to cease to exist. What they would not understand is some 2000 years from now saying "There were false teachers in ancient times who over the course of centuries began wearing garments of yellow and black and they stopped feeding people spiritually and that is what the faux verse in question was originally about. Viewing history long after the fact, we can see how things developed.

I understand the illustration, but I don't agree that it applies here. Revelation is full of prophetic imagery (e.g. mystery Babylon is clearly not literal Babylon). Also, I'm not talking about something that would require modern knowledge to understand. I'm applying the principles (and they continue to be relevant) to the modern expression of what has existed since that time.

It does change the meaning of the book. That is the whole point. Read the verse as written with the normal meaning of the words in ordinary usage as intended by the original author and understood by his original audience, the first century reader. Do that unless there is something in the immediately surrounding text indicating a reason to do otherwise.

Revelation is not a book in which that approach works. The words are very often not used with their normal meanings, but in symbolic ways that are hard to understand, requiring knowledge of how those symbols were used in the OT.

And I respectfully assert the RC-ragging is closer to this than perhaps you're prepared to acknowledge. There are very real, very substantive, and therefore very serious problems in RCCism so your concerns are valid, but that does not make them eschatological. I suppose if you were an Idealist (are you?) then there is a certain sense in which RCCism is eschatological, but Idealism takes a very allegorical view of all scripture and does not consider Revelation very predictive in any prophetic sense.

I believe RCism to be the continuation (and epitome) of the false religion that has existed since the book of Genesis. It is the devil's counterfeit church and the "Pope" is the office of anti-Christ. God's people must be warned to come out of her (and her harlot daughters, of which there are many).

Just calling it like I see it. Remember: you and I have had some lengthy conversation on this subject over the past few years. I'll add I have always respected the respect received and commend your example to all others because this is how disagreement should be handled.

Yes, it is and I will happily join you any day in the RCC board of any forum in an effort to help or Catholic brethren see a more scripturally consistent view of Christianity. But I will also work conscientiously not to criticize my brothers and sisters personally or without warrant. I believe I have done that already in threads like this one, HERE.

No argument here.

That does not make them the harlot reference in reference in Revelation 17-18 (or John's antichrist, or an eschatological Babylon) and it certainly does not necessitate the first century Christian reading it that way.

They (the people) are not the harlot, but the system is. The 1st C. Christian would have applied it to the Roman Empire, with its emperor-worship. Its spiritual component still exists, under the Pontifex Maximus, only some details have changed.

Yes, but part of my point was to illustrate the parallel. Yes, it would have been more substantive if Dispies wore red and scarlet but I could have used the Anglicans or Lutherans or any "high church" liturgical sect to make a similar argument. The larger point is that while the RCC clerics do (under certain conditions) wear purple and scarlet, that's not what the first century reader would ever have grasped and a Christian in the 21st century has to abdicate - willfully ignore - a handful of the most basic, basic, basic, basic precepts in sound exegesis to get from the Revelation 17-18 harlot to the Roman Catholic Church.

Roman Empire -> Roman Catholicism - Spiritually speaking, they are one and the same.

No one in the first century would ever have thought the whore Babylon was the RCC. They would have recognized that as a reference to the Levitical priesthood and the covenant-breaking, often idolatrous harlot Israel upon whom the guilt for the prophets' shed blood was falling. Anytime Jesus was speaking in the temple, there was a very real possibility some in his audience were wearing scarlet and purple.

Much of the imagery does not fit that interpretation; but it does fit Rome.

None of them were Roman, though.

I'll let you have the last word because I see no reason to further belabor the point between us or for the lurkers. Despite the disparity in views, we can agree Christians today should avoid both the idolatry and departure from scripture found in both modern futurism and RCCism. America is not the Babylon of Revelation.

America is definitely not the Babylon of Revelation, on that we certainly agree. I also agree that Dispensationalism and RCism are to be avoided.

 

[ChristB4us]

Where did you receive the info?That would seem to be false prophecy .The focus is on the heavenly Jerusalem not seen using the earthly as a shadow .

Babylon is the leading economic power of trade in the world for why the merchants of the sea are weeping over her having fallen per Revelation 18th chapter, and this event occurs after the rapture event per the testimony of the living 144,000 honest virgin men that were redeemed ( raptured ) from the earth in Revelation 14:1-5.

The rapture is when that first angel will testify of the everlasting gospel to every living person left behind on earth Revelation 14:6-7, ( including the unrepentant saints in iniquity and former believers for not being ready for the Bridegroom, even though they are still saved, but missed out on the Marriage Supper in Heaven per Revelation 19:1-10 )

This will include new believers on earth as a result of that rapture and that everlasting gospel spread to all the world before that "end" shall come as prophesied in Matthew 24:14 which is the fall of Babylon as testified in Revelation 14:8 by that 2nd angel.

Then that 3d angel testifies to all the world of the consequence for taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell in the coming New World Order which will be as of the result of that global calamity where USA Babylon gets burned up in that third of the earth per Revelation 8:7.

So those 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth with everyone in the rest of the 2/3rds parts of the world knowing the everlasting gospel, the fall of USA Babylon, & the consequence for taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell in order to survive in the coming New World Order which is the lake of fire.

That hour of temptation is what Jesus warned the church at Philadelphia about to escape by holding fast or else in Revelation 3:7-11

So Israel cannot be Babylon when Israel is still around for why that peace treaty will come about, to let Israel built that third Temple in Jerusalem because Israel's biggest ally, USA Babylon, is gone due to that fiery calamity in that western hemisphere which providentially is one third of the earth on the global map.

With Babylon USA gone and Israel's finger on the button to launch her nukes, her enemies will be quick to persuade her not to launch her nukes.

Therefore Babylon in Revelation 18th chapter cannot be that heavenly Jerusalem in that wise either.

That is where I had receive that info that Christians got that bad in Babylon USA because of the spiritual fornication they were committing against the Lord as explained in Revelation 18th chapter for why and how they had missed out on the Marriage Supper held in heaven in Revelation 19:1-10. That is the inevitable conclusion the Lord has led me to see in truth in the scripture.

So where did you get your information? Are you insinuating that the heavenly Jerusalem is Babylon for NOT using the earthly as her shadow?

The focus is on the heavenly Jerusalem not seen using the earthly as a shadow .

You will have to explain that one for me to understand at least your point of view, even though I do not believe that is the truth in scripture.