Being a Christian In United States of America

[ChristB4us]

@Josheb

I apologize to the Lord & to you for following after your example in roughness.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

 

[Josheb]

@Josheb

I apologize to the Lord & to you for following after your example in roughness.

LOL!

I'm going to apologize to you while attacking you in the same sentence. That's a special kind of twisted called gaslighting. Apologies are an accepted social convention but they are not scriptural, but I'll accept it believing it sincere despite the gaslighting.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

None of which proves the USA is Babylon. None of which disproves Israel is not Babylon. Do not expect me to digress because my request was treated with rudeness and disrespect and you now want to off-topically justify it. If you're trully repentant then the topic of Babylon's identity will be discussed and it will be discussed politely, respectfully, reasonably, rationally, cogently and coherently with well-rendered scripture. When that happens there is never any need to mention any poster, other than to say, "Well done."

So stow the apology and let your posts' content evidence a godly change.


Israel, not the US, is the Babylon of Revelation 17-18. Over the centuries various individuals, groups, and institutions have been labeled Revelation 17-18's Babylon. Most notably, over the last 5-600 years the Roman Catholic Church has been an frequent object of disdain and accusation because Roman Catholic priests sometimes where garments of purple and scarlet. The false-cause reasoning goes, "Because they too wear purple and scarlet and consider themselves a New Testament extension of the Old Testament clergy they are the modern Babylon," but there are too many contradictions for that argument to be true.

Simply put, the Roman Catholic Church did not exist in the first century when John wrote Revelation. Neither he nor his original readers would ever have thought, "Oh! Babylon is the future RCC!" and they most definitely would never have thought that over the existing scarlet-and-purple-wearing, prophet-and-saint-killing Jewish clergy. I expect any dissent to accurately reflect a sincere apology.

Israel, not the US, is the Babylon of Revelation 17-18.

 

[ChristB4us]

Israel, not the US, is the Babylon of Revelation 17-18.

In Revelation 14:6-13, we see the everlasting gospel preached by that angel everywhere so that after the rapture as hinted as taken place in Revelation 14:1-5, of out of those raptured that makes up His personal choir in Heaven, no one in the world will not have an excuse of not knowing the gospel.

Matthew 24:14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

So after Revelation 14:6-7 happens when the angel with the everlasting gospel preached everywhere after the rapture event, then the end shall come, hence the fall of Babylon as testified by the angel in Revelation 14:8. Then after the fall of Babylon, comes the third angel warning everyone of what is coming that if they take the mark of the beast to buy & sell to survive in the coming New World Order after the fall of Babylon which has to be USA, they will go to the lake of fire, no matter what as given in Revelation 14:9-13.

So that is the end spoken of in Matthew 24:14 in that when Babylon USA fall, the world as we know it will end and thus change towards the New World Order and the mark of the beast system.

These 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining upon the earth after the pre great tribulation rapture event as all will know the gospel, all will know the fall of USA Babylon, and all will know the consequence for taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell which is the lake of fire.

Since Israel is still around after those 3 angels because Israel is to build that Third Temple by that peace treaty agreement, then there is no way Israel is Babylon as described in Revelation 18th Chapter that has fallen after the pre great tribulation rapture event in Revelation 14:8 as sandwiched in between the first & third angel in setting up the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining upon the earth.

If you disagree, then explain how Israel is still around when Babylon has fallen before the mark of the beast system is implemented?

 

[Josheb]

In Revelation 14:6-13, we see the everlasting gospel preached by that angel everywhere so that after the rapture as hinted as taken place in Revelation 14:1-5, of out of those raptured that makes up His personal choir in Heaven, no one in the world will not have an excuse of not knowing the gospel.

Matthew 24:14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

So after Revelation 14:6-7 happens when the angel with the everlasting gospel preached everywhere after the rapture event, then the end shall come, hence the fall of Babylon as testified by the angel in Revelation 14:8. Then after the fall of Babylon, comes the third angel warning everyone of what is coming that if they take the mark of the beast to buy & sell to survive in the coming New World Order after the fall of Babylon which has to be USA, they will go to the lake of fire, no matter what as given in Revelation 14:9-13.

So that is the end spoken of in Matthew 24:14 in that when Babylon USA fall, the world as we know it will end and thus change towards the New World Order and the mark of the beast system.

These 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining upon the earth after the pre great tribulation rapture event as all will know the gospel, all will know the fall of USA Babylon, and all will know the consequence for taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell which is the lake of fire.

None of which proves the US is Babylon.

Since Israel is still around after those 3 angels because Israel is to build that Third Temple by that peace treaty agreement, then there is no way Israel is Babylon as described in Revelation 18th Chapter that has fallen after the pre great tribulation rapture event in Revelation 14:8 as sandwiched in between the first & third angel in setting up the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining upon the earth.

Hogwash.

There is no third temple explicitly stated to be built in the future anywhere in Revelation and even when the rest of the Bible is considered that premise is always and everywhere solely one of inference and never one where scripture explicitly states, "A third temple will be built." There is a way Israel is Babylon and I explained dhow that is the case using the actual words of Revelation and other scripture. Scarlet and purple are the colors of the Levitical priesthood and the Jewish tabernacle, and it was Israel and its leaders who murdered the prophets and saints.

If you disagree, then explain how Israel is still around when Babylon has fallen before the mark of the beast system is implemented?

I doubt "Israel," as modern futurist end times views conceive it, is around.

Covenant Israel does not exist today. Yes, there is a country on the east end of the Mediterranean bearing the name "Israel," but it is not by any scriptural means a restored covenant Israel as the Bible defines it. The modern state of Israel is not a theocracy, and neither is it a monarchy. It does not have the land God gave the tribes descended from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph. Its geography has not been restored. It does not practice the Law of Moses (it is still constantly in disobedience to that Law). Not being a theocracy, it lacks the Levitical priesthood, and the animal sacrifices a restored Israel would have. As a country it does not abide by the covenant God made with Abraham and his seed. It has no temple.

Israel has not been restored.


It may one day be restored but that has not happened today. Covenant Israel may one day in the future become restored but at the rate things are going it is not going to happen in our lifetime.

Neither is there any "New World Order" in Revelation. The perspective of the Bible is that the ascendant Jesus Christ is NOW King of all kings, Lord of all Lords, our Great High Priest, whose name is above all other name, rule, and principality. As God the Son there is nowhere that Christ is not the only "order" the planet has. As Lord, he will sit enthroned at his Father's right hand until the LORD makes a footstool of his enemies. The only new "world order" in the Bible is his.



This op, is about the premise the USA is the Babylon of Revelation 18 when such a premise would have been impossible for the original writer and original readers of Revelation to fathom. This op asserts Revelation 18's Babylon is the US but it fails to use whole scripture to define, understand, and apply the traits if Babylon contained in the text of Rev. 17-18. The op selectively uses attributes that could apply to any number of nations now or at any other point in history. When asked about this, the response is rancorous ad hominem and avoidance, NOT polite, respectful, reasonable, rational, cogent, and coherent topical discourse and a well-formed case of well-read scripture. The op is also a product of an end-times view literally invented less than 200 years ago and since its inception not a single prognosticator has ever predicted anything correct.

 

[ChristB4us]

Covenant Israel does not exist today. Yes, there is a country on the east end of the Mediterranean bearing the name "Israel," but it is not by any scriptural means a restored covenant Israel as the Bible defines it. The modern state of Israel is not a theocracy, and neither is it a monarchy. It does not have the land God gave the tribes descended from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph. Its geography has not been restored. It does not practice the Law of Moses (it is still constantly in disobedience to that Law). Not being a theocracy, it lacks the Levitical priesthood, and the animal sacrifices a restored Israel would have. As a country it does not abide by the covenant God made with Abraham and his seed. It has no temple.

Talk of the third Temple are in place and all the stuff for inside the Temple are done as well as the building blocks for the temple and the 5 red heifers needed for the sacrifice. All they are waiting for is the go ahead to build that Temple and supposedly that is when the great tribulation begins. So all of this is to occur after the pre great tribulation rapture event.

Israel has not been restored.

Not when you are looking at it through your view of "covenant Israel" theology, you will not see it.

It may one day be restored but that has not happened today. Covenant Israel may one day in the future become restored but at the rate things are going it is not going to happen in our lifetime.

Care to share scripture testifying that the nation of Israel today is not that "Covenant Israel" when Biblical prophesies are coming true regarding the nation of Israel today? Obviously, you have to resort to your theology for how you see the nation Israel to be defined as only existing per Covenant Israel. Funny thing is, after the land of Israel has been conquered several times through the Bible, it was the people of Israel that was Israel and God still addressed them as Israel.

 

[Josheb]

Talk of the third Temple.....

Does not exist in the Bible, and you're getting off-topic. You are supposed to be proving the US is Babylon when everything in the Revelation 17-18 text describes rebellious Israel.

Care to share scripture testifying that the nation of Israel today is not that "Covenant Israel" ...

Sure, once you prove the US is Babylon.

....when Biblical prophesies are coming true regarding the nation of Israel today?

No, they are not. False teachers constantly make that claim but it is all untrue.

Obviously, you have to resort to your theology....

And now you are back to attacking me when you said you would not. The fact is I have not remotely suggested ANY theology. I have shown you scripture and only scripture. I showed you where the harlot Baylon is stated in scripture to wear scarlett and purple. I showed you where scripture elsewhere describe who and what wears scarlet and purple and you could have at anytime verified those are the only places scriptures uses those terms. Nowhere in scripture is the US described as wearing scarlet and purple. It is YOU who has left the text of God's word, not me. I showed you where Revelation 17-18 plainly states the whore Babylon kills the prophets and saints and I then showed you where scripture reports this about Israel. There is no place in scripture where it reports the US kills the prophets and the saints. The US did not even exist when Isaiah, Jeremaih, et al were killed! It is YOU who has left scripture behind. I did NOT give you "theology;" I gave you scripture. and scripture after scripture, after scripture, after scripture and the response is to falsely accuse me of resorting to theology.

@Josheb

I apologize to the Lord & to you for following after your example in roughness.

It looks like the apology is worthless.

As imperfect it as it may be, the US is the most Christian on the planet, and I provided objectively verifiable evidence proving that fact. So either prove the US is Babylon or acknowledge that the opening claim of the op is conjecture.


Then I will walk you through the scriptures proving covenant Israel has not been restored.

But do not waste my time if you are not really, genuinely, sincerely interested in reading those scriptures and bowing to them if they prove Israel has not been restored.

 

[ChristB4us]

Does not exist in the Bible, and you're getting off-topic. You are supposed to be proving the US is Babylon when everything in the Revelation 17-18 text describes rebellious Israel.

It is obvious that the Lord is not ministering to either one of us in this exchange of iron sharpen iron ministry of His and so I leave you to God.

 

[Josheb]

It is obvious that the Lord is not ministering to either one of us in this exchange of iron sharpen iron ministry of His and so I leave you to God.

Please speak for yourself and do not EVER presume to speak for either God or me. I benefitted from the exchange and am thankful to God for it.

It is obvious that the Lord is not ministering to either one of us in this exchange of iron sharpen iron ministry of His and so I leave you to God.

I'd like you to think about that sentence because I offered to walk through the scriptures with you in direct reply to your request and am now being told the Lord is not ministering to you. The offer still stands anytime you'd like to read those scriptures, accept them, believe them, rely upon them and form doctrine(s) based on them rather than the extra-biblical teachings of doctrinally biased individuals.

Just send me an @ Josheb from anywhere in the forum. I'll get the notification you did so.

 

[Josheb]

Being a Christian in the United States of America poses the question of how did Babylon USA get this bad?

Now that the record shows the author of the op cannot and will not prove the opening insinuation the US is Revelation 18's Babylon I will address the rest of the op.


Part of the answer, "How did (non-Babylon USA) get this bad?" is Dispensational Premillennialism or, more generically, modern apocalyptic futurist eschatology.

Prior to the 19th century eschatology was considered a minor doctrine and very little was thought about it since the three prevailing views, Historic Premillennialism, Amillennialism, and Postmillennialism (as well as the less prominent Idealism) all agreed on the most important aspects of eschatology. Adherents of all three views also held Christology and soteriology to be much more important doctrines, whereas the Dispensationalists elevate ecclesiology and eschatology to be foremost. There have always been preachers saying Jesus was going to return at any time, but they did so under the auspices of the doctrine of Imminence and not Dispensationalist-style apocalypse. To say Jesus is returning soon is much different than saying he can return at any time. The revivals of the 17th and 18th centuries emphasized the Lordship of Christ, the sinfulness of the sinner, and the need for Christ in both arenas here on earth and on the other side of the grave, but one important distinction arose through the teachings of John Wesley. His "methodism" emphasized personal conversion and personal conversion in the hands of revivalists and itinerant preachers eventually led to a shift away from creedalism to experientialism. At a time when people increasingly had access to the written word and were increasingly literate this was ironic because the written word did not become standard for informing doctrine; personal experience did so.

This led to a huge explosion in sectarianism and a lack of institutional oversight. In the 19th century a plethora of individual views sharing a few basic features arose. These basic features were a belief the Church is corrupt, a belief the Church needed to return to the New Testament example (or the individual teachers' views of the NT-era Church) and do so quickly because Jesus was going to return soon but before he did so he would remove Christians from the earth before letting the world fall into depravity before he returned to live on earth and rule things himself.

None of that was commonly held view prior to the 19th century.

As a result, numerous preachers and teacher went around telling everyone with ears that they needed to repent now because Jesus was coming soon. Because of the emphasis on eschatology the prophetic passages of the Bible became routine content for leveraging the need for salvation. Dread of wrath replaced awareness of sin; fear replaced hope. Because of the prophetic content being used predictions became common place. By the end of the 19th century the radio was invented and as the 20th century unfolded preachers took to the airwaves telling everyone about the corruption of the Church, the soon coming apocalypse and the need to be ready when Jesus took away all the Christians.

Of course, as we all now know, it never happened.

It wasn't until the late 1960s and 70s that more Reformed teachers began to be roused from their slumber and notice the effect modern apocalyptic teaching was having on the larger society and culture. Due to the influence of people like John Darby Christians were encouraged to separate from the world and not participate in civic leadership or politics. Jesus was not concerned with this word; Christians are in the world but not of the world. This vein of teaching occurred during the same time as three other influences increased: Darwinism, Marxism, and (later) secular existentialism. Socialism crept into state governance first with Bismark, and the rise of the socialist parties in Britain, France, and Spain, and slowly in the US via the Democrat Party through Wilson and Roosevelt. With the horrors of WWI any notion of a victorious gospel waned and the teaching about apocalypse increased. Many literally thought WWI was the war to end all wars. This is where secular existentialism (a philosophy originated by a devout Christian) gained ground at the expense of the gospel. Within two decades another nationalist socialist would plunge the world into another war and Camus, Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, and Sartre usurped the throne the gospel had previously held. When Bertrand Russell wrote his infamous book, "Why I am Not a Christian," he examined the Liberal and Dispensationalist theologies popular in his day. Schweitzer had argued Jesus and the first century Bible writers were mistaken. They expected Jesus to return in the first century, but he hadn't so the Bible had to be looked at in ways other than infallible and inerrant. Dispensationalists denied all preterism except that which is messianic. More mainstream and orthodox Christians like Machen, Warfield, Spurgeon, and even Barth tried to confront and correct the problems of liberalism and dispensationalism but most to their effort was limited to academia and could not compete with radio reaching everyman. Billy Sunday and Billy Graham were Dispensationalist.

The world did go to hell in a handbasket, and it was largely due to Dispensationalism's abdication of Christology and soteriology as preeminent over ecclesiology ad eschatology. This continued until Roe v Wade. There were other influences, such as the abuses of women and blacks empowering church-going women and church-going blacks to protest or leave the Church (or both), but it was the Supreme Court's abuse of non-existent "rights" to justify killing unborn humans that lit a fire under evangelicals.

Which is curious given the opening insinuation of this op because Roe was just overturned and the US is heading in the correct direction, largely due to the influence of Christians. The battle is afoot: many electing (imperfect) Christian executives and legislators while others elect their antitheses.

This is how and why the US is bad, if it is in fact bad.

We've had just about two full centuries of fearmongers in the Church constantly making prediction about end times that never come true. I cannot write this word large enough due to the limits of the forum.

NEVER! ​

Not a single one has ever come true. They ALL have a 100% fail rate and despite their abject failure teaching end times correctly otherwise devout and earnest Christians follow them. Non-Christians watch while Christians run around preaching end-times lessons that NEVER come true and they all think we're all wackjobs who delusionally believe lies. They want no part of it if that is what it means to be Christian. For every R. C. Sproul on the radio there are twenty Hal Lindsays or David Jeremiahs. The only way any nonChristian would ever learn a different view exists in Christianity is by going to church and church is filled with hypocrites.

Just ask the Dispensationalists.

They tell everyone the Church is corrupt every day.

That is why the US is the way it is.

It has nothing to do with Revelation 18.

 

[David1701]

Ask Jesus to confirm or reprove the post shared with you.

Otherwise, I can just turn this around on you by saying prove that USA is NOT Babylon in Revelation 18th chapter.

What is to prevent you or anyone from being obtuse just because they like to mock or antagonize others?

I leave you to God.

This is ridiculous! Since you claim that God proved something to you, show everyone that proof (a feeling that you've had an epiphany is not proof).

 

[ChristB4us]

This is ridiculous! Since you claim that God proved something to you, show everyone that proof (a feeling that you've had an epiphany is not proof).

When you correct anyone in false teachings or just to share a "talent" that the Lord has shared with you, do you not ask the Lord to help them see the truth? So what harm is it to ask those who oppose themselves or whomever you are sharing a gospel truth but they do not see the application or the understanding of it, for them to ask the Lord to receive this wisdom as well?

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

 

[Josheb]

When you correct anyone in false teachings or just to share a "talent" that the Lord has shared with you, do you not ask the Lord to help them see the truth? So what harm is it to ask those who oppose themselves or whomever you are sharing a gospel truth but they do not see the application or the understanding of it, for them to ask the Lord to receive this wisdom as well?

Harm?

• It violates one of the most basic rules of internet discussion and netiquette: Keep the posts about the posts and not the posters. Outside of an internet discussion board it makes the conversation about the person, not the subject, teaching, or truth (Rom. 12:16-17; 2 Cor. 8:21).
• It violates a host of scripture directing us not to elevate ourselves above others and/or sit in the place of God as judge (Mt. 7:1; Php. 2:3; Col. 4:5 this list is quite long).
• It triggers a person's defenses. When one person gets defensive it comes with implied attacks on the accuser, who then also becomes defensive and two defensive people never solve anything (Pr. 26:4-5, 12:15; 1 Pet. 2:23).
• It violates many scriptures directing us to start with ourselves and not the other (Mt. 7:3-5; 2 Cor. 13:5; Jms. 1:23-24; 2 John 1:8 here, again, the list is quite long).
• It assumes a position of authority of another you do not possess (Jer. 3:15; Eph. 4:11). The possession of facts and truths should not be assumed; nor should it be used to subjugate another or empower oneself.
• It is usually hypocritical. On more than one occasion you have been corrected here in this forum and attacked the poster. How then can you ask what harm exists when you yourself have experienced it and committed it? (Mt. 7:3-5). It's best to prayer for your own knowledge, understanding, wisdom, and well-being and hand the other person over to God for the same purpose - in silence. You could also give them over to their own error and stubbornness. That is, after all, what God does (Ps. 81:12). Do not imagine yourself to be better than God.
• In any occasion where force is used or implied it violates the many scriptures prohibiting force (Ps. 33:16; Zec. 4:6)
• You could be wrong and thereby lead others astray. Peter was wrong when teaching the Jewish converts differently from the Gentile converts (Gal. 2:11-13).
• On any occasion where supposed personal revelation contradicts what is plainly stated in scripture that "revelation" did not come from God. The Holy Spirit never contradicts the written word.
• Personal revelation also risks committing the error of what is called the "genetic fallacy," or the problem of saying because the source for this is X then it is and must be true so you must therefore submit to it.
• The results often betray the truth. The exact same words can be used to create unity or division. The former bears witness to the Spirit, the latter to the flesh (Gal. 5; 1 Cor. 1:12, 2:3-9; Acts 17:32-34). Do not harden another's heart unwittingly (or your own).

In other words, there is a great deal wrong with that approach and it may cause great harm to you and/or the other person.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Did the other person ask God? Did you ask God?

Do you see how you just twisted scripture to justify your own problematic belief. James told his readers to ask God. James did not tell his readers to ask James, another apostle, pastor, elder, deacon, or fried. He said ask God. You just twisted that passage to imply it's okay for you to ask them to ask God when they should be the ones doing that on their own. The correct application of that text would be....

When you correct anyone in false teachings or just to share a "talent" that the Lord has shared with you, do I not ask the Lord to me see the truth? So what harm is it to ask those who oppose themselves or whomever I am sharing a gospel truth but I do not see the application or the understanding of it, for ME to ask the Lord to receive this wisdom as well?

And now you are in a position to practice what you preach and receive from another in such a manner that you prove to everyone here your own standards work and can be applied to you.

.

This is ridiculous! Since you claim that God proved something to you, show everyone that proof (a feeling that you've had an epiphany is not proof).

@David1701 is correct. It is hugely problematic for you to claim revelation above the word of God, assume a position of authority over another, assume your knowledge is correct, and claim proof where none exists.

Philippians 2:3-7
Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bondservant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Let me also strongly encourage you to give Dietrich Bonhoeffer's book, "Life Together" a read. It will radically change how you understand yourself in the body of Christ and your participation therein.

”Often we combat our evil thoughts most effectively if we absolutely refuse to allow them to be expressed in words. It is certain that the spirit of self-justification can be overcome only by the Spirit of grace, nevertheless, isolated thoughts of judgment can be curbed and smothered by never allowing them the right to be uttered, except as a confession of sin… He who holds his tongue in check controls both mind and body (Jms. 3). Thus it is a decisive rule of every Christian fellowship that each individual is prohibited from saying much that occurs to him… to speak about a brother covertly is forbidden, even under the cloak of help and good will; for it is precisely in this guise that the spirit of hatred among brothers always creeps in when it is seeking to create mischief.”​

​

“Where this discipline of the tongue is practiced right from the beginning, each individual will make a matchless discovery. He will be able to cease from constantly scrutinizing the other person, judging him, condemning him, putting him in his particular place where he can gain ascendancy over him and thus doing violence to him as a person. Now he can allow the brother to exist as a completely free person, as God made him to be. His view expands and, to his amazement, for the first time he sees, shining above his brethren, the richness of God’s creative glory. God did not make this person as I would have made him. He did not give him to me as a brother for me to dominate and control, but in order that I might find above him the Creator. Now the other person, in the freedom with which he was created, becomes the occasion for joy, whereas before he was only a nuisance and an affliction. God does not will that I should fashion the other person according to my image; rather in his very freedom from me God made this person in His image. I can never know beforehand how God’s image should appear in others. That image always manifests a completely new and unique form that comes solely from God’s free and sovereign creation.”​

Just because a thought occurs to you does not mean it should come out of your mouth.

 

[ChristB4us]

Harm?

• It violates one of the most basic rules of internet discussion and netiquette: Keep the posts about the posts and not the posters. Outside of an internet discussion board it makes the conversation about the person, not the subject, teaching, or truth (Rom. 12:16-17; 2 Cor. 8:21).
• It violates a host of scripture directing us not to elevate ourselves above others and/or sit in the place of God as judge (Mt. 7:1; Php. 2:3; Col. 4:5 this list is quite long).
• It triggers a person's defenses. When one person gets defensive it comes with implied attacks on the accuser, who then also becomes defensive and two defensive people never solve anything (Pr. 26:4-5, 12:15; 1 Pet. 2:23).
• It violates many scriptures directing us to start with ourselves and not the other (Mt. 7:3-5; 2 Cor. 13:5; Jms. 1:23-24; 2 John 1:8 here, again, the list is quite long).
• It assumes a position of authority of another you do not possess (Jer. 3:15; Eph. 4:11). The possession of facts and truths should not be assumed; nor should it be used to subjugate another or empower oneself.
• It is usually hypocritical. On more than one occasion you have been corrected here in this forum and attacked the poster. How then can you ask what harm exists when you yourself have experienced it and committed it? (Mt. 7:3-5). It's best to prayer for your own knowledge, understanding, wisdom, and well-being and hand the other person over to God for the same purpose - in silence. You could also give them over to their own error and stubbornness. That is, after all, what God does (Ps. 81:12). Do not imagine yourself to be better than God.
• In any occasion where force is used or implied it violates the many scriptures prohibiting force (Ps. 33:16; Zec. 4:6)
• You could be wrong and thereby lead others astray. Peter was wrong when teaching the Jewish converts differently from the Gentile converts (Gal. 2:11-13).
• On any occasion where supposed personal revelation contradicts what is plainly stated in scripture that "revelation" did not come from God. The Holy Spirit never contradicts the written word.
• Personal revelation also risks committing the error of what is called the "genetic fallacy," or the problem of saying because the source for this is X then it is and must be true so you must therefore submit to it.
• The results often betray the truth. The exact same words can be used to create unity or division. The former bears witness to the Spirit, the latter to the flesh (Gal. 5; 1 Cor. 1:12, 2:3-9; Acts 17:32-34). Do not harden another's heart unwittingly (or your own).

In other words, there is a great deal wrong with that approach and it may cause great harm to you and/or the other person.

Did the other person ask God? Did you ask God?

Do you see how you just twisted scripture to justify your own problematic belief. James told his readers to ask God. James did not tell his readers to ask James, another apostle, pastor, elder, deacon, or fried. He said ask God. You just twisted that passage to imply it's okay for you to ask them to ask God when they should be the ones doing that on their own. The correct application of that text would be....

And now you are in a position to practice what you preach and receive from another in such a manner that you prove to everyone here your own standards work and can be applied to you.

And exactly how are you keeping "that" by how & what you are posting to me?

If I am not understanding what the other poster is sharing, then I ask Jesus Christ at that throne of grace for help & wisdom to either receive the truth He is leading the other to share with me or to understand what he or she is saying and why the scripture He is supplying to me in my mind in reproving it to share back with the poster.

Iron sharpen iron goes both ways in His ministry but regardless, wisdom has to come from the Lord. It is the Lord that is ministering. I am nothing.

@David1701 is correct. It is hugely problematic for you to claim revelation above the word of God, assume a position of authority over another, assume your knowledge is correct, and claim proof where none exists.

How the other apply scripture or a church teaching has to align with the truth in other scripture. If it does not, then someone is not applying scripture rightly and whatever church teaching and practice is based on, is not Biblical after all. We are called to prove all things by Him, even to our own "talents" that we believe we had received from Him.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

So when anyone corrects another believer, how is this done unless the one believes they have the right dividing of the word of truth that the other does not have? And yet for any increase in any discussion to come, the Lord has to cause the increase. he has to be the One to do this for why we are to pray for one another.

Philippians 2:3-7
Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bondservant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Let me also strongly encourage you to give Dietrich Bonhoeffer's book, "Life Together" a read. It will radically change how you understand yourself in the body of Christ and your participation therein.

”Often we combat our evil thoughts most effectively if we absolutely refuse to allow them to be expressed in words. It is certain that the spirit of self-justification can be overcome only by the Spirit of grace, nevertheless, isolated thoughts of judgment can be curbed and smothered by never allowing them the right to be uttered, except as a confession of sin… He who holds his tongue in check controls both mind and body (Jms. 3). Thus it is a decisive rule of every Christian fellowship that each individual is prohibited from saying much that occurs to him… to speak about a brother covertly is forbidden, even under the cloak of help and good will; for it is precisely in this guise that the spirit of hatred among brothers always creeps in when it is seeking to create mischief.”​

​

“Where this discipline of the tongue is practiced right from the beginning, each individual will make a matchless discovery. He will be able to cease from constantly scrutinizing the other person, judging him, condemning him, putting him in his particular place where he can gain ascendancy over him and thus doing violence to him as a person. Now he can allow the brother to exist as a completely free person, as God made him to be. His view expands and, to his amazement, for the first time he sees, shining above his brethren, the richness of God’s creative glory. God did not make this person as I would have made him. He did not give him to me as a brother for me to dominate and control, but in order that I might find above him the Creator. Now the other person, in the freedom with which he was created, becomes the occasion for joy, whereas before he was only a nuisance and an affliction. God does not will that I should fashion the other person according to my image; rather in his very freedom from me God made this person in His image. I can never know beforehand how God’s image should appear in others. That image always manifests a completely new and unique form that comes solely from God’s free and sovereign creation.”​

Just because a thought occurs to you does not mean it should come out of your mouth.

There is no self justification when it involves keeping the faith by His grace & by His help which is the good fight and to rightly divide the word of truth by His wisdom alone.

If both sides look to Him as their Good Shepherd & Friend, then there is no harm in reminding the other to do that as well as praying for others too.

1 Corinthians 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me. 17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

2 Peter 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. 13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

 

[Josheb]

And exactly how are you keeping "that" by how & what you are posting to me?

Tu quoque

Anytime and every time ANYONE responds, "you do it, too!" in any form it is a fallacious response. The only true and correct response to one's own wrongdoing is to correct their own wrongdoing and NEVER shift away from themselves attempting to reduce their own wrongdoing with the digressive implication other do the same so the wrongdoing is acceptable and not to be addressed. Therefore, the tu quoque fallacy also ends up committing the fallacies of shifting the burden and red herring (anything intended to distract from the original point).

You asked a question: "What harm is it.....?" and I answered that question, and I did so with scriptural support. All freedom to receive that information exists, now understanding what the practices referenced in Post 31 do pose potential harms. The same liberty to ignore my answers also exists, but under no circumstance is tu quoque an acceptable response.

If I am not understanding what the other poster is sharing, then I...

I do not need further explanation, especially if that explanation is defensive, intended to dismiss what was posted, intended to dismiss any harm done, or intended blame me.

Iron sharpen iron goes both ways....

No one has said otherwise.

Not practicing our own standards causes both ways. It is happening right now.

• You asked a question.
• The question was answered.
• The answer is not received.
• Instead of receipt fallacy and defense ensued (exactly as the third bullet point states).
• The thread has become MORE about the posters and less about being a Christian in the USA.
• You have become the object lesson.

Harm!

The solution is simple and easy: Keep the posts about the posts and not the posters!. If the need is felt to tell another persona what to do (even if it is "pray about this") then first ask if they would like advice. Just try is for a month. Give it thirty days. If, once asked, the poster replies, "Sure," then offer your opinion, but if the reply is "No, thank you," then keep it to yourself. The Spirit is always there to help bear self-control .

If both sides look to Him as their Good Shepherd & Friend, then there is no harm in reminding the other to do that as well as praying for others too.

The bullet list I provided proves otherwise. Pray about it and hear what God says and realize this: if my saying that is disdained then you are experiencing what others feel when you do it to them. That's called empathy (identifying how others experience something).

So what harm is it to ask those who oppose themselves or whomever you are sharing a gospel truth but they do not see the application or the understanding of it, for them to ask the Lord to receive this wisdom as well?

That question has been answered. Receive it. Pray about it. Listen to what God says. Look up the scriptures provided and meditate upon them; contemplate them. Read that book I recommended.

Adjust conversations accordingly.

 

[QVQ]

I have wondered whether media, the 24/7 news machine and all the "social influencer" channels haven't just exposed all human corruption to a wider audience or whether sin has actually increased?
Didn't people do all those dirty, dastardly sins before the internet gave every sinner access to an audience? I think human kind has been exposed rather than further corrupted.
Christians are Christians. Christians are not the ones seeking audience and approval for whatever titillation floats the secular culture's boat.

 

[Josheb]

I have wondered whether media, the 24/7 news machine and all the "social influencer" channels haven't just exposed all human corruption to a wider audience or whether sin has actually increased?

They use different words but that is in fact their self-report. They say they do not create anything new, they simply reflect that which already exists.

Didn't people do all those dirty, dastardly sins before the internet gave every sinner access to an audience?

Yep.

I think human kind has been exposed rather than further corrupted.

Yep. And I don't think it is as bad as Caligula or Nero, the Aztec tlatoani and ixiptla, the Mongols, Celts, or Nazis. We could throw in a few Popes or a few inner-city crack houses for good measure. The world has always been a pretty depraved place. The media's most insidious power is the power to ignore.

Christians are Christians.

You sure about that? Not all Israel is Israel and Jesus was pretty indicting with Matthew 7:21-23.

Christians are not the ones seeking audience and approval for whatever titillation floats the secular culture's boat.

Blessedly and hopefully not but we do have a number of congregational leaders 1) espousing some divisive and sometimes even violent views, and 2) doing nothing when something should be done.

Even among conservative evangelical fundamentalists.

 

[ChristB4us]

This is ridiculous! Since you claim that God proved something to you, show everyone that proof (a feeling that you've had an epiphany is not proof).

If God was the One that proved it to me, would it not be the same for anyone else?

Example;

If God proved to you that the Catholic Church is an apostate church and you can share all the corrections by the scripture in reproving the works of darkness that is Catholicism, and yet the Catholics received it not, in spite of sharing what you clearly see as the truth, what do you do?

Prayer is needed, and yet it does not hurt to ask them to pray to trust the Lord for the Lord to show them otherwise in case they are missing or overlooking some important truth in scripture that could serve as a domino effect for how God would cause the increase to receive the truth.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

 

[ChristB4us]

You sure about that? Not all Israel is Israel and Jesus was pretty indicting with Matthew 7:21-23.

For @QVQ Just wanted to share that reference in proper context;

Jesus is not judging these "professing believers" as if they are not saved but denying them because they were workers of iniquity.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. ( <----- reprobate means disqualified from attending the Marriage Supper held in Heaven )
So that is one example of how believers in iniquity will be left behind, unless they repent by the time the Bridegroom has come. The left behind saints & former believers are still saved but missed out in being partakers of the firstfruit of the resurrection, but they shall be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not looking to Him for help in departing from iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:10-13,18-26 KJV <--- Scripture evidence for former believers & unrepentant saints in iniquity are still saved but left behind. This is why there are vessels unto dishonor in His House still because they testify to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Jesus, even in His name per John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Course as many are called, few are chosen to qualify to attend the marriage Suppr in Heaven while the rest are "excommunicated" for a time..

Matthew 7:13-27 KJV <---- At this link; you will find verses 21-23 in context of the message Jesus is sharing about how false prophets will come into the churches by broadening the way in the worship place whereby supernatural phenomenon can occur and lead many astray by signs and lying wonders for how some of those in those apostate movement of the 'spirit" will lose self control & fall per verses 24-27.

Jesus said He is the only way to come to God the Father by in John 14:6 and any other way is a robber and a thief John 10:1 and so when that modified Nicene creed of 381 A.D. included the worship of the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, they had broadened the way in the Christian churches as it was serving as an ecumenical creed as gathering grapes of thorns and figs of thistles. This is why in these apostate movements of the spirit, Catholics are still Catholics as it is not about Jesus Christ but the glory of that movement of signs & lying wonders.

God is not the author of confusion in any church or ministry outreach and so what you see as revivals may actually be apostasy for how many are falling away from the faith in these latter days by chasing after the spirits of the antichrist for signs and miracles. thus becoming an adulterous generation.

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Best way to avoid the spirits of the antichrist is to hope in the Lord to keep your eyes on the Bridegroom for He will be coming soon for the abiding bride of Christ which is what the indwelling Holy Spirit has been sent to do whereas the spirit of the antichrist would not, but take your eyes off of the Son in worship, prayer, & fellowship in coming to God the Father, even for a moment, to chase after them for a sign.

 

[Josheb]

Best way to avoid the spirits of the antichrist is to hope in the Lord to keep your eyes on the Bridegroom....

On that much I can agree.

 

[David1701]

If God was the One that proved it to me, would it not be the same for anyone else?

Example;

If God proved to you that the Catholic Church is an apostate church and you can share all the corrections by the scripture in reproving the works of darkness that is Catholicism, and yet the Catholics received it not, in spite of sharing what you clearly see as the truth, what do you do?

Prayer is needed, and yet it does not hurt to ask them to pray to trust the Lord for the Lord to show them otherwise in case they are missing or overlooking some important truth in scripture that could serve as a domino effect for how God would cause the increase to receive the truth.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

It's relatively easy to prove that many of the RC distinctives are unscriptural. There is absolutely no need to claim divine insight that others do not have; in fact, that would be grist to their mill.