Argument against the Doctrine of the Trinity. (And keep it clean, please.)

[Paul]

His Jesus not true God very God cannot save Him

My Jesus has life in Himself given to Him by His God and Father and the authority to give such life to anyone He chooses. In addition God has appointed Him the judge of the living and dead and He is the one who judges. I have received the gift of God -Christ in us.

If your Calvinist then I guess you believe I was chosen to be saved no matter what and it doesn't depend on me.

I know Him and He knows me.

He is Gods firstborn and has always been the Son and the fullness of the Deity of the first and last is the living Father. They are one. In that unity He would be idenitfied as the first and last not any other God. He is the first and last but He also is Gods first begotten Son.

 

[JesusFan]

My Jesus has life in Himself given to Him by His God and Father and the authority to give such life to anyone He chooses. In addition God has appointed Him the judge of the living and dead and He is the one who judges. I have received the gift of God -Christ in us.

If your Calvinist then I guess you believe I was chosen to be saved no matter what and it doesn't depend on me.

I know Him and He knows me.

He is Gods firstborn and has always been the Son and the fullness of the Deity of the first and last is the living Father. They are one. In that unity He would be idenitfied as the first and last not any other God. He is the first and last but He also is Gods first begotten Son.

Your Jesus is not the one of Bible, is a false one, and cannot save you from your sin

 

[Paul]

Jesus can call the Ftaher God in his humanity, but Jesus also is Himself very God also

Jesus calls the Father the only true God as I read. That is truth. I reject your opinion on His words which are very clear.

If He is very God or fully God as you state and still calls the Father the only true God what kind of God do you believe He is?

 

[Paul]

Your Jesus is not the one of Bible, is a false one, and cannot save you from your sin

The Jesus of the NT who is my Lord has authority to forgive sin.

My sins have been taken away. Can someone who has no sin be considered unrighteous?

Besides what you state doesn't make Jesus coeternal. Nor refute Jesus calling the Father the only true God. You think as the Son of Man He was no longer the true God? If He was the true God that would never change even as the Son of Man. Yet He clearly called the Father the ONLY true God. Your problem is with Him not me as I follow Him. He still calls God His Father and His God even in heaven

 

[Arial]

Jesus calls the Father the only true God as I read. That is truth. I reject your opinion on His words which are very clear.

If He is very God or fully God as you state and still calls the Father the only true God what kind of God do you believe He is?

He is triune in essence. three distinct persons. The term Father encompasses Father, Son, and Holy Spirit---the one true God. The Father sends the Son for the purposes of redemption (1 John 4:14), the Son comes as incarnate Jesus (Is.7:14), the Holy Spirit applies the work of Jesus through regeneration (John 3:1-8) and seals them in Christ (Eph 1:13-14; 2 Cor 1:22).

 

[Arial]

My Jesus has life in Himself given to Him by His God and Father and the authority to give such life to anyone He chooses.

If life is given to him then he does not have life in himself. The Bible does not say that the Father gave life to Jesus. It says that a body he prepared for him.

It also says, Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

It says Jesus is the one who gives life, not the one who receives life. Only God can give life.

In addition God has appointed Him the judge of the living and dead and He is the one who judges.

There is only one who is qualified to judge the living and the dead and that is God. So, Jesus is God.

He is Gods firstborn and has always been the Son and the fullness of the Deity of the first and last is the living Father. They are one. In that unity He would be idenitfied as the first and last not any other God. He is the first and last but He also is Gods first begotten Son.

How can you say that and at the same time say he became the Son by creation?

 

[JesusFan]

If life is given to him then he does not have life in himself. The Bible does not say that the Father gave life to Jesus. It says that a body he prepared for him.

It also says, Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

It says Jesus is the one who gives life, not the one who receives life. Only God can give life.

There is only one who is qualified to judge the living and the dead and that is God. So, Jesus is God.

How can you say that and at the same time say he became the Son by creation?

His Jesus is a heretical one, and cannot save him from his sins

 

[JesusFan]

The Jesus of the NT who is my Lord has authority to forgive sin.

My sins have been taken away. Can someone who has no sin be considered unrighteous?

Besides what you state doesn't make Jesus coeternal. Nor refute Jesus calling the Father the only true God. You think as the Son of Man He was no longer the true God? If He was the true God that would never change even as the Son of Man. Yet He clearly called the Father the ONLY true God. Your problem is with Him not me as I follow Him. He still calls God His Father and His God even in heaven

Your Jesus is not the one of the bible

 

[Arial]

The Jesus of the NT who is my Lord has authority to forgive sin.

My sins have been taken away. Can someone who has no sin be considered unrighteous?

Besides what you state doesn't make Jesus coeternal. Nor refute Jesus calling the Father the only true God. You think as the Son of Man He was no longer the true God? If He was the true God that would never change even as the Son of Man. Yet He clearly called the Father the ONLY true God. Your problem is with Him not me as I follow Him. He still calls God His Father and His God even in heaven

Do you agree that the incarnate Jesus being very God of very God---100% God and 100% man, two natures, one person.

and

A creaturely, created Jesus who has only infused deity (I think that is what you are saying) who is granted superhuman, God equal qualities and power.

cannot be the same Jesus. Would you say that is true?

Since only the true Jesus can save, isn't important to make absolutely certain that it is the right Jesus one gives their allegiance and worship to. Isn't it of the utmost importance to make sure that one is putting their trust in the right Jesus? Rather than blindly following the dictates of those who very well may be tools in the hands of the one who hates Jesus the most? Satan. And who does everything he can to deceive. He sounded very benevolent and convincing even in the Garden of Eden.

Here is one place to start that tells you about God. Something he said himself.

Is 42:8 I will the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other.

Of the Son, it says this:
Titus 2:13 Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

 

[JesusFan]

Do you agree that the incarnate Jesus being very God of very God---100% God and 100% man, two natures, one person.

and

A creaturely, created Jesus who has only infused deity (I think that is what you are saying) who is granted superhuman, God equal qualities and power.

cannot be the same Jesus. Would you say that is true?

Since only the true Jesus can save, isn't important to make absolutely certain that it is the right Jesus one gives their allegiance and worship to. Isn't it of the utmost importance to make sure that one is putting their trust in the right Jesus? Rather than blindly following the dictates of those who very well may be tools in the hands of the one who hates Jesus the most? Satan. And who does everything he can to deceive. He sounded very benevolent and convincing even in the Garden of Eden.

Here is one place to start that tells you about God. Something he said himself.

Is 42:8 I will the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other.

Of the Son, it says this:
Titus 2:13 Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

The real Jesus is the ternal Word of the Father, uncreated, eternally God, whatever "stuff" makes the Father God, the Son has exact same "stuff" within Himself, not infused or created with it

 

[Paul]

The real Jesus is the ternal Word of the Father, uncreated, eternally God, whatever "stuff" makes the Father God, the Son has exact same "stuff" within Himself, not infused or created with it

God is Spirit not stuff.
The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

 

[Paul]

Do you agree that the incarnate Jesus being very God of very God---100% God and 100% man, two natures, one person.

and

A creaturely, created Jesus who has only infused deity (I think that is what you are saying) who is granted superhuman, God equal qualities and power.

cannot be the same Jesus. Would you say that is true?

Since only the true Jesus can save, isn't important to make absolutely certain that it is the right Jesus one gives their allegiance and worship to. Isn't it of the utmost importance to make sure that one is putting their trust in the right Jesus? Rather than blindly following the dictates of those who very well may be tools in the hands of the one who hates Jesus the most? Satan. And who does everything he can to deceive. He sounded very benevolent and convincing even in the Garden of Eden.

Here is one place to start that tells you about God. Something he said himself.

Is 42:8 I will the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other.

Of the Son, it says this:
Titus 2:13 Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Why would Yahweh need to be given anything?

God hasn't given His glory away. He still sits on His throne in heaven. Rather He has glorified His Firstborn Son above all others.

The Son is the radiance of Gods glory...

The glory of our great God

The Son in whom dwells all the fullness and who sat down with the Father on His Fathers throne has Sovereign authority, honor. and power and can do anything is pleased to do as long as it abides within the framework of His Fathers will. Its His Fathers will to raise up on the last day all those the Father has given Him. And ALL that the Father gives Him will come to Him as He testified. He also stated to the Father, "they were yours you gave them to me"

And just as He lives by the Father so those who feed off Him will live by Him.

 

[Paul]

Your Jesus is not the one of the bible

What's not in the bible is true God from true God and Jesus being coeternal.

What is in the bible is Jesus calling His Father the only true God.

 

[Arial]

Why would Yahweh need to be given anything?

Exactly. You are the one who said God gave Jesus life. Jesus said he is life. So why don't you just answer the question and deal with what I posted.

God hasn't given His glory away. He still sits on His throne in heaven. Rather He has glorified His Firstborn Son above all others.

The scripture says he will not share his glory with another. Jesus in his prayer of John 17 says "glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world existed." Deal with the scriptures I gave you instead of just repeating those your leader gave you to combat the trinity. They are removed from the whole counsel of God---the entire consistent teaching of truth in the whole of scripture.

Or you can keep exalting the name of a false god and bowing down to it. What if you are wrong and Jesus really is God? Have you ever considered that? I pray God will reveal to you who the Son of God is. As I said, human wisdom cannot attain to it. It considers such an idea foolishness. (1 Cor 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Sirit of God for they are foolishness to him and cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.)

 

[Paul]

Exactly. You are the one who said God gave Jesus life. Jesus said he is life. So why don't you just answer the question and deal with what I posted.

Are you referring to HIS statements?
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

The scripture says he will not share his glory with another. Jesus in his prayer of John 17 says "glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world existed." Deal with the scriptures I gave you instead of just repeating those your leader gave you to combat the trinity. They are removed from the whole counsel of God---the entire consistent teaching of truth in the whole of scripture.

But Jesus stated God gave Him the glory of oneness and that He and the Father are one. And its one God, our Father and one Christ our Lord. And again Jesus Himself refers to the Father as the only true God.
My leader? Well my teacher certainty isn't the doctrine of the trinity.

Yahweh does not receive from any other being.

Its His alone to give
I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:

He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
8 Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.

Or you can keep exalting the name of a false god and bowing down to it. What if you are wrong and Jesus really is God? Have you ever considered that? I pray God will reveal to you who the Son of God is. As I said, human wisdom cannot attain to it. It considers such an idea foolishness. (1 Cor 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Sirit of God for they are foolishness to him and cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.)

I bow down to God my Father and Jesus Christ my Lord.

That's the will of my God.
Why the need? Isn't He Yahweh?

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

The 2nd coming the Son of Man Why the Need isn't the risen Lord Yahweh?
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

I can see who is giving and who is receiving in regard to the Son. My God has not received from any other being nor does He have a God and Father.

 

[Eleanor]

Are you referring to HIS statements?
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
But Jesus stated God gave Him the glory of oneness and that He and the Father are one. And its one God, our Father and one Christ our Lord. And again Jesus Himself refers to the Father as the only true God.
My leader? Well my teacher certainty isn't the doctrine of the trinity.
Yahweh does not receive from any other being.
Its His alone to give
I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
8 Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.

I bow down to God my Father and Jesus Christ my Lord.
That's the will of my God.
Why the need? Isn't He Yahweh?

Theology is based on "need" now?

For your edification, theology is based on Scripture; e.g., Jn 1:1,14.
Yes, both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God.

"The Word was God. . .The Word became flesh."
Jn 1:1, 14 couldn't be any more clear: "The word was God. . .The Word became flesh."
In Mt 28:19, Jesus gives the name (singular) of God; i.e., Father, Son, Holy Spirit,
Paul uses all three interchageably in 1 Co 12:4-6,
they are linked in prayer for divine blessing in 2 Co 13:14,
they are linked in pronouncement of divine blessing in Rev 1:4-5.

You either believe the word of God in the above, or you don't.

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

The 2nd coming the Son of Man Why the Need isn't the risen Lord Yahweh?
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

I can see who is giving and who is receiving in regard to the Son. My God has not received from any other being nor does He have a God and Father.

 

[JesusFan]

Are you referring to HIS statements?
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

But Jesus stated God gave Him the glory of oneness and that He and the Father are one. And its one God, our Father and one Christ our Lord. And again Jesus Himself refers to the Father as the only true God.
My leader? Well my teacher certainty isn't the doctrine of the trinity.

Yahweh does not receive from any other being.

Its His alone to give
I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:

He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
8 Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.


I bow down to God my Father and Jesus Christ my Lord.

That's the will of my God.
Why the need? Isn't He Yahweh?

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

The 2nd coming the Son of Man Why the Need isn't the risen Lord Yahweh?
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

I can see who is giving and who is receiving in regard to the Son. My God has not received from any other being nor does He have a God and Father.

Jesus is also Yahweh

 

[JesusFan]

Exactly. You are the one who said God gave Jesus life. Jesus said he is life. So why don't you just answer the question and deal with what I posted.

The scripture says he will not share his glory with another. Jesus in his prayer of John 17 says "glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world existed." Deal with the scriptures I gave you instead of just repeating those your leader gave you to combat the trinity. They are removed from the whole counsel of God---the entire consistent teaching of truth in the whole of scripture.

Or you can keep exalting the name of a false god and bowing down to it. What if you are wrong and Jesus really is God? Have you ever considered that? I pray God will reveal to you who the Son of God is. As I said, human wisdom cannot attain to it. It considers such an idea foolishness. (1 Cor 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Sirit of God for they are foolishness to him and cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.)

He is spiritual blinded and praying and asking the Holy Spirit to remove from Him that blindness so that he may know the true Jesus and have eternal life in his name

 

[His clay]

I have.

That is not a problem with the doctrine. That is a problem with the many believers.

That is incorrect.

We do not get our doctrine from Wiki. We get it from scripture. Scripture reports Jesus is God. He is the logos of God that is God. He is the I Am that was before Abraham, the power of God, he is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of God's being by whom, through whom, and for whom creation was created.

How do you know they are my buddies?

Means your prior statement is false and you've just wasted another post not addressing your own error. You are quoted as saying, "A trinitarian believes Jesus is the same person as God the Father..." and now you are on record citing a Reformed Baptist source explicitly telling you they are not the same person.

You got it wrong. The Trinity doctrine does not teach Jesus and the Father are the same person.

Now either correct your earlier mistake and acknowledge the doctrine of the Trinity teaches the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three different Persons or be ignored as someone who knowingly bears false witness and refuses to repent when the evidence warranting correct is provided. Until that correction occurs everything you post will be a strawman and the only response any of us should or need provide is to make note of the strawman and move on until the mistake is corrected.

I'm thankful this post was written! I was reading through some of the exchange, and this issue was such a blatant failure on the other poster's part. When a person tries to critique the Trinity while also simultaneously misrepresenting what the Trinity actually is, then most thoughtful people will reject the straw man bonfire as a very misguided path to tread.

Jesus and the Father being the same person is a straw man of the Trinity. Modalism is a more apt description.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

The Jesus of the NT who is my Lord has authority to forgive sin.

My sins have been taken away. Can someone who has no sin be considered unrighteous?

Besides what you state doesn't make Jesus coeternal. Nor refute Jesus calling the Father the only true God. You think as the Son of Man He was no longer the true God? If He was the true God that would never change even as the Son of Man. Yet He clearly called the Father the ONLY true God. Your problem is with Him not me as I follow Him. He still calls God His Father and His God even in heaven

My sins have been taken away. Can someone who has no sin be considered unrighteous?

Can you clarify this?

Are you suggesting you are sinless?