Argument against the Doctrine of the Trinity. (And keep it clean, please.)

[Paul]

Can you clarify this?

Are you suggesting you are sinless?

For those who have been sealed in Christ by the Spirit and are one with Him there can not be a state of sin for Christ and the believer are one. It has been taken away. If one remains in Him it is a continiuos state.

But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.

Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

This has nothing to do with the trinity.

 

[Josheb]

Modalism is a more apt description.

Can I get some clarification on that statement? Are you saying modalism is the correct term that should have been used by the other poster to describe the Jesus-is-the-same-person-as-God position (not "Trinity")?

 

[Josheb]

Can you clarify this?

Are you suggesting you are sinless?

For those who have been sealed in Christ by the Spirit and are one with Him there can not be a state of sin for Christ and the believer are one. It has been taken away. If one remains in Him it is a continiuos state.

But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.

Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

Does this sealed-in-Christ condition, which "cannot be a state of sin," allow for those in Christ to commit another sin after being sealed in Christ by the Spirit?

This has nothing to do with the trinity.

Not directly, but indirectly the answers go to the integrity of the argument you've presented in this thread. Besides, you weren't making any headway on that subject, any way . I'm curious with @ElectedbyHim.


Can a sealed person sin after being sealed in your pov?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

For those who have been sealed in Christ by the Spirit and are one with Him there can not be a state of sin for Christ and the believer are one. It has been taken away. If one remains in Him it is a continiuos state.

But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.

Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

This has nothing to do with the trinity.

This has nothing to do with the trinity.

This is correct and I went OT and I apologize for that.

But you did not answer if you are sinless.

Do you still sin?

 

[Josheb]

This is correct and I went OT and I apologize for that.

It is not entirely irrelevant because throughout the posts appeals were made to sinful people, including those who'd been sealed in Christ and sinned after their sealing. That necessarily impugns the veracity of all those sources and that, in turn, necessarily undermines the no-Trinity case.

But you did not answer if you are sinless. Do you still sin?

(josh pulls up a chair, takes a seat, and waits patiently for an actual answer while "think" from Jeopardy plays in the background)


.

 

[His clay]

Can I get some clarification on that statement? Are you saying modalism is the correct term that should have been used by the other poster to describe the Jesus-is-the-same-person-as-God position (not "Trinity")?

1st definition from google search
Modalism: "the doctrine that the persons of the Trinity represent only three modes or aspects of the divine revelation, not distinct and coexisting persons in the divine nature." <--That is a more apt description of the straw man the other person was presenting.

As I heard it long ago, God sometimes puts on the father hat, and sometimes the son hat, and other times the Spirit hat. 1 person with three different modes.

Hence, as I wrote in my last post . . . "Jesus and the Father being the same person is a straw man of the Trinity. Modalism is a more apt description."

The ai overview states the following,
"Modalism, or modalistic monarchianism, is the theological belief that God is one person who reveals himself in different modes or roles: as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is in contrast to the doctrine of the Trinity, which states that God is one essence existing as three distinct co-equal persons. Modalism teaches that these are not separate persons but different "masks" or "ways of appearing" for the one God, and that God the Father was born and suffered in the person of Jesus"

 

[Josheb]

1st definition from google search
Modalism: "the doctrine that the persons of the Trinity represent only three modes or aspects of the divine revelation, not distinct and coexisting persons in the divine nature." <--That is a more apt description of the straw man the other person was presenting.

Got it. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[CrowCross]

The Jesus of the NT who is my Lord has authority to forgive sin.

God forgives sins.
Isaiah 43:25
I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, 
And I will not remember your sins.

Mark 2:5-7
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

If Jesus forgives sin...then Jesus must be God.

My sins have been taken away. Can someone who has no sin be considered unrighteous?

Are you saying if you lie to someone...you didn't sin?

Besides what you state doesn't make Jesus coeternal. Nor refute Jesus calling the Father the only true God. You think as the Son of Man He was no longer the true God? If He was the true God that would never change even as the Son of Man. Yet He clearly called the Father the ONLY true God. Your problem is with Him not me as I follow Him. He still calls God His Father and His God even in heaven

The Only True God...yes, this is a true statement about the Father.
In Phil 2 we read the following....7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Are you gonna tell me Jesus as a human servant didn't become subservient to the Father? From this position of Kenosis Jesus wouldn't identify the Father as the only true God despite Himself being God?
Will you be telling me Jesus wasn't a servant as described in Phil 2?

 

[CrowCross]

The ai overview states the following,
"Modalism, or modalistic monarchianism, is the theological belief that God is one person who reveals himself in different modes or roles: as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is in contrast to the doctrine of the Trinity, which states that God is one essence existing as three distinct co-equal persons. Modalism teaches that these are not separate persons but different "masks" or "ways of appearing" for the one God, and that God the Father was born and suffered in the person of Jesus"

Thanks for the definition.

It seems as if God appeared in 3 different modes at the baptism of Jesus. While standing in the water God the Holy Spirit in the mode form of a dove that flew down and sat upon Jesus. Then the voice of God in the mode form of the Father was heard by those close by. This all happened while Jesus was in the mode form of God the Son was standing in the water next to John the baptist.

Here's the question.....How did all 3 of the Godhead appear.... manifest...reveals himself.. at the same time as 3 separate individuals all being God?

How does the modalistic approach explain this away? They were all present at the same time.

 

[His clay]

Thanks for the definition.

It seems as if God appeared in 3 different modes at the baptism of Jesus. While standing in the water God the Holy Spirit in the mode form of a dove that flew down and sat upon Jesus. Then the voice of God in the mode form of the Father was heard by those close by. This all happened while Jesus was in the mode form of God the Son was standing in the water next to John the baptist.

Here's the question.....How did all 3 of the Godhead appear.... manifest...reveals himself.. at the same time as 3 separate individuals all being God?

How does the modalistic approach explain this away? They were all present at the same time.

(1) You are definitely highlighting a key problem for modalism. The Trinity would have no problem whatsoever with Jesus' baptism, but modalism would have serious problems. The Spirit descended like a dove; John baptized Jesus, and the Father said that this was His beloved Son in whom He was well pleased. All three persons at one time, separate from each other, performing and/or acting in different ways.

(2) We can also point to John 17 and Jesus' prayer to the Father. The doctrine of the Trinity would have no problem with this, since Jesus is praying to a separate person. But with modalism Jesus would have to be praying to a different manifestation of Himself that was not present, which is seriously odd and problematic. With modalism, we could legitimately question who Jesus was even praying to. What glory did Jesus have with the Father before the world existed? (Jn 17:5)

(3) Again, we can point to the atonement itself. Jesus suffered on the cross. The Father crushed His Son (Is 53:5). He made Him to be sin, who knew no sin (2 Cor 5:21). As such, Jesus was our substitute, bearing the wrath of the Father upon the sin. But if modalism is true, then there are very significant problems. Who delivered the wrath, due against sin, while Jesus was on the tree? Who did Jesus cry out to, upon the cross?

Without belaboring the point (because more verses drive home the point even further), I'm not going to defend Modalism. It is a heresy plain and simple.

 

[Rella]

Thanks for the definition.

It seems as if God appeared in 3 different modes at the baptism of Jesus. While standing in the water God the Holy Spirit in the mode form of a dove that flew down and sat upon Jesus. Then the voice of God in the mode form of the Father was heard by those close by. This all happened while Jesus was in the mode form of God the Son was standing in the water next to John the baptist.

Here's the question.....How did all 3 of the Godhead appear.... manifest...reveals himself.. at the same time as 3 separate individuals all being God?

How does the modalistic approach explain this away? They were all present at the same time.

 

[CrowCross]

(1) You are definitely highlighting a key problem for modalism. The Trinity would have no problem whatsoever with Jesus' baptism, but modalism would have serious problems. The Spirit descended like a dove; John baptized Jesus, and the Father said that this was His beloved Son in whom He was well pleased. All three persons at one time, separate from each other, performing and/or acting in different ways.

(2) We can also point to John 17 and Jesus' prayer to the Father. The doctrine of the Trinity would have no problem with this, since Jesus is praying to a separate person. But with modalism Jesus would have to be praying to a different manifestation of Himself that was not present, which is seriously odd and problematic. With modalism, we could legitimately question who Jesus was even praying to. What glory did Jesus have with the Father before the world existed? (Jn 17:5)

(3) Again, we can point to the atonement itself. Jesus suffered on the cross. The Father crushed His Son (Is 53:5). He made Him to be sin, who knew no sin (2 Cor 5:21). As such, Jesus was our substitute, bearing the wrath of the Father upon the sin. But if modalism is true, then there are very significant problems. Who delivered the wrath, due against sin, while Jesus was on the tree? Who did Jesus cry out to, upon the cross?

Without belaboring the point (because more verses drive home the point even further), I'm not going to defend Modalism. It is a heresy plain and simple.

(1) You are definitely highlighting a key problem for modalism. The Trinity would have no problem whatsoever with Jesus' baptism, but modalism would have serious problems. The Spirit descended like a dove; John baptized Jesus, and the Father said that this was His beloved Son in whom He was well pleased. All three persons at one time, separate from each other, performing and/or acting in different ways.

(2) We can also point to John 17 and Jesus' prayer to the Father. The doctrine of the Trinity would have no problem with this, since Jesus is praying to a separate person. But with modalism Jesus would have to be praying to a different manifestation of Himself that was not present, which is seriously odd and problematic. With modalism, we could legitimately question who Jesus was even praying to. What glory did Jesus have with the Father before the world existed? (Jn 17:5)

(3) Again, we can point to the atonement itself. Jesus suffered on the cross. The Father crushed His Son (Is 53:5). He made Him to be sin, who knew no sin (2 Cor 5:21). As such, Jesus was our substitute, bearing the wrath of the Father upon the sin. But if modalism is true, then there are very significant problems. Who delivered the wrath, due against sin, while Jesus was on the tree? Who did Jesus cry out to, upon the cross?

Without belaboring the point (because more verses drive home the point even further), I'm not going to defend Modalism. It is a heresy plain and simple.

I'm a Trinitarian, I'm not going to defend Modalism either.

 

[Eleanor]

1st definition from google search
Modalism: "the doctrine that the persons of the Trinity represent only three modes or aspects of the divine revelation, not distinct and coexisting persons in the divine nature." <--That is a more apt description of the straw man the other person was presenting.

As I heard it long ago, God sometimes puts on the father hat, and sometimes the son hat, and other times the Spirit hat. 1 person with three different modes.

Hence, as I wrote in my last post . . . "Jesus and the Father being the same person is a straw man of the Trinity. Modalism is a more apt description."

So the Father sends himself when he sends the Son (Jn 5:23, 36, 43), and
the Father sends himself when he sends the Spirit (Jn 14:26), and
the Father and Son send themselves when each sends the Spirit (Jn 15:26, 16:7, 4:26, Ac 2:33)?

Not according to Scripture.

The ai overview states the following,
"Modalism, or modalistic monarchianism, is the theological belief that God is one person who reveals himself in different modes or roles: as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is in contrast to the doctrine of the Trinity, which states that God is one essence existing as three distinct co-equal persons. Modalism teaches that these are not separate persons but different "masks" or "ways of appearing" for the one God, and that God the Father was born and suffered in the person of Jesus"

 

[Eleanor]

1st definition from google search

So the Father sends himself when he sends the Son (Jn 5:23, 36, 43), and
the Father sends himself when he sends the Spirit (Jn 14:26), and
the Father and Son send the Father when each sends the Spirit (Jn 15:26, 16:7, 4:26, Ac 2:33)?

Not according to Scripture.

Actually that would be the Father sending himself in the Son, which Father (in the Son) then sends himself in the Spirit.

Back to the drawing board. . .

 

[Paul]

God forgives sins.
Isaiah 43:25
I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, 
And I will not remember your sins.

Mark 2:5-7
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

If Jesus forgives sin...then Jesus must be God.

Are you saying if you lie to someone...you didn't sin?

I'm stating for those who have been sealed in Christ by the Spirit that they are one with Him and a state of sin cannot exist in God. Your sins have been taken away and if one remains in Him that is a continuous state. (In Him is no sin)

Jesus-Remain in Me, and I will remain in you

The Only True God...yes, this is a true statement about the Father.
In Phil 2 we read the following....7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

This it is true about the person of the Father as Jesus declared. If Jesus were the only true God He would have remained so even as the Son of man. I'm not sure of your theological outlook but it's stated the Son of man was fully God and fully man. (hypostatic union)

Also if what Jesus stated is no longer true as what He stated at that point of time then you must believe what the Son states is not always true. Is that what you believe?

You will note Christ in heaven still refers to the one on the throne as His God and calls Him Father.

Just as stated on earth- My God and your God My Father and your Father

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Are you gonna tell me Jesus as a human servant didn't become subservient to the Father? From this position of Kenosis Jesus wouldn't identify the Father as the only true God despite Himself being God?
Will you be telling me Jesus wasn't a servant as described in Phil 2?

I'm stating Jesus has always been the Son and God has always been His God and Father and is greater than Him.

The Son abides within the framework of His Fathers will yesterday, today and forever.
He came down to do the Fathers will. He sits at Gods right hand until God makes His enemies a footstool for His feet and will raise up on the last day all those the Father gave Him according to His Fathers will. The Spirit was poured out in these last days according to promise and will of the Father.

And the very message He gave is the Fathers not His own, (source of truth as in the Spirit of truth)

He sat down with the Father on His Fathers throne, and it is stated the throne of God and the lamb forever.

God has placed Christ above every name so only in regard to His own throne is His authority greater.

 

[Paul]

This is correct and I went OT and I apologize for that.

But you did not answer if you are sinless.

Do you still sin?

In Him is no sin. If you have been sealed in Christ by the Spirit, you and He are one and a state of sin cannot exist in God. Your sins are not only forgiven but taken away. If you remain in Him this is a continuous state.

I keep my conscience clear before God not only because I desire His will be done but also as I fear Him.

Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore, love is the fulfillment of the law.

I keep Gods commandments and abstain from sexual immorality.

I expect a joyful meeting in heaven with My Lord when the time comes.

 

[JesusFan]

I'm thankful this post was written! I was reading through some of the exchange, and this issue was such a blatant failure on the other poster's part. When a person tries to critique the Trinity while also simultaneously misrepresenting what the Trinity actually is, then most thoughtful people will reject the straw man bonfire as a very misguided path to tread.

Jesus and the Father being the same person is a straw man of the Trinity. Modalism is a more apt description.

or Oneness heresy

 

[JesusFan]

I'm stating for those who have been sealed in Christ by the Spirit that they are one with Him and a state of sin cannot exist in God. Your sins have been taken away and if one remains in Him that is a continuous state. (In Him is no sin)

Jesus-Remain in Me, and I will remain in you

This it is true about the person of the Father as Jesus declared. If Jesus were the only true God He would have remained so even as the Son of man. I'm not sure of your theological outlook but it's stated the Son of man was fully God and fully man. (hypostatic union)

Also if what Jesus stated is no longer true as what He stated at that point of time then you must believe what the Son states is not always true. Is that what you believe?

You will note Christ in heaven still refers to the one on the throne as His God and calls Him Father.

Just as stated on earth- My God and your God My Father and your Father

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.




I'm stating Jesus has always been the Son and God has always been His God and Father and is greater than Him.

The Son abides within the framework of His Fathers will yesterday, today and forever.
He came down to do the Fathers will. He sits at Gods right hand until God makes His enemies a footstool for His feet and will raise up on the last day all those the Father gave Him according to His Fathers will. The Spirit was poured out in these last days according to promise and will of the Father.

And the very message He gave is the Fathers not His own, (source of truth as in the Spirit of truth)

He sat down with the Father on His Fathers throne, and it is stated the throne of God and the lamb forever.

God has placed Christ above every name so only in regard to His own throne is His authority greater.

true Jesus that saves us is the Eternally God man, your Jesus cannot save you, he is as false as JW/lds/Islamic one