Argument against the Doctrine of the Trinity. (And keep it clean, please.)

[Josheb]

If man was made lower than the angels, then angels must be first.

The word "lower" is not a measure of sequence. Furthermore, that "lower" attribute has context because angels are ministering spirits sent to those who will inherit salvation. They minister to us, not the other way around. Furthermore, we will judge angels, not the other way around. When it comes to the hierarchy of significance the angels are lower than the saints. Consider the entirety of the passage in which the verse you've referenced occurred. The author is writing about the dissemination of the gospel and states,

Hebrews 2:7
5For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. 6It has been testified somewhere,

“What is man, that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him? 7You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor, 8putting everything in subjection under his feet.”​

Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. 9But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

The word was subjected to man, not the angels.
Man was made lower than the angels and crowned with glory and honor (not the angels).
The lowerness with which man and the son of man was made is temporary; it is only "for a little while".
Everything is subordinate to the son of man.

Therefore, Post 180 proves to be an excellent example of what I said: you use scripture selectively, don't consider all that whole scripture says and, as a result, don't grasp much of what scripture states about Jesus correctly.

While God created, the heavenly choir sang for joy.

Yep. The heavenly host rejoiced. The verses referenced do not say they existed prior to creation. Neither can the verses you have not cited be interpreted in contradiction to those I have already provided. You sed the word "while", indicating the angels' rejoice occurred in the midst of God creating, not that they existed before creation.

The next time you want to make claims about scripture cite or quote the verse. Otherwise, it looks like you're inventing scripture to fit your already-existing belief.

I find it very reasonable to believe angels were before the world began.

Confirmation bias. It is not reasonable. Post 176 provides scriptures that explicitly state all of the heavenly host was created. Whatever verse you select has to be rendered according to those statements. The difference between us here is that I have provided explicit statements from scripture = verses that do not need or want additional interpretation. You, alternatively, are providing inferences, interpretations of what is stated, interpretations of what is stated based on your pre-existing belief angels existed prior to creation when the verses quoted in Post 176 explicitly state the exact opposite.

Explicit statement versus inference

Be as critical of your sources as you are of my posts.

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

The answer to that question is, "Nowhere." That "you" did not exist when God marked off the dimensions of the earth's foundation. The angels were created prior to humans and the forming of the earth, but they were still created. Sometimes scripture refers to the heavenly host as "lights." That would place their creation on the fourth day of creation. Humans were made on the sixth. In other words, angels were made before humans were made, but they are still created creatures. They did not exist before creation.

So, once again, here is another example of scripture being used selectively, the whole of scripture not being consulted, resulting in a misguided understanding of who and what is Jesus, the Person who was foreknown before the foundation of the world, the Person who, as the logos of God was with God in the beginning as God. He was made lower than the angels for a while and yet every knee - including those of the angels bows to him and him alone to his Father's glory. Jesus was there in the beginning. Angels were not. The angels are created creatures, and their existence did not occur until the fourth day.

Be as critical of the people telling you Jesus is a created creature just as much as you are critical of my posts. Be an equal opportunity critic.

 

[Paul]

The word "lower" is not a measure of sequence. Furthermore, that "lower" attribute has context because angels are ministering spirits sent to those who will inherit salvation. They minister to us, not the other way around. Furthermore, we will judge angels, not the other way around. When it comes to the hierarchy of significance the angels are lower than the saints. Consider the entirety of the passage in which the verse you've referenced occurred. The author is writing about the dissemination of the gospel and states,

Hebrews 2:7
5For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. 6It has been testified somewhere,

“What is man, that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him? 7You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor, 8putting everything in subjection under his feet.”​

Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. 9But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

The word was subjected to man, not the angels.
Man was made lower than the angels and crowned with glory and honor (not the angels).
The lowerness with which man and the son of man was made is temporary; it is only "for a little while".
Everything is subordinate to the son of man.

Therefore, Post 180 proves to be an excellent example of what I said: you use scripture selectively, don't consider all that whole scripture says and, as a result, don't grasp much of what scripture states about Jesus correctly.

Yep. The heavenly host rejoiced. The verses referenced do not say they existed prior to creation. Neither can the verses you have not cited be interpreted in contradiction to those I have already provided. You sed the word "while", indicating the angels' rejoice occurred in the midst of God creating, not that they existed before creation.

The next time you want to make claims about scripture cite or quote the verse. Otherwise, it looks like you're inventing scripture to fit your already-existing belief.

Confirmation bias. It is not reasonable. Post 176 provides scriptures that explicitly state all of the heavenly host was created. Whatever verse you select has to be rendered according to those statements. The difference between us here is that I have provided explicit statements from scripture = verses that do not need or want additional interpretation. You, alternatively, are providing inferences, interpretations of what is stated, interpretations of what is stated based on your pre-existing belief angels existed prior to creation when the verses quoted in Post 176 explicitly state the exact opposite.

Explicit statement versus inference

Be as critical of your sources as you are of my posts.

The answer to that question is, "Nowhere." That "you" did not exist when God marked off the dimensions of the earth's foundation. The angels were created prior to humans and the forming of the earth, but they were still created. Sometimes scripture refers to the heavenly host as "lights." That would place their creation on the fourth day of creation. Humans were made on the sixth. In other words, angels were made before humans were made, but they are still created creatures. They did not exist before creation.

So, once again, here is another example of scripture being used selectively, the whole of scripture not being consulted, resulting in a misguided understanding of who and what is Jesus, the Person who was foreknown before the foundation of the world, the Person who, as the logos of God was with God in the beginning as God. He was made lower than the angels for a while and yet every knee - including those of the angels bows to him and him alone to his Father's glory. Jesus was there in the beginning. Angels were not. The angels are created creatures, and their existence did not occur until the fourth day.

Be as critical of the people telling you Jesus is a created creature just as much as you are critical of my posts. Be an equal opportunity critic.

It's clear to me God was asking Job where were you, (at this point in time)

“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

Jesus stated the same for Him as us in regard to a having a God and Father. Its literal. He is a first begotten child of the Father as God formed His spirit just as He formed ours
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’

What makes Jesus unique in addition to having the preeminence is that His God was pleased to live in Him in all His fullness. A son who is the imprint of the Fathers very being and one in Deity with the Father. But it is Father and Son.

If I wanted to start to understand the truth I would start with what I know is true. That is the head of the body of Christ calls His Father the only true God and I would know that what you state about Him is not a possible answer.

But as I see it doesn't matter what I state so why continue? Your teacher is the doctrine of the trinity.

 

[Josheb]

It's clear to me God was asking Job where were you, (at this point in time)

What is clear to you and what scripture states are two completely different things. The appeal to your own understanding is logically fallacious. You have been provided with verses read exactly as written that state the heavenly host were created. They are created creatures, not uncreated creature that existed prior to creation being created.

If I wanted to start to understand the truth I would start with what I know is true.

No, understanding truth begins with what scripture explicitly states and bowing one's knowledge and understanding to it.

That is the head of the body of Christ calls His Father the only true God...

Within the context of Jesus as the Redeemer. Those labels are New Testament labels describing the soteriological mission of God in His redemption of humanity from sin. Prior to that Jesus is described as God, the LORD's Lord, and all the many labels assigned God throughout the OT. All those labels are used to describe Jesus. If you claimed to be the I Am you'd be considered an idiot. Or a heretic.

John 5:9-23
9...Now it was a Sabbath on that day. 10So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is a Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.” 11But he answered them, “He who made me well was the one who said to me, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk.’” 12They asked him, “Who is the man who said to you, ‘Pick it up and walk’?” 13But the man who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had slipped away while there was a crowd in that place. 14Afterward, Jesus *found him in the temple and said to him, “Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you.” 15The man went away, and informed the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. 16For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on a Sabbath. 17But he answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I myself am working.” 18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because he not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

19Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of himself, unless it is something he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in the same way. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show him greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so the Son also gives life to whom he wishes. 22For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23so that all will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

If Jesus was making himself equal with God and he was not God's equal, then he was a heretic, and no one is saved from sin by Jesus. If, alternatively, Jesus was, in fact, making himself equal with God because he is, in fact, equal with God, then he ought to be honored as such: equal with God. Did you read that part about Jesus being the judge of all? That means every Old Testament mention of God as Judge is actually a reference to Jesus. This happens throughout the New Testament: a label thought to exist solely as an attribute of the one almighty God is an attribute of Jesus'. The New Testament repeatedly assigns divine attribute to Jesus.

You do understand it is logically impossible to have two Gods, yes?
.

and I would know that what you state about Him is not a possible answer.

When measured by scripture the posts prove that is not the case.

But as I see it doesn't matter what I state so why continue? Your teacher is the doctrine of the trinity.

My teacher is scripture. That is what I have used and all I have used. Not once have I appealed to any extra-biblical source.


Let's review. Based on the posts' actual content.....

1. You use scripture selectively and a) do not interpret any of it in light of the whole and won't answer questions about this when asked.
2. You do not have an explanation for how God could possibly ontologically be love while existing in the pre-creation void other than to say angels are not created in contradiction to scripture.
3. You do not have an explanation for the repeated comparisons made by scripture between God and Jesus that would normally mean Jesus is an apostate heretic that cannot save anyone if the comparisons are not correct.
4. When asked about any of this the end response is walking away idolizing one's own understanding over scripture in ad hominem and straw man.

Those are the facts in evidence so far. Call me Trinitarian all you like but the fact is Jesus is either explicitly stated to be God or labeled with the divine attributes of God and whatever you want to call it, that makes him God.