Argument against the Doctrine of the Trinity. (And keep it clean, please.)

[JesusFan]

If your stating cult then, our discussion ends.

The Jesus that you are giving to us here does not appear to be the One of the Bible, He who is eternally God, so just trying to get clarification just which jesus are you placing your fsith and trust in right now?

 

[Paul]

The Jesus that you are giving to us here does not appear to be the One of the Bible, He who is eternally God, so just trying to get clarification just which jesus are you placing your fsith and trust in right now?

Which part of the Jesus I state as Christ the Lord is not found in the NT?
That He is a Son of God?
That He is all that the Father is?
That He and the Father are one?
That He is the beginning of the creation of God?

Setting Christ aside can you show me where it states the Father always was from scripture?

In speaking of a God such as Himself He states, "No God was formed before me"

So the only thing I know with certainty is IF the Father has a beginning it can't be by any other being.

The issue is begotten or unbegotten. The Father is unbegotten.

How is a begotten Son of another and from another with a God and Father a being that has no beginning?
as stated: True God FROM True God -The true God is not from any other and is not a Son of any other nor has a God.

Your teacher isn't the NT its the doctrine of the trinity.

What the head of the body of Christ stated.
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

So if you have a problem with me stating the Father is the only true God you have my source.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

The eternal life found in the Son is the Father. The context is life without end not life in the flesh as unbelievers and the unrighteous live in the flesh
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

I truly believe this about the SON.
Hebrews 1:3 - The Supremacy of the Son

I state His Spirit was formed by the Father alone. Begotten as in born from the Father. So a beginning at some point in history before the world began.

I agree in part.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, (agree)
the Only Begotten Son of God, (agree)
born of the Father before all ages (agree)
God from God, Light from Light, (Me-A born Son in whom God was pleased to dwell in with His Spirit without Limit-fullness of the Deity)(they are one in this manner)
true God from true God, (Me-God in the context I have stated from true God)
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; (me-begotten, His formed spirit not deity a Son and child of the Father, the Fathers fullness dwells/lives in Him)
through him all things were made (I agree with the exception of His person)

 

[Josheb]

I don't know how different ways your going to ask that question which has been clearly answered.

As opposed to the many questions asked you haven't yet answered?

 

[Paul]

As opposed to the many questions asked you haven't yet answered?

Doesn't follow as you asked the same thing over and over which were answered.

 

[Josheb]

Doesn't follow as you asked the same thing over and over which were answered.

Well, let's see. I just read through every post since I began asking you questions and the facts in evidence prove...

1. No explanation for how God be relational attributes if He exists all alone in the void prior to creation has been posted. That question has been ignored in its entirety.
2. No timeframe for the forming of Jesus' mind was stated.
3. The question, "Do you understand the language of "Father" and "Son" is soteriological?" has not been answered.
4. The question, "Do you realize it's not the whole ontology of the Godhead?" has not been answered.
5. No rectification of the very real contradiction existing when saying something existed before the ages but also was formed at the beginning of creation has been posted. The existence of a contradiction has been denied. Nothing can exist before the beginning if it exists only as a function of being made at the beginning. That is self-contradictory. If you do not understand that I will happily explain how and why that is the case. Until then, the facts in evidence are that the question asked has NOT ben answered.
6. You have not said whether or not the five points of Post 124 are all that scripture states about Jesus. The problem of selective use of scripture hasn't even remotely been addressed.

Responses were posted about the questions 2 and 3, but those responses are not answers. They do not actually answer and address the question asked with any explanatory substance. I'd like to read your answers to the specific questions asked, and I'd like to read those answers without further delay or obfuscation because whatever those answers may or may not be, they are relevant to the specified topic of this op.

I've got lots more questions for you but will wait until those above and the one below get answered.

You've said, "But since I believe the Holy Spirit is the Fathers very own Spirit as He is the only true God it really doesn't matter," and posted comments about the Spirit of God.

Do you know that the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Jesus are the same Spirit?

Doesn't follow as you asked the same thing over and over which were answered.

The facts in evidence prove at least six questions have been asked and remain unanswered and only the sixth question was asked more than once because it has not yet been answered!



.

 

[Paul]

Well, let's see. I just read through every post since I began asking you questions and the facts in evidence prove...

1. No explanation for how God be relational attributes if He exists all alone in the void prior to creation has been posted. That question has been ignored in its entirety.

God became a Father with His Firstborn. What relationship do you speak of before that point in time?

1. No timeframe for the forming of Jesus' mind was stated.

Was stated -Jesus, which includes His mind and own spirit which is not deity had a beginning at some point in History before the world began.
In Him the fullness was pleased to dwell. In that unity He and the Father are one. The Father is the only true Deity.

1. The question, "Do you understand the language of "Father" and "Son" is soteriolog?ical" has not been answered.

You stating that doesn't make it so as I see Father and child. You understand Father and His oldest Child?

1. The question, "Do you realize it's not the whole ontology of the Godhead?" has not been answered.

I don't understand this question nor find it relative to one God our Father and one Christ our Lord.

1. No rectification of the very real contradiction existing when saying something existed before the ages but also was formed at the beginning of creation has been posted. The existence of a contradiction has been denied. Nothing can exist before the beginning if it exists only as a function of being made at the beginning. That is self-contradictory. If you do not understand that I will happily explain how and why that is the case. Until then, the facts in evidence are that the question asked has NOT ben answered.

Jesus existed before all things except God His Father and the birth of His own person.

1. You have not said whether or not the five points of Post 124 are all that scripture states about Jesus. The problem of selective use of scripture hasn't even remotely been addressed.

I have read all that is written of Him and stated my understanding from all that is written of Him. Unlike your premise He is Gods oldest child and the Deity lives in Him is His Father. He is a Son called Mighty God. He and the Father are one.

He is begotten. He is all that the Father is.
If your speaking of all that is written of Him there would be more than fives lines.

Responses were posted about the questions 2 and 3, but those responses are not answers. They do not actually answer and address the question asked with any explanatory substance. I'd like to read your answers to the specific questions asked, and I'd like to read those answers without further delay or obfuscation because whatever those answers may or may not be, they are relevant to the specified topic of this op.

??

I've got lots more questions for you but will wait until those above and the one below get answered.

You've said, "But since I believe the Holy Spirit is the Fathers very own Spirit as He is the only true God it really doesn't matter," and posted comments about the Spirit of God.

Do you know that the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Jesus are the same Spirit?

I understand that's your belief, but I disagree. So Jesus had to ask for and receive His Spirit from another to send to us and speaks of the Spirit of Christ in as "another" advocate? Yet the Father stated He would pour out "His" Spirit in these last days. We know from Jesus that the Father sent the Spirit in Jesus's name.

The facts in evidence prove at least six questions have been asked and remain unanswered and only the sixth question was asked more than once because it has not yet been answered!

Your questions are not scripture that proves or disproves anything. They are meaningless and based off your own premise. I may not choose to go down this rabbit hole. I really have nothing new to add on who Jesus is.

.

 

[JesusFan]

God became a Father with His Firstborn. What relationship do you speak of before that point in time?

Was stated -Jesus, which includes His mind and own spirit which is not deity had a beginning at some point in History before the world began.
In Him the fullness was pleased to dwell. In that unity He and the Father are one. The Father is the only true Deity.

You stating that doesn't make it so as I see Father and child. You understand Father and His oldest Child?

I don't understand this question nor find it relative to one God our Father and one Christ our Lord.

Jesus existed before all things except God His Father and the birth of His own person.


I have read all that is written of Him and stated my understanding from all that is written of Him. Unlike your premise He is Gods oldest child and the Deity lives in Him is His Father. He is a Son called Mighty God. He and the Father are one.

He is begotten. He is all that the Father is.
If your speaking of all that is written of Him there would be more than fives lines.

??

I understand that's your belief, but I disagree. So Jesus had to ask for and receive His Spirit from another to send to us and speaks of the Spirit of Christ in as "another" advocate? Yet the Father stated He would pour out "His" Spirit in these last days. We know from Jesus that the Father sent the Spirit in Jesus's name.

Your questions are not scripture that proves or disproves anything. They are meaningless and based off your own premise. I may not choose to go down this rabbit hole. I really have nothing new to add on who Jesus is.

So you are a unitarian then, or an arianist regarding who Jesus was and is?

 

[Paul]

So you are a unitarian then, or an arianist regarding who Jesus was and is?

No, Biblical Unitarians believe in a glorified man that is Jesus's life began as a man. I believe Jesus's life began at some point in history before the world began. The Son who was, His spirit, was in the body prepared for Him. And as we read the Father who is deity was living in Him doing His work. They are one.

My belief
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

And about that Son
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
The image of the invisible God but not the invisible God.

Hence a Son called mighty God.

 

[Josheb]

God became a Father with His Firstborn. What relationship do you speak of before that point in time?

The relationship required any time a relational condition exists.

Was stated -Jesus, which includes His mind and own spirit which is not deity had a beginning at some point in History before the world began.
In Him the fullness was pleased to dwell. In that unity He and the Father are one. The Father is the only true Deity.

There is no point in history before the world began!

When scripture states, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," that is the beginning. That is the beginning of history. That is the beginning of time and space. Prior to that there is only God. There is no history before that, You have, therefore, not actually answered the question asked. What you've done is post a contradiction. Contradictions are never the answer to anything.

You stating that doesn't make it so as I see Father and child. You understand Father and His oldest Child?

We're not talking about my understanding. You are being ased questions about statement you made in your posts. You can either answer those questions rationally or you can't. There is no basis for asking ANYONE anything about their views because your views are the ones I am asking about. Don't try to change the subject.

I don't understand this question nor find it relative to one God our Father and one Christ our Lord.

If the question is not understood, then how can its relevance be found? Way back in Post 114 you said "A think a person has a mind and is not just spirit. A person's own spirit acts according to the will of the mind of that person. Certainly, Jesus abides in the framework of His Fathers will but He has His own mind."

And I asked you,

"When were his mind and will formed?"

You say at some point in history before the world was made but there was nothing made prior to Genesis 1:1.​

You have time, which is a created condition that is part of the created creation, existing prior to time being created! It is self-contradictory and, therefore, never the answer to anything.

I asked you,

"When you say he was "born before the ages" and his spirit formed [at] "the beginning of creation" do you realize you are contradicting yourself? Do you understand the contradiction of a beginning that occurs before the beginning ("before the world began")?"

You denied the existence of any contradiction.​

The "ages" began at Genesis 1:1. Prior to Genesis 1:1 nothing had been made. Nothing can be said to be formed or made before the ages AND at the beginning. The very first act of creating creation is the beginning of time. There is not "before" preceding that. There is no "before" before the act of creation. It's self contradictory and, therefore never an answer to anything.

"Do you realize that is not the whole of the Godhead?" The answer, and its relevance, should be obvious.
That question never got a relevant response, much less an answer.

Jesus existed before all things except God His Father and the birth of His own person.

Not if his mind and will existed prior to the making of the world. Prior to Genesis 1:1 the only thing that existed was God. If Jesus is part of the making of the heavens and the earth then he did not exist before the ages.

I have read all that is written of Him and stated my understanding from all that is written of Him.

Yes, and your understanding is lacking. That is what everyone here is trying to get across to you. The lack of understanding is evident in the selective use of scripture and the logical contradictions between one post and another. Rather than just jump into the debate with my viewpoints I asked you a few questions. I have not gotten the answers and the problem is becoming worse, not better.

Unlike your premise He is Gods oldest child and the Deity lives in Him is His Father.

That is not my premise. I do not know where you got that from but I NEVER posted any such thing. Please make a concerted effort not to misrepresent my posts, nor those of anyone else's.

He is a Son called Mighty God. He and the Father are one.

Which would make him God. I commented about this. Neither Jesus, nor the NT writers can apply to Jesus the attributes of God unless he is, in fact God. To attribute divine attributes to an otherwise ordinary creature who is not actually God is apostasy (the abandonment of religious truth), it's heresy (a belief contrary to orthodox doctrine), and it immediately disqualifies him from being the perfect sacrifice. There can never be any salvation from a creature claiming divine attributes in any manner that makes him equal with the Creator God. It's a strict unassailable dichotomy: Creator and creature. The two are never the same.

He is begotten. He is all that the Father is.

That is true, but is that ALL he is?

If your speaking of all that is written of Him there would be more than fives lines.

Yes. That is exactly right. Why then have you limited your argument to only five statements about Jesus? Yes, you have referenced more than just five verses BUT you haven't come anywhere close to asserting all that scripture states about Jesus. You've been selective with scripture and my question is designed to highlight that fact. Jesus is much MORE than the five points of Post 124.

I understand that's your belief, but I disagree.

It is not just my belief. It is what scripture states. Paul draws an equivalence between God and Jesus in his letter to the Romans.

Romans 8:9
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

The Paul is describing to different, unrelated spirits then the verse and its surrounding text is rendered senseless. The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ. There's a multitude of verse along this same line wherein Jesus interacts with the Holy Spirit in ways that, otherwise, only God can do and never the creature. Jesus commands the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, sent by the Son, to teach what Jesus taught, remind Christ's disciples what Jesus taught and testifying about Jesus (not the Father). Paul did not say Christ had the Spirit; he said the Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. It's Christ's Spirit. The Spirit that is Christ is also the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God is also the Spirit of Christ. That would be blasphemy Christ is a created creature.

It's not my belief. It's the plain word of God. Thinking it is only my personal belief with which you disagree is evidence of a selective use of scripture and a failure to understand all that the whole of scripture has to say about Jesus.

So Jesus had to ask for and receive His Spirit from another to send to us and speaks of the Spirit of Christ in as "another" advocate? Yet the Father stated He would pour out "His" Spirit in these last days.

Yep. None of that are mutually exclusive conditions. Jesus both asked for and sent (commanded) the Spirit of God. The Father did pour out His Spirit, which is the Spirit of Christ, in the last days.

We know from Jesus that the Father sent the Spirit in Jesus's name.

Which would mean a creature commanded the Creator. That's apostasy, heresy, and blasphemy all rolled up in 13 words ...... unless Jesus has the ontology consistent with those abilities. Created creatures do not get to tell their Creator what to do.

Your questions are not scripture that proves or disproves anything. They are meaningless and based off your own premise.

Scripture and logic prove otherwise.

Scripture does at least two things that attribute deity to Jesus. The first is it explicitly states Jesus is God, and the second is that it repeatedly assigns to Jesus attributes that are solely and uniquely deific. It does the latter in a manner that would otherwise be deemed apostate, heretical, blasphemous and would disqualify him as anyone savior if he were not God.

Logic tells us certain necessities about Jesus, too. For example, God AND Jesus cannot both be almighty unless they are somehow both the same God. Another example would be that God cannot be love if He exists in a void all by Himself. His aseity and independence from creation are none existent if He has to create in order to be love or just. He can be loving, but He can't be love. Why not? Because scripture's definition of sin is inherently relational! It requires an object of affection; it requires a witness of the affection other than the lover and his recipient. It requires a return of affection, otherwise love is narcissistic. To say, "I AM LOVE!" in the absence of mutual affection is narcissism, and narcissistic self-love love is unrighteous. Furthermore, and perhaps most importantly, While God might be loving prior to His having created creation, He has no experience of love fulfilled until there is a return of the affection and a witness thereof. That view means God lacks experiential knowledge of love prior to creation and that, then, means God's omniscience has been compromised. He cannot know all things if He lacks that experience of love. He can't have that experience while existing all by His lone, lonesome, lonely, single solitary Self.

You posted many great references from scripture BUT you have not considered the whole of scripture, nor have you reconciled what you've posted with that whole.

I may not choose to go down this rabbit hole. I really have nothing new to add on who Jesus is.

That's too bad. I can walk you through the whole of scripture, patiently reasoning with you in each exchange of the posts so that we can practice Ephesians 4:11-15. That should be our goal, yes?

 

[Josheb]

God became a Father with His Firstborn.

Are you familiar with the doctrines of Immutability and Divine Simplicity or Aseity?

You've just contradicted both. God cannot be unchanging if He becomes something other than what He has previously been. He cannot be all that He is in and of Himself if He is dependent upon another for any attribute. That god is not a God, and it most certainly is not the God of the Bible.

 

[Paul]

Are you familiar with the doctrines of Immutability and Divine Simplicity or Aseity?

You've just contradicted both. God cannot be unchanging if He becomes something other than what He has previously been. He cannot be all that He is in and of Himself if He is dependent upon another for any attribute. That god is not a God, and it most certainly is not the God of the Bible.

No to the first question but I disagree with their conclusion as Jesus has always been the Son.

 

[Paul]

The relationship required any time a relational condition exists.

There is no point in history before the world began!

I put good money that even the angels of God existed before the world began let alone the firstborn.

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

When scripture states, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," that is the beginning. That is the beginning of history. That is the beginning of time and space. Prior to that there is only God. There is no history before that, You have, therefore, not actually answered the question asked. What you've done is post a contradiction. Contradictions are never the answer to anything.

The firstborn of all creation is before that beginning.

We're not talking about my understanding. You are being ased questions about statement you made in your posts. You can either answer those questions rationally or you can't. There is no basis for asking ANYONE anything about their views because your views are the ones I am asking about. Don't try to change the subject.

This doesn't make your case. Your questions seem to be based on Hypothetical reasoning rather than scripture. I perfer truth as given from above.

If the question is not understood, then how can its relevance be found? Way back in Post 114 you said "A think a person has a mind and is not just spirit. A person's own spirit acts according to the will of the mind of that person. Certainly, Jesus abides in the framework of His Fathers will but He has His own mind."

And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

And I asked you,

"When were his mind and will formed?"

You say at some point in history before the world was made but there was nothing made prior to Genesis 1:1.​

You have time, which is a created condition that is part of the created creation, existing prior to time being created! It is self-contradictory and, therefore, never the answer to anything.

The beginning of the creation of God. Which again is some point in history BEFORE the world began.

I asked you,

"When you say he was "born before the ages" and his spirit formed [at] "the beginning of creation" do you realize you are contradicting yourself? Do you understand the contradiction of a beginning that occurs before the beginning ("before the world began")?"

You denied the existence of any contradiction.​

The "ages" began at Genesis 1:1. Prior to Genesis 1:1 nothing had been made. Nothing can be said to be formed or made before the ages AND at the beginning. The very first act of creating creation is the beginning of time. There is not "before" preceding that. There is no "before" before the act of creation. It's self contradictory and, therefore never an answer to anything.

I would state God exists forever through the passage of time. Whether the Father has a beginning is unknown to me. I know from scripture He's unbegotten unlike His Firstborn who is unbegotten.

You can lift up your eyes to heaven and see all that God created but can't know where Spirit originates from. God is Spirit.

"Do you realize that is not the whole of the Godhead?" The answer, and its relevance, should be obvious.
That question never got a relevant response, much less an answer.

One God and One Christ is as I read.
That's who we need to know. Apparently, this 3rd person you believe in is not needed.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Peter called Jesus the Christ, the Son of the living God. Which according to Jesus He learned from the Father and Jesus called Him blessed.

You now want God in the flesh?

Not if his mind and will existed prior to the making of the world. Prior to Genesis 1:1 the only thing that existed was God. If Jesus is part of the making of the heavens and the earth then he did not exist before the ages.

Already addressed above. He did exist,

Yes, and your understanding is lacking. That is what everyone here is trying to get across to you. The lack of understanding is evident in the selective use of scripture and the logical contradictions between one post and another. Rather than just jump into the debate with my viewpoints I asked you a few questions. I have not gotten the answers and the problem is becoming worse, not better.

That is not my premise. I do not know where you got that from but I NEVER posted any such thing. Please make a concerted effort not to misrepresent my posts, nor those of anyone else's.

Which would make him God. I commented about this. Neither Jesus, nor the NT writers can apply to Jesus the attributes of God unless he is, in fact God. To attribute divine attributes to an otherwise ordinary creature who is not actually God is apostasy (the abandonment of religious truth), it's heresy (a belief contrary to orthodox doctrine), and it immediately disqualifies him from being the perfect sacrifice. There can never be any salvation from a creature claiming divine attributes in any manner that makes him equal with the Creator God. It's a strict unassailable dichotomy: Creator and creature. The two are never the same.

That is true, but is that ALL he is?

Yes. That is exactly right. Why then have you limited your argument to only five statements about Jesus? Yes, you have referenced more than just five verses BUT you haven't come anywhere close to asserting all that scripture states about Jesus. You've been selective with scripture and my question is designed to highlight that fact. Jesus is much MORE than the five points of Post 124.

It is not just my belief. It is what scripture states. Paul draws an equivalence between God and Jesus in his letter to the Romans.

Romans 8:9
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

The Paul is describing to different, unrelated spirits then the verse and its surrounding text is rendered senseless. The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ. There's a multitude of verse along this same line wherein Jesus interacts with the Holy Spirit in ways that, otherwise, only God can do and never the creature. Jesus commands the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, sent by the Son, to teach what Jesus taught, remind Christ's disciples what Jesus taught and testifying about Jesus (not the Father). Paul did not say Christ had the Spirit; he said the Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. It's Christ's Spirit. The Spirit that is Christ is also the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God is also the Spirit of Christ. That would be blasphemy Christ is a created creature.

It's not my belief. It's the plain word of God. Thinking it is only my personal belief with which you disagree is evidence of a selective use of scripture and a failure to understand all that the whole of scripture has to say about Jesus.

Yep. None of that are mutually exclusive conditions. Jesus both asked for and sent (commanded) the Spirit of God. The Father did pour out His Spirit, which is the Spirit of Christ, in the last days.

The Spirit is just that Spirit and does act according to the will of Christ as this is the will of the mind of the Father who has placed all things into Jesus hands.
But the Spirit Jesus sends He received from the Father.

Which would mean a creature commanded the Creator. That's apostasy, heresy, and blasphemy all rolled up in 13 words ...... unless Jesus has the ontology consistent with those abilities. Created creatures do not get to tell their Creator what to do.

Jesus does not command the Father. God was with Him. God is the one who sent Him.

Scripture and logic prove otherwise.

Scripture does at least two things that attribute deity to Jesus. The first is it explicitly states Jesus is God, and the second is that it repeatedly assigns to Jesus attributes that are solely and uniquely deific. It does the latter in a manner that would otherwise be deemed apostate, heretical, blasphemous and would disqualify him as anyone savior if he were not God.

His God gifted the firstborn with oneness and the fullness of His Deity. He is God only in that context,

I believe this God was the Logos.
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being,

Logic tells us certain necessities about Jesus, too. For example, God AND Jesus cannot both be almighty unless they are somehow both the same God. Another example would be that God cannot be love if He exists in a void all by Himself. His aseity and independence from creation are none existent if He has to create in order to be love or just. He can be loving, but He can't be love. Why not? Because scripture's definition of sin is inherently relational! It requires an object of affection; it requires a witness of the affection other than the lover and his recipient. It requires a return of affection, otherwise love is narcissistic. To say, "I AM LOVE!" in the absence of mutual affection is narcissism, and narcissistic self-love love is unrighteous. Furthermore, and perhaps most importantly, While God might be loving prior to His having created creation, He has no experience of love fulfilled until there is a return of the affection and a witness thereof. That view means God lacks experiential knowledge of love prior to creation and that, then, means God's omniscience has been compromised. He cannot know all things if He lacks that experience of love. He can't have that experience while existing all by His lone, lonesome, lonely, single solitary Self.

You posted many great references from scripture BUT you have not considered the whole of scripture, nor have you reconciled what you've posted with that whole.

That's too bad. I can walk you through the whole of scripture, patiently reasoning with you in each exchange of the posts so that we can practice Ephesians 4:11-15. That should be our goal, yes?

No.
Jesus is Gods firstborn and has always been the Son. My understanding will never change as I know who I learned that from.

 

[Josheb]

No to the first question but I disagree with their conclusion as Jesus has always been the Son.

The point in dispute is the premise God changed. At one point He was not a Father and then, having birthed a son, he then became a Father. That contradicts His immutability.

 

[Paul]

The point in dispute is the premise God changed. At one point He was not a Father and then, having birthed a son, he then became a Father. That contradicts His immutability.

It did not change His being.

 

[JesusFan]

No to the first question but I disagree with their conclusion as Jesus has always been the Son.

The Second person of the trinity has always existed with the Father as very God Himself

 

[Josheb]

I put good money that even the angels of God existed before the world began let alone the firstborn.

You lose that bet. Whatever amount you thought to wager may be donates to the upkeep of this forum .

The first verse of the Bible is "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The heavens are part of the created creation. Genesis 1 is predominantly about the creation of the earth, but the Psalms and prophets speak about the creation of the heavens, including the angels.

Psalm 33:6
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and by the breath of His mouth all their host.

Psalm 148:1-5
Praise the LORD! Praise the LORD from the heavens; Praise Him in the heights! Praise Him, all His angels; Praise Him, all His heavenly armies! Praise Him, sun and moon; Praise Him, all stars of light! Praise Him, highest heavens, and the waters that are above the heavens! They are to praise the name of the LORD, for He commanded and they were created. He has also established them forever and ever; He has made a decree, and it will not pass away.

Angels are created creatures.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made, and without him nothing was made that has been made.

ALL things were made by God. The word "all" means all. That would include the angels. Furthermore, it was through Jesus, the logos of God that is God, that all the made things were made. Therefore, the question still stands, How do you explain the relational attributes of God prior too His having created when there were no other people around?

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

The firstborn of all creation is before that beginning.

Then he is the beginning, and you've got two beginnings OR you're calling what was created after the beginning the beginning. I've explained this to you twice now: The very first creative act of God - whatever it might have been - is what established the beginning. Time is the measure of cause and effect. The moment God began to speak creation into existence time was created. God is the cause and creation is the effect. Jesus cannot be both created before creation and creation. That's self-contradictory.

This doesn't make your case. Your questions seem to be based on Hypothetical reasoning rather than scripture. I perfer truth as given from above.

No, they are not based on hypothetical reasoning. They are based on the explicit report of whole scripture. This is why I asked you if those five points were ALL that scripture had to say about Jesus. I asked because you have been very selective with scripture. You haven't consider its whole. In addition to the five points you made earlier scripture also tells us the angels are created creatures, part of the "heavenly host," beings who were created when God created the heavens and the earth. They were not around, they did not exist prior to God creating creation.

God was therefore alone if Jesus is a created creature and the Holy Spirit is simply part of God.


It's a huge, gaping inconsistency in your view of God.

I would state God exists forever through the passage of time.

Yes, but time did not exist prior to creation being created. God existed prior to the existence of times and space and He is not bound by their limits. God is extra-temporal.

You can lift up your eyes to heaven and see all that God created but can't know where Spirit originates from. God is Spirit.

Scripture tells us the angels were created.

One God and One Christ is as I read.

Yes, but that is not ALL that scripture has to say about Jesus' existence. Repeating the same line over and over and over and over ad nauseam is not a rational argument for anything. John 1 explicitly states Jesus was with God in the beginning. Jesus was with God in the beginning when all the heavens and the earth were created. Jesus was with God in the beginning when the hosts of heaven were created. By him, through him, and for him were all things made. Jesus' existence precedes the creation of creation.

That's who we need to know. Apparently, this 3rd person you believe in is not needed.

Please do not misrepresent my posts. I've never said any such thing, and you've been a member of this forum long enough to read my posts on salvation. Don't be a troll.

Jesus is Gods firstborn and has always been the Son.

That is not all that Jesus is.

My understanding will never change as I know who I learned that from.

Well, you should bend your understanding to the whole of scripture.


As it stands you do not have an explanation for how it is God can be love in the void prior to His creating creation. You've got a single, solitary, lone, lonesome God with no one to love until he births Jesus. You've got a God no one loves until after he births His Son. You've got a God with absolutely no experiential knowledge of love until after He births a Son. You've got a God who is not omniscient until after He creates. You've got a God who is not immutable because He becomes something entirely new and different (and Father) when He births a Son.

There are all very real and substantive problems because that god is not the God of the Bible.


Let's put all that on a back burner for the time being and let me try a completely different approach. Scripture says creation was created by Jesus, through Jesus, and for Jesus.

John 1:3
All things were made through him, and without him nothing was made that was made.

Colossians 1:15-16
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities — all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the world has been created by the word of God so that what is seen has not been made out of things that are visible.


The word of God (Jesus) created the world. All things were created by him (both in the heavens and on the earth). All things were created through him and for him as well. Yes or no?

 

[Arial]

God was therefore alone if Jesus is a created creature and the Holy Spirit is simply part of God.

And if he is alone, he cannot be love since love is directional and involves more than one.

 

[Josheb]

And if he is alone, he cannot be love since love is directional and involves more than one.

Exactly.

It's a huge, gaping, non-sensical whole in every non-Trin pov, and that is why they so often (incorrectly) believe angels existed prior to creation being created and helped God create (contrary to what scripture teaches). There are other problems (such as not rendering the verses that speak of Jesus' birth or createdness within the light of whole scripture) but this problem a solitary, lone, lonesome God proves particularly fatal.