Are you born again ? Then here you are...

[JIM]

There is no faith apart from the rebirth, for spiritually dead men cannot do anything spiritual.

Where in the Bible do you read that? Obeying God's law, no matter how imperfectly is spiritual. Reading the words of the Holy Spirit, God's word the Bible, is spiritual. That doesn't mean the one doing such things is spiritual.

Faith is not the result of being reborn; rather, being reborn is the result of having one's sins forgiven and being given the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eleanor]

Where in the Bible do you read that? Obeying God's law, no matter how imperfectly is spiritual. Reading the words of the Holy Spirit, God's word the Bible, is spiritual. That doesn't mean the one doing such things is spiritual.

Faith is not the result of being reborn; rather, being reborn is the result of having one's sins forgiven and being given the gift of the Holy Spirit.

We are spiritually dead men until we are born again into eternal life.

Spiritually dead men are completely incapable of anything spiritual, just as naturally dead men are completely incapable of anything natural.
That includes obeying God's law according to his standards, and spiritually understanding what one reads in the words of the Holy Spirit.

 

[JIM]

We are spiritually dead men until we are born again into eternal life.

Spiritually dead men are completely incapable of anything spiritual, just as naturally dead men are completely incapable of anything natural.
That includes obeying God's law according to his standards, and spiritually understanding what one reads in the words of the Holy Spirit.

Spiritually dead men can walk, talk, think, read, eat, drink, love, hate, etc., etc. According to you the one thing they can't do is understand anything in God's word. What that really means is that you believe that God is incapable of communicating with a spiritually dead person. That of course is total nonsense.

 

[Eleanor]

We are spiritually dead men until we are born again into eternal life.
Spiritually dead men are completely incapable of anything spiritual, just as naturally dead men are completely incapable of anything natural.
That includes obeying God's law according to his standards, and spiritually understanding what one reads in the words of the Holy Spirit.

Spiritually dead men can walk, talk, think, read, eat, drink, love, hate, etc., etc.

Strawman.

According to you the one thing they can't do is understand anything in God's word. What that really means is that you believe that God is incapable of communicating with a spiritually dead person. That of course is total nonsense.

It's not about what God is capable of, it's about what he has revealed.
And he has revealed that only those who are born again can even see the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3-5).
He has revealed that he communicates only with the born again, and also that
the re-birth is by sovereign decision of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8).

 

[brightfame52]

@JIM

Spiritually dead men can walk, talk, think, read, eat, drink, love, hate, etc., etc

Physically maybe, but not Spiritually, since Spiritually they have no life in them. Jn 6:53

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

 

[JIM]

Strawman.

It's not about what God is capable of, it's about what he has revealed.
And he has revealed that only those who are born again can even see the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3-5).
He has revealed that he communicates only with the born again, and also that
the re-birth is by sovereign decision of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8).

I think you are misinterpreting what Jesus is saying in John3:3. I believe that John 3:5 is a repeat of John 3:3 for emphasis. You are interpreting the word" see" to mean "believe". I think it means to experience, to enjoy, to take part in. That is, essentially the same thing as enter the kingdom as in verse 5.

Question: Under the circumstances, do you think that Nicodemus was born again before Jesus spoke to him as recorded in John 3 given his question in verse 9? Perhaps a more important question would be whether being born again was even an issue before Pentecost and the inauguration of the New Covenant. But perhaps that is a bit outside the topic here.

 

[Eleanor]

I think you are misinterpreting what Jesus is saying in John3:3. I believe that John 3:5 is a repeat of John 3:3 for emphasis. You are interpreting the word" see" to mean "believe".

Actually, I am interpreting the word "see" in the sense of 1 Co 2:14: "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, he cannot understand them because they are foolishness to him."
I am interpreting the word "see" to mean "understand."

I think it means to experience, to enjoy, to take part in. That is, essentially the same thing as enter the kingdom as in verse 5.

Rebirth is necessary to even perceive the kingdom of God.

Question: Under the circumstances, do you think that Nicodemus was born again before Jesus spoke to him as recorded in John 3 given his question in verse 9? Perhaps a more important question would be whether being born again was even an issue before Pentecost and the inauguration of the New Covenant. But perhaps that is a bit outside the topic here.

They had to be reborn to believingly trust in the promise (Ge 15:5, seed; Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

 

[JIM]

Actually, I am interpreting the word "see" in the sense of 1 Co 2:14: "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, he cannot understand them because they are foolishness to him."
I am interpreting the word "see" to mean "understand."

Rebirth is necessary to even perceive the kingdom of God.

They had to be reborn to believingly trust in the promise (Ge 15:5, seed; Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

For what it is worth, I think that regeneration is a uniquely New Covenant action by God.

 

[Eleanor]

For what it is worth, I think that regeneration is a uniquely New Covenant action by God.

What about the difference between the new birth of the OT and the new birth of the NT being the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the NT?

 

[JIM]

What about the difference between the new birth of the OT and the new birth of the NT being the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the NT?

Where do you read of the new birth of the OT?

 

[Eleanor]

Where do you read of the new birth of the OT?

Good question. We don't.

It follows from NT revelation regarding the new birth in Jn 3:3-5,
where faith is impossible apart from the new birth (1 Co 2:4),
where the new birth is by sovereign act of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:3-8), and
where faith is a gift (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, Ac 18:27 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

God's spiritual economy always operates by the same laws, because man's fallen nature always is of, and operates by, the same laws.
Keeping in mind that the OT is the NT concealed, while the NT is the OT revealed, including God's spiritual economy.

 

[JIM]

Good question. We don't.

God's spiritual economy always operates by the same laws, because man's fallen nature always is of, and operates by, the same laws.
Keeping in mind that the OT is the NT concealed, while the NT is the OT revealed, including God's spiritual economy.

Where do you get such stuff? The OT is not the NT concealed. The OT is basically the Law of Moses and the NT is basically the Gospel. They are not at all the same. In fact, Paul goes to great lengths to differentiate the two.

 

[brightfame52]

Where do you read of the new birth of the OT?

Its implied because some men had faith, and faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

 

[JIM]

Its implied because some men had faith, and faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

Bad translation/interpretation; the fruit of the Spirit is faithfulness, not faith.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

 

[Eleanor]

Where do you get such stuff?

From an integrated understanding of the whole Bible.

The OT is not the NT concealed. The OT is basically the Law of Moses and the NT is basically the Gospel.

Actually, the whole Mosaic law was to teach the meaning of sin (spiritual defilement).
And the sacrificial system was to teach the remedy for that sin, substiutional death for the sinner (in the coming atoning sacrifice of Christ).

The meaning of the OT law and sacrifices (sinful nature and the atoning death of the Son of God) was concealed until it was revealed in the NT.

 

[brightfame52]

Bad translation/interpretation; the fruit of the Spirit is faithfulness, not faith.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Faith and faithfulness is the fruit of the Spirit

 

[JIM]

From an integrated understanding of the whole Bible.

Actually, the whole Mosaic law was to teach the meaning of sin (spiritual defilement).
And the sacrificial system was to teach the remedy for that sin, substiutional death for the sinner (in the coming atoning sacrifice of Christ).

The meaning of the OT law and sacrifices (sinful nature and the atoning death of the Son of God) was concealed until it was revealed in the NT.

The meaning of the OT law and sacrifices was not concealed. The Law was there for all to see. What was concealed was the Gospel.

 

[JIM]

Faith and faithfulness is the fruit of the Spirit

That is not what that verse says. Even many, perhaps most, Reformed commentators read that as faithfulness not faith.

 

[brightfame52]

The meaning of the OT law and sacrifices was not concealed. The Law was there for all to see. What was concealed was the Gospel.

The Gospel wasnt concealed, unless one was lost, but Abraham had the Gospel Preached to him and he believed it Gal 3:8

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

So Abe, Isaac, and Jacob and all the people of Faith heard and believed the Gospel of Christ

 

[Eleanor]

The meaning of the OT law and sacrifices was not concealed.

Do you think they knew they were a prefigure of the human sacrifice of the Son of God in payment for their sin?

The Law was there for all to see. What was concealed was the Gospel.

Yes, the Ten Commandments were not concealed.

Rather, the meaning of all the sacrificial, food, defilement, cleansing laws was concealed.
Those were not actual moral sin. They were ceremonial sin to teach the meaning of actual moral sin; i.e., spiritual defilement which requires cleansing.