A problem with premillennialism

[Josheb]

I've just got to keep on saying it. It is truly a marvellous delight to see how the true Christ has written His Scripture so sure and simple, so as to confirm His doctrine and prophecy in any given place of Scripture.

The problem is none of those verses were read "sure and simple." NONE of them explicitly state Jesus will physically be living on the earth for a thousand years. One of the verses, for example, explicitly states the earth will be judged, but it says nothing about Jesus physically living on the earth at that time. It is truly a marvelous delight that scripture was written so sure and simple and that is the exact point to which I have endeavored to get and point out to all the premillennialists in the thread: scripture is marvelously sure and simple, but you guys muck up the sureness and simplicity of scripture by adding to it something NEVER stated, and when asked a a valid and simple question like, "Where does scripture explicitly state Jesus will physically be living on earth physically ruling the earth?" a pile of verses get posted that never explicitly state "Jesus will physically be living on the earth, physically ruling the earth." It surely and simply never happens. When the failure to answer the question asked is noted then ad hominem and other fallacies ensue. That is the sure and simple response from premillennialists, and it happened right here in this thread by all the premils in the thread for all to see.

the failure to correctly answer and the abuse of others is surely and simply there to be seen.

And it is surely and simply seen by everyone, but the premils do not see it.

So I am going to answer the question as it should have been answered pages ago, and move past this question onto the next question.

Premillennialism is the only eschatology that says Jesus is physically living on the earth again and physically ruling the earth from earth. Premillennialism separates itself from all other Christian thought, doctrine, and practice on this point; no other end times view has Jesus leaving his heavenly throne for an earthly one or moving the heavenly throne to earth. Premillennialism alone does that. There is no verse in the entire Bible explicitly stating Jesus leaves heaven and physically lives on earth for a thousand years. None. Such a statement simply does not exist explicitly stated in the Bible. This means that the "physically living on earth" position is reached solely by inference. To reiterate: The physically-living-on-earth position is not explicitly stated so it must be inferentially obtained. This practice then begs other very real, very valid, very simple questions, such as,

• Why base a position on the silence of scripture? What would be the basis for doing so?
• Why invent a position based solely on inference?
• Are the inferences exegetic?
• Why not go with the surety and simplicity of what is explicitly stated?
• Is it possible to ask any of these questions and get an immediate response that is based on God's word, does not contain more fallacy, and does not attack others?

So let's see what happens. My next question is:


Since scripture nowhere explicitly states Jesus is physically living on earth for one thousand years, why base a position on the silence of scripture?
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Job shall surely see his Redeemer stand upon the earth in the last times, as the true God with all power over earth. (He'll also give that promised land Abraham walked on, to Abraham personally standing upon the earth...)

No, Job and Abraham saw Jesus "standing" on the earth. No one denies that. Standing on the earth judging the earth does not mean he is physically living on the earth for a thousand years. You've taken the word "stand" and replaced it, or made it equivalent with "living."

This is important because there are many verses reporting Jesus standing on the earth. Many of them cannot be taken literally because a literal reading of the verse would mean something logically and/or physically untenable. For example, Zechariah speaks of Jesus standing on Mt. Olive and an earthquake occurring that divides the mountain east and west. In reality, if such an earthquake were to occur it would destroy Jerusalem (and its inhabitants). In other words, taking that verse literally would mean Jesus' standing on the earth is very violent and destructive (the antithesis of a thousand-year rule) and since Jerusalem would be destroyed Jesus would have to find some other city in which to live, from which to rule. It would mean God destroyed the place from which He meant to rule. This is like those people who read the third of the stars falling to earth literally. If just one star fell to earth and collided with it the earth and all life upon it would be destroyed. Because the earth would be destroyed by a literal reading of the verse we know the verse is not to be read literally.

It is not to be read literally.

If read inferentially, then it is not okay to replace words like "stand" with words like "live for a thousand years."

It is bad exegesis.

So...


Since scripture nowhere explicitly states Jesus is physically living on earth for one thousand years, why base a position on the silence of scripture?


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[Musicmaster]

TI do not think i injected meaning comes from the scripture parables Its not is it does not say parable than as for silver or gold parables have thier purpose. The teach us to walk by faith the unseen eternal things . I can remember the first time the spirit worked in me and stared reading the bible everything seems like a parable Some believe it was designed that way, God through parables drawing dying mankind to his understanding. . to give them rest

'If it was not for the milk of the word as that which teaches us God is gracious, merciful, long suffering .I think I would of given up again as usual . kept reading, the things that made no sense. I am a slow learner. I think like Peter.

Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Parables the mysteries of faith. Faith the unseen eternal things of God Two levels of interpretation the temporal historical nd the unseen spiritual


Seems like you have the wrong kind fear of parables as prophecy Mixing the temporal historical with the unseen eternal things of God they must be mixed or no gospel understanding as a rest

Christ did not leave us as orphan without that valuable 20/20 mixing prescription in order to help us understanding his parables i

2 Corinthians 4:18King James Version18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


Bible, the mystery of eternal invisible God . LOL best mystery book on the market.Best seller Jesus said search it as it for silver or gold (elements of faith)

You did indeed inject meaning into those 24 elders by saying 12 represent Israel and 12 the apostles. The text simply does not state that. I mean, its ok to muse about such things, but to teach it as something the scriptures say outright...no. That's the substance if meaningful injection. The 24 elders, in what they represent, is real, not allegorical. No parable, but reality as it is. The different English translations of the Bible, the more recent being the most corrupt, teach entirely different representations and reality about those elders, and I find that to be inexcusable on the part of those "scholars" who are Gnostic in their leanings.

Oh, and we were not talking about Matthew 13, so your falling down that rabbit hole wasn't value added.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

We are shown Christ physically coming back to this earth at the end of the tribulation, and nowhere does the text state that He leaves the earth once again back up into Heaven. Those who doubt that Yahshuah rules om this earth in Person, they have nothing whatsoever at which to point!

On the other hand, we have this:

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 14:16-17
16 And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

I've challenged the nay-sayers to show to me one verse that even hints at His departure after that battle, and they do not more than harangue about there not being a verse expressly stating that He rules UPON this earth. In other words, they're willing to ignore the implications stated in these verses, and others, firmly believing in what is utterly silent and not even hinted at nor implied, as if that proves their case...

Whom are all those nations going to worship if not he King right there in their sight? Are they going to worship toward a building allegedly harboring the Ark of the Covenant, as did the ancient Jews, or a statue of some semblance of Yahshuah? Is it too hard for Yahshuah to physically dwell on this earth to rule it with an iron rod? The lack of any sense behind this strange belief, although peripheral in importance, still causes one to pause and wonder what strange things they may believe about some of the core doctrines of the faith. The Gnostics who inject into scripture what isn't there are already cause for alarm to the tranquility behind allowing scripture to speak for itself without practicing eisegesis.

Either way, Christ WILL rule this earth with an iron fist, even if the nations worship whom they cannot see because of some departure the scriptures never speak about. Logical fallacies seem the forte' of the imaginative.

MM

 

[TMSO]

Lets say the premill understanding of the millennial age is a biblical one. (I dont believe it is) But let's say for a minute it is.
What would be the consequences of this interpretation of Revelation 20:1-10?

If Premill-ism is true, that means the Jesus returns to judge the world in Revelation 19 and to set up his millennial reign in Revelation 20. But what happens at the end of Christ's Millennial reign over the earth?

Jesus doesn't return to judge the world in Revelation 19. He returns to destroy the armies that are moving onto Jerusalem to destroy Jerusalem. The armies of the beast and his image, and the kings of the Earth. Once He does this, He goes to Jerusalem, and they see Him whom they have pierced, and have a "come to Jesus" moment. It is kind of the same thing that happened to Saul. Jesus shows up, they see Him, they recognize Him, and they are broken. This knowledge of who Jesus is, and that even though they rejected Him, He has saved them and now come to them, will break them. Zechariah 12 and 13. The rebellion of Israel ends then. The thing to note however, is that those who remain (see Zechariah 12), are the elect of Israel, the remnant that remains. God's true chosen of Israel.

According to Rev 20:7-10, Satan is released from the pit and immediately goes out to the four corners to deceive the nations (Those same nations that have already been judged according to Rev 19:15).

Where does it say they were judged in Revelation 19:15? "15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will [a]rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the [b]wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty."

He will rule over them? How, unless He is a King? This is not the judgment. The judgement is at the end of Revelation 20. Once Jesus defeats the armies, all that remains are those who survived, Jews and Gentiles. They are all believers. They will populate the Earth, still alive, still in the flesh, for the Millennium. They will have children, who will not have had the privilege of going through what their parents went through. They won't know Jesus and God like their parents. Now, as to whether anyone dies during this period, I don't think we can be certain. Death would be for physical reasons, not sin reasons. It is this group of people, those who populate the Earth, who Satan will go out to deceive after being released.

Satan organizes them for battle against the camp of God's people and the city God loves, that is - Jerusalem. This revolt ends when fire comes fddown from heaven and consumes the rebels along with the devil who deceived them.

Mostly, yeah. However Satan is taken and thrown into the lake of fire, along with death and hades. (The final conquering of death.) With the final conquering of death, the Son returns the Kingdom to the Father, and we enter the eternal age, with the old creation, old heavens and Earth destroyed, and a new heavens and new earth, unstained by sin.

But the question remains, Who are these people whom the devil received, who then revolt against God, only to be consumed by fire from heaven?

According to Premills one group of people on earth during the millennial age are the redeemed. No one believes that it is possible for such people who have been raised from the dead in the general resurrection, and who are now glorified, to participate in a revolt like the one depicted in Rev 20.

There are not people who have been raised from the dead. These believers survived the tribulation. Along with the Jews who survived the tribulation. They aren't killed or resurrected. They are just... alive. All the believers live in Israel and Jerusalem, with Jesus their Messiah. (The resurrected believers from the tribulation.)

Therefore those who revolt during the millennium must be individuals who have not been raised from the dead or who have not gone through the judgement when Christ returned to earth when the millennial age began.

Yes. They are the offspring of those believers who didn't die in the tribulation.

Dipsy's believe these are people who came to faith after the rapture and survived the great tribulation and wrath of the antichrist. On the other, Historic premills, believe that these are people living at the time of Jesus' return who were not raised from the dead or judged and who subsequently repopulated the earth during the millennial age.

That is the same thing. Everyone who followed the beast will be in his armies. Hence the massive size of his armies. Do you think God will allow those who worshiped the beast and his image and have his mark, escape the judgment proclaimed by the angels from God earlier in Revelation?

 

[Musicmaster]

For those precious souls out there who miss the obvious, it's worth stating once again that the nations, traveling to Jerusalem each year to worship the King, the obvious implications and the bold statement that makes is most telling in itself.

Zechariah 14:16-17
16 And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

His presence is obviously in that place at that time, and throughout that time, given the severity of the nations NOT traveling to Jerusalem to do as commanded. The silly notion that they will worship the King through some proxy ceremony or something akin to the smoke of His presence as was said to be in the OT temples, that's just more silly injections of Gnostics who play on wishful thinking, or, worse yet, they will poison the well with some sort of genetic fallacy drawn from an authority they happen to like in the moment.

MM

 

[Josheb]

We are shown Christ physically coming back to this earth at the end of the tribulation, and nowhere does the text state that He leaves the earth once again back up into Heaven.

No, we are not. That belief is a construction of premillennialism, not all of Christianity, and (as has already been noted and nowhere refuted) there is NOTHING in Revelation 19 or 20 that explicitly state Jesus is physically living on earth for a thousand years. When the survivors of the great tribulation are in heaven Jesus is there with them, not on earth, and his throne is in heaven, not on the earth.

Revelation 7:9-15
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen." Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

Saints went through the great tribulation; they were not raptured away to escape it. When they are received in heaven they do so before the throne of the Lamb. These are huge problems for premillennialism, especially the premillennialism that separates the rapture from the final coming of Christ. Ony Dispensational Premillennialism does that. ALL other Christian eschatology keeps the rapture and return of Christ as coinciding with one another.

 

[Musicmaster]

No, we are not. That belief is a construction of premillennialism, not all of Christianity, and (as has already been noted and nowhere refuted) there is NOTHING in Revelation 19 or 20 that explicitly state Jesus is physically living on earth for a thousand years. When the survivors of the great tribulation are in heaven Jesus is there with them, not on earth, and his throne is in heaven, not on the earth.

Revelation 7:9-15
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen." Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

Saints went through the great tribulation; they were not raptured away to escape it. When they are received in heaven they do so before the throne of the Lamb. These are huge problems for premillennialism, especially the premillennialism that separates the rapture from the final coming of Christ. Ony Dispensational Premillennialism does that. ALL other Christian eschatology keeps the rapture and return of Christ as coinciding with one another.

Yes, the tribulation saints will go through the tribulation, but not the Church.

Also, you have not yet shown us one verse that says the Lord returned to Heaven immediately after wiping out Israel's enemies at the end of the Tribulation. So, demanding others show a verse expressing what is clearly implied and logically deducible from the text that I quoted, you have no case other than to parrot the same old worn out argument from silence.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

It's amazing how much irrational denial there is for the fact that Christ will indeed reign upon this earth throughout the Millennium, as is made abundantly clear in Zechariah 14 with His Feet touching down upon the Mt of Olives, it splits in two, and not one word is said of His physically returning to Heaven to rule from there, absent from the earth in Person. The ludicrous nature of that silly claim is nothing more than eisegetical hermeneutics based upon some pre-conceived dogma of preterism or some other strange system of thought that requires massive amounts of injected elements of man-made interpretations and wishful thinking in order to foist that idea onto the text in the absence of even a hint at such a concept.

MM

 

[Josheb]

Yes, the tribulation saints will go through the tribulation, but not the Church.

You made that up. That is NOT what scripture states. I would ask for an explicit statement from scripture proving that claim but I am still waiting on the scripture explicitly stating Jesus is physically living on earth and physically ruling or a literal 1000 years.

This is another problem with premillennialism: as premillennialists assert their premillennialism more and more claims are made that have no basis in what scripture explicitly states. Premillennialists cannot be relied upon to answer these kinds of questions with well-rendered scripture and, as a result, the eschatology unwittingly turns its adherents into people they do no consciously want to be: mishandlers of God's word.

Also, you have not yet shown us one verse that says the Lord returned to Heaven immediately after wiping out Israel's enemies at the end of the Tribulation.

I have not shown that because 1) the onus if first on the premillennialists to prove their claims - beginning with the claim Jesus is physically on earth physically ruling for a literal thousand years), and 2) The Bible never states Jesus wipes out Israel's enemies at the end of the tribulation, and 3) I have, in fact, already posted scripture explicitly stating the Lord reigns from heaven until AFTER the LORD has defeated the Lord's enemies.... so go back and reread the posts and stop asking me for proof I have already posted.

So, demanding others show a verse expressing what is clearly implied and logically deducible from the text that I quoted, you have no case other than to parrot the same old worn out argument from silence.

MM

The posts prove otherwise. Scripture explicitly states the Lord remains enthroned in heaven until the LORD defeats the Lord's enemies. I provided the scripture, and you could not and did not provide a single verse explicitly stating Jesus is physically living on the earth. Yours is the view of silence and inference, not mine.

So now you're also a straw man maker.

This is what premillennialism does to its adherents. Are you a Dispensationalist, @Musicmaster ? Surely you can answer that question with a simple and concise "yes" or "no" without delay and further obfuscation.

 

[Musicmaster]

You made that up. That is NOT what scripture states. I would ask for an explicit statement from scripture proving that claim but I am still waiting on the scripture explicitly stating Jesus is physically living on earth and physically ruling or a literal 1000 years.

This is another problem with premillennialism: as premillennialists assert their premillennialism more and more claims are made that have no basis in what scripture explicitly states. Premillennialists cannot be relied upon to answer these kinds of questions with well-rendered scripture and, as a result, the eschatology unwittingly turns its adherents into people they do no consciously want to be: mishandlers of God's word.

I have not shown that because 1) the onus if first on the premillennialists to prove their claims - beginning with the claim Jesus is physically on earth physically ruling for a literal thousand years), and 2) The Bible never states Jesus wipes out Israel's enemies at the end of the tribulation, and 3) I have, in fact, already posted scripture explicitly stating the Lord reigns from heaven until AFTER the LORD has defeated the Lord's enemies.... so go back and reread the posts and stop asking me for proof I have already posted.

The posts prove otherwise. Scripture explicitly states the Lord remains enthroned in heaven until the LORD defeats the Lord's enemies. I provided the scripture, and you could not and did not provide a single verse explicitly stating Jesus is physically living on the earth. Yours is the view of silence and inference, not mine.

So now you're also a straw man maker.

This is what premillennialism does to its adherents. Are you a Dispensationalist, @Musicmaster ? Surely you can answer that question with a simple and concise "yes" or "no" without delay and further obfuscation.

You are so big on the lack of specific mention of Christ physically ruling on this earth during the millennium, and yet turn right around and overlook ANY mention of the Church on this earth throughout the chapters of Revelation that describe the events of the tribulation.

Don't you see that as being at least somewhat subjective and out of line with consistency? Zecheriah is very clear on the fact that the Feet of Christ touch down upon the Mount of Olives, with no mention of His departure to rule from afar, as you seem to assume into the text.

Claiming that the Lord is shown to ONLY be enthroned in Heave, that's a complete denial of what scripture actually says to the contrary!

So, what's the basis, if any, by which you validate your injections into the text?

MM

 

[Josheb]

You are....

You have got to stop the ad hominems.

Keep your posts about the posts and not the posters! This op is about the problem(s) with premillennialism. This op is not about you. This op is not about me. If you cannot stop posting derogatory comments about others then do not expect me (or anyone else) to put up with yu or continue to discuss anything with you.

The FACT is there is no verse in the Bible explicitly stating Jesus is physically on earth during Revelation 20's 1000 years BUT THERE IS PLENTY OF SCRIPTURE EXPLICITLY STATING JESUS IS IN HEAVEN, and proof of the latter has already been posted. Iti s NOT an argument from silence.

• Scripture explicitly stating Jesus is physically on earth = 0 (zero)
• Scripture explicitly stating Jesus is in heaven commanding commands in heaven having effect on earth = piles of scripture, beginning with Psalm 110 and Revelation 1-19.

It is NOT an argument from silence. What it is the fact scripture is silent about Jesus being physically on earth but NOT SILENT about his being in heaven. In any other topic with any two people in which one person can show nothing explicit and the other can show a plethors that is explicit it is the one with scripture whose case is correct.

It has nothing to do with you or me personally and to mischaracterize it as an argument of silence shows a profound lack of understanding regarding what qualifies as an argument from silence.

Don't you see that as being at least somewhat subjective and out of line with consistency?

Yes, I see that you are otu of line with what is explicitly stated in scripture, preferring instead a bunch of inferences nowhere substantiated by anything explicit and are, therefore inconsistent with the whole of God's word and every single verse removed from their surrounding text and proof-texted to contradict the very plain, simple, and very real fact there is nothing in Revelation reporting Jesus is physically on earth until chapter 21.

And if you bother to re-read the book of Revelation while we are having this conversation then you will find out what I just said is true and correct: Jesus is not physically on earth until chapter 21.

Premillennialism has the physical coming incorrect.

Zecheriah is very clear on the fact that the Feet of Christ touch down upon the Mount of Olives, with no mention of His departure to rule from afar, as you seem to assume into the text.

LOL! That "with no mention of his departure," is an argument from silence!

And the fact is I have already covered the Zechariah 14:4's text reporting Jesus's feet stand on the Mount of Olives. You have ignored that post. Even if Zechariah 14:4 is about Jesus physically standing on the Mount of Olives, that verse cannot be read to contradict the fact Revelation does not have Jesus physically coming to earth until chapter 21.

Claiming that the Lord is shown to ONLY be enthroned in Heaven, that's a complete denial of what scripture actually says to the contrary!

You have yet to prove any contradiction. You continually posting claims of contradiction without every posting any proof is worthless. The fact remains I can post and have posted many verses stating Jesus is in heaven, and you have not posted a single verse that explicitly states he's on earth. The text accompanying Zechariah 14:4 has an earthquake happening that would destroy Jerusalem. If Jerusalem is destroyed, then Jesus cannot physically sit on a throne in Jerusalem when Jerusalem no longer exists. Logic is our friend. The logic of Jesus setting foot on the Mount of Olives and causing an earthquake that then destroys the city of peace (Jeru = city; salem = peace) and then he sits on a physical throne in the destroyed city he destroyed at his coming is irrational . It is a HUGE problem in premillennialism. A HUGE problem that is created by misreading Zech. 14:4. A huge problem created by removing Zech 14:4 from its surrounding text and making it mean something it cannot possibly mean when the verse is considered along with the rest of the passage from which the verse is selectively removed.

That is bad exegesis.


And it does NOT change the fact Revelation 19 and or 20 repeatedly has Jesus in heaven and NEVER has him physically on earth.

 

[Josheb]

So, what's the basis, if any, by which you validate your injections into the text?

You are asking a question already answered, and a question already answered in multiple ways. Go back and re-read the thread. Re-read it with your Bible open and check every single verse mentioned by every poster. You will see that every single premillennialist has made verses say things they do not actually state and where a premillennial interpretation is asserted that has ALWAYS happened by selecting individual verses and removing them from their surrounding verses and then making them say things that cannot possibly mean when the whole of the passage is read as written. You will also find the premillennialists have taken OT verse and interpreted them in ways contradictory to the fact Revelation 19 and 20 NEVER report Jesus is physically on earth but, instead, ALWAYS have in in heaven and it is not until chapter 21 that he is said to come to earth.

In other words, if you are reading what has been posted, then you will find the premillennialists take individual OT verses and try to make Revelation 20 say something it does not actually state.

It is a huge problem in premillennialism and every single premillennialist here has practiced that problem.


On the other hand, when I posted something, I backed it up with scripture and ANYONE who bothers to look up the verses I posted will then see what scriptures states is what was posted. I purposefully did NOT add or subtract anything from the verses quoted (or cited). I purposefully did not choose verses that are inferential. I purposefully started with what is explicitly stated. I purposefully asked every other poster to do the same. We start with what is stated. We then work from what is explicitly stated to what can be exegetically inferred. There is not one premillennialist in this thread who has done that, and the PROOF is in the fact not one premillennialist here has actually answered the question(s) asked. They answered questions not asked.

My "injections" have all already been validated. Not a single premillennial "injection" has been validated. Appeals to Zechariah 14:4 ignore the fact,

Zechariah 14:1-5
Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!

A violent earthquake will occur. The earthquake is so violent that - if the text is taken literally - then the entire city of Jerusalem will be destroyed and that is contradictory to the premillennial interpretation of Jesus physically living on earth physically ruling from Jerusalem. Thi is not the only problem with the premillennial interpretation of Zechariah 14:4. The passage also states,

Zechariah 14:6-11
In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one. All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin's Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's wine presses. People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security.

Which is comparable to what is described in Revelation 21-22.

Revelation 21:22-22:5
I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

In Zech 14 there is no light and there is neither day or night. Living waters flow from the city all the time. Zech. 14 is about what happens in Revelation 21-22. Zech. 14 is about what happens after Revelation 19-20. In other words, Zechariah 14 is about what happens after the thousand years of Revelation 20. It is post-millennial. Compare the two passage (Zechariah 14:1-11 and Revelation 21:22-22:5) and see for yourself. Let the text of scripture speak for itself without ANY added interpretation. Bend your end times views to scripture, not the other way around. All of this was mentioned (with less detail) in earlier posts, so....

Stop asking me questions I have already answered .

Scripture repeatedly has Jesus in heaven ruling the earth from heaven. His throne is the resurrection, and his rule governs BOTH heaven AND earth, and Revelation does not report him coming to earth until chapter 21. And I can prove that with scripture AND the scriptures I employ explicitly state what I posted without any added interpretation. Premillennialists do not do any of that. If they did then they would start with a vese that explicitly states Jesus is physically on earth physically ruling for a thousand years and they'd use verses soundly exegeted instead of selectively removing a verse from its surrounding text to make it mean something it cannot possible mean when read as written in its scripturally-provided context. When it come to the millennium (the thousand years of Revelation 20), they most definitely would not make Old Testament verses contradict what is explicitly stated in Revelation.

So, what's the basis, if any, by which you validate your injections into the text?

MM

It's all there in the thread if you'll just read it with Bible in hand and open.

 

[Carbon]

It's amazing how much irrational denial there is for the fact that Christ will indeed reign upon this earth throughout the Millennium, as is made abundantly clear in Zechariah 14

No, that's not clear at all. I know dipsy's would like that though.

 

[Josheb]

It's amazing how much irrational denial there is for the fact that Christ will indeed reign upon this earth throughout the Millennium, as is made abundantly clear in Zechariah 14 with His Feet touching down upon the Mt of Olives, it splits in two, and not one word is said of His physically returning to Heaven to rule from there, absent from the earth in Person. The ludicrous nature of that silly claim is nothing more than eisegetical hermeneutics based upon some pre-conceived dogma of preterism or some other strange system of thought that requires massive amounts of injected elements of man-made interpretations and wishful thinking in order to foist that idea onto the text in the absence of even a hint at such a concept.

MM

Utter hogwash.

 

[Carbon]

Utter hogwash.

Indeed.

 

[Josheb]

Indeed.

I am mildly frustrated by the chronic ignoring of what has already been posted, the senseless inquiry and demand for evidence already posted, and the abject denial of what is plainly stated in God's word. Anyone who searches the word "heaven" readily reads everything in the first twenty chapters of Revelation happens while Jesus is ruling from heaven. The entire vision is revealed from heaven where Jesus was and remains enthroned, ruling over both the heavens and the earth. Likewise, there are 79 mentions of the word, "earth" in Revelation and it is not until chapters 21 and 22 that any of them state Jesus is physically on the earth. From Revel 1:5 all the way through the last verse of Revelation 20 everything happening on earth is commanded from heaven (with the exception of the portion of Revelation that pertains to his incarnation).

Revelation 1:4-7
John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood — and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So, it is to be. Amen.

Jesus is in heaven. He is coming, but he is in heaven. He is not on earth.

Revelation 20:7-11
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

Those are the only times the word "earth" is mentioned in Rev. 20. The word appears only three times, and not one of them states Jesus is on earth. ALL THREE OF THEM OCCUR AFTER THE MILLENNIUM!!! The last mention explicitly states the earth flees from his throne! His throne is in heaven!

And @Musicmaster, if you're reading this then note I have not asserted any alternative eschatology. I did not mention preterism at all. I have not once asserted amillennialism, postmillennialism, idealism, or argued for any other eschatology. I have stuck to the op and simply and solely pointed out, evidenced, and thereby proven with scripture there are many problems with premillennialism (especially the Dispensational version).

The ludicrous nature of that silly claim is nothing more than eisegetical hermeneutics based upon some pre-conceived dogma of preterism or some other strange system of thought that requires massive amounts of injected elements of man-made interpretations and wishful thinking in order to foist that idea onto the text in the absence of even a hint at such a concept.

MM

Complete fabrication. Utter hogwash that has absolutely nothing to do with this op. In fact, I just searched the entire word for any mention of "preterism," and "preterist," and the only one bringing up that matter is you! In other words, that's a red herring. All that is asked of you is to prove the problems with premillennialism do not exist..... beginning with the fact 1) Jesus is reported to be in heaven during Revelation 19 and 20 and never stated to physically come to earth, physically live on the earth, and physically rule while physically living on the earth during the thousand years, and 2) the premillennial view of Jesus' physical millennial reign ends with rebellion. Jesus' rule fails. Several other problems have arisen, but those two problems are at the foundation of all the others. Try making your case without mentioning any other poster and start with explicit scripture.

That is all that is asked of you and every other premillennialist.

 

[Musicmaster]

You have got to stop the ad hominems.

It appears that your bent upon false accusation is going to continue being problematic. My simply pointing out that you are big on one idea over another as was made clear in your postings, that's not an attack upon your character, which is precisely what ad hominem means.

That you don't seem to desire recognizing the difference, it doesn't appear that you know or even care to glean the realization as to how inconsistent you've been in your interpretations, which means this will never be a productive discussion on this topic or any other until you're ready to handle discussions with honest assessments and refrain from lying about other's actual words.

MM

 

[Tambora]

Zecheriah is very clear on the fact that the Feet of Christ touch down upon the Mount of Olives,

Hello, Musicmaster,

I would like you to clarify how you see this happening.
Would you be so kind as to describe exactly how you see this happening in a strictly literal sense since the mount is said to split by a violent earthquake.
Does Jesus only tap the mount with His feet and then quickly fly back up above the destructive force?
Does Jesus get buried in the rubble and then crawls out of all the rubble unscathed?

When you visualize this happening literally, how do you see it playing out?

 

[Musicmaster]

Hello, Musicmaster,

I would like you to clarify how you see this happening.
Would you be so kind as to describe exactly how you see this happening in a strictly literal sense since the mount is said to split by a violent earthquake.
Does Jesus only tap the mount with His feet and then quickly fly back up above the destructive force?
Does Jesus get buried in the rubble and then crawls out of all the rubble unscathed?

When you visualize this happening literally, how do you see it playing out?

I'll quote the text since it speaks for itself, although not always with enough detail that some may wish to demand of the account.

Zechariah 14:3-4
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

I heard the other day that they have found a fault line in the middle of that mountain, with the fault running east and west through that mountain. I have not gone over there to check this out for myself, but it is indeed an interesting piece of information if it be true.

So, to try and visualize that event yet to come, and that it speaks in language that is not vague in any sense that I can see, He will indeed stand upon that mountain, and it splits in half, opening up a great valley in the middle. This describes a massive movement of the landscape under His feet.

For those who allegoricalize everything in prophecy, I cannot say for sure what their own imaginations may conjure up in order to force that narrative into conformity with their personal interpretations, and I do not know the full purpose behind His opening up that mountain into a valley. All I've ever dine with this so far to this point is to accept it for what it says.

Please explain the mystery you see in this, if any, because I don't understand the basis for your question. What CAN anyone visualize apart from what is said, without going to the comical, although sick extreme of a Monty Python movie showing Jesus being thrown off balance and thus falling headlong into its depths? I'm not saying you're one of those, but I've encountered some rather colorful characters through the years who tend toward what they see as humor.

MM

 

[Josheb]

It appears that your bent upon false accusation is going to continue being problematic. My simply pointing out that you are big on one idea over another as was made clear in your postings, that's not an attack upon your character, which is precisely what ad hominem means.

Any attack on the man is an ad hominem. Ad hominem is not limited to a man's character. Every time you say, "You are bent..." and "You don't seem to desire," that is ad hominem. I am not bent on anything, and the entire premise is a red herring that distracts everyone from holding you accountable to the fact you cannot provide one single verse explicitly stating Jesus is physically living on earth physically ruling for a literal thousand years. These ad hominems are not your only fallacies. You have also employed red herrings, straw men, false equivalences, false dichotomies, arguments from silence, and construction errors. I will gladly list them if you like....


But first please provide me with a verse that explicitly states Jesus is physically living on earth physically ruling for a literal thousand years.


And stop avoiding that question.

That you don't seem to desire recognizing the difference, it doesn't appear that you know or even care to glean the realization as to how inconsistent you've been in your interpretations, which means this will never be a productive discussion on this topic or any other until you're ready to handle discussions with honest assessments and refrain from lying about other's actual words.

MM

Can you provide a verse explicitly stating Jesus is physically on earth physically ruling for a literal thousand years or not? Zechariah 14:4 does not do that. It mentions Jesus standing on the Mount of Olives, but it says nothing about his living on earth for a thousand years. You were asked a very plain, simple, direct question and you've failed to answer it. Until you do so there is no scriptural basis for premillennialism, and it is you denying the scriptures and bent on criticizing others who disagree. There is only one place in the entire Bible that speaks of a reign of one thousand years. That statement is found in Revelation 20 and only in Revelation 20. Nowhere does that passage state Jesus is on earth. As I have already posted, the word "earth" is mentioned only three times in the entire chapter and all of them occur after the thousand-year reign and one of them explicitly states the earth flees from Christ's throne.


Revelation 20:1-8
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time. Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.

No mention of Jesus physically on the earth physically reigning for those thousand years. None. Check it out for yourself. Test the text right now. Hit Ctrl F and type in the word "earth," and see if anything in those eight verses states Jesus is physically on earth physically ruling for those thousand years. Do it now. Since it is self-evident the only mention of earth in that passage occurs "When the thousand years are completed....," YOU - not me - must provide evidence from some other place in scripture where it is explicitly stated Jesus is physically on earth ruling for a thousand years. Zechariah 14:4 does NOT do that and the appeal, "Zec 14 ever says he leaves," is the argument from silence. Revelation 19:11-15 does not answer that question, either. Both passages fail to answer the question asked and I have been very, very, very, very patient with you - giving you multiple opportunities to try again. You have wasted them all. Revelation does not have Jesus coming to the earth until chapter 21. Chapter 21 comes after the ordeal at the fiery lake (when all Christ's enemies are destroyed). Chapter 21 comes after the thousand years of chapter 20.


Now please either provide the verse or acknowledge there is none. Once you've posted the verse then we can discuss it. Likewise, once you've acknowledged there is no explicit verse we can then discuss that lack. In other words, the only one holding up this discussion is you. You are holding up the conversation by not answering the question and employing a plethora of fallacious responses in absence of an answer to the specific question asked. Until you provide such a verse you have no business saying anything about anyone because you cannot even substantiate the most foundational premise of premillennialism.


Where does scripture EXPLICITLY state Jesus will physically be living on earth physically ruling the earth?



There are only two possible answers: either post the verse explicitly stating Jesus is physically on earth ruling for those thousand years, or acknowledge there is no such verse. Stop wasting everyone's time avoiding the question.
.