A Preterist problem passage?

[Eleanor]

It is in this case.
Israel in this cases is
Blinded in part

The "blinded in part" is the part of Israel that has been cut off the tree, which is only part of Israel.
The true Israel is not blinded in any way.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The "blinded in part" is the part of Israel that has been cut off the tree, which is only part of Israel.
The true Israel is not blinded in any way.

So Paul lied?

Can you please look at the Bible passage a shared and walk me through it as I did you?

 

[atpollard]

Jacob is the 12 tribes of Isreal.

LITERALLY, Jacob was a man … the son of Isaac and twin brother to Esau.

In Malachi (and Romans quoting from Malachi), I also view the reference to Jacob as primarily speaking of the “nation” … although, I would go further and emphasize the PEOPLE descended from the patriarch Jacob (so it would include Hellenized Jews and Samaritans whose membership in the nation under foreign occupation might be less clear.)

Jacob according to Malichi 400 some years before Christ was beloved, while edom (esau) was hated.

Yup.

But Paul said all Israel will be saved when the time of the gentile is complete. So all is not all?

Paul appears to make a distinction between Jacob (the biological descendants) and Israel (the Spiritual people of God) and even uses Israel in different ways in different places (sometimes including Gentile Saints and sometimes reflecting Jewish Saints as distinct from Gentile Saints).

“All Israel is not Israel” - Paul.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

LITERALLY, Jacob was a man … the son of Isaac and twin brother to Esau.

In Malachi (and Romans quoting from Malachi), I also view the reference to Jacob as primarily speaking of the “nation” … although, I would go further and emphasize the PEOPLE descended from the patriarch Jacob (so it would include Hellenized Jews and Samaritans whose membership in the nation under foreign occupation might be less clear.

Agree. 100%. And also may include gentiles who were baptized into the promise
Like David’s grandmother

Yup.


Paul appears to make a distinction between Jacob (the biological descendants) and Israel (the Spiritual people of God) and even uses Israel in different ways in different places (sometimes including Gentile Saints and sometimes reflecting Jewish Saints as distinct from Gentile Saints).

Yes agree

“All Israel is not Israel” - Paul.

But in Roman’s 11 all isreal is isreal

Roman 9 And Roman’s 11 are two Different contexts. Speaking about totally different things

All isreal Is Not saved Roman’s 9. Nor are
The saved separate from isreal

In Roman’s 11. Isreal is the blinded in part they have a remnant they are natural brranches and they are enemies of the gospel. Different than Roman’s 9 completely

 

[atpollard]

But Paul said all Israel will be saved when the time of the gentile is complete. So all is not all?

Yeah … “all is not all” is a conversation that always seems to land me in trouble, so I tread that phrase carefully.

My “best guess” for eschatology (since we are talking about when ‘times are complete’) is …

ALL and WORLD (when speaking of soteriology) typically means “all without distinction, some from every tribe, tongue, people and nation” … just as we see in the end result in Romans 5 (singing a new song).

“Israel” is most commonly “the people of God” … all the people of God (without distinction).

As far as Gentiles and Jews turning to Christ (and when) … the best answer that I have is “as many as were appointed to believe” will be added to our number (and that is 99% out of my hands - I can just ‘gossip the gospel’ and trust God to grow seeds wherever He will).

So there ALWAYS seems to be a hardening and there ALWAYS seems to be Jewish hearts discovering ‘messiah’.

• There was before the crucifixion.
• There was in Acts 1-2.
• There are still Jews that shout against Jesus and Messianic Jews even today.

So the “hardening” and the “lifting of the veil” confuse me … cause the always seem to be concurrent.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yeah … “all is not all” is a conversation that always seems to land me in trouble, so I tread that phrase carefully.

You’re not in trouble just tryign to get clarification and not misread you and falsly accuse you.

My “best guess” for eschatology (since we are talking about when ‘times are complete’) is …

ALL and WORLD (when speaking of soteriology) typically means “all without distinction, some from every tribe, tongue, people and nation” … just as we see in the end result in Romans 5 (singing a new song).

“Israel” is most commonly “the people of God” … all the people of God (without distinction).

As far as Gentiles and Jews turning to Christ (and when) … the best answer that I have is “as many as were appointed to believe” will be added to our number (and that is 99% out of my hands - I can just ‘gossip the gospel’ and trust God to grow seeds wherever He will).

So there ALWAYS seems to be a hardening and there ALWAYS seems to be Jewish hearts discovering ‘messiah’.

• There was before the crucifixion.
• There was in Acts 1-2.
• There are still Jews that shout against Jesus and Messianic Jews even today.

So the “hardening” and the “lifting of the veil” confuse me … cause the always seem to be concurrent.

I agree here in prety much everything you say.

But n the context of romans 11. Again, All israel is all israel.

Paul calls them blinded in part (gentiles are not said to be blinded in part)
They are called natural branches, Gentiles are said to b e wild. Or un natural
Paul calls them enemies concerning the gospel. But believed concerning the election. This election I believe to be according to the abrahamic covenant, And I give you this land forever.. a national promise. Which had nothign to do with anyone salvation.

 

[prism]

They are still in sin (and still according to the law of moses (lev 26) dispersed. Because they are still in sin.

Yes unbelief runs deep.

 

[prism]

Jesus cried or wept over unbelieving Israel

Matt 23: 37: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Maybe those were just crocodile tears, knowing full well they were ordained to destruction? (tongue in cheek)

 

[prism]

V26 is not about a future as much as a desire/yearning by Paul. The Isaiah quote is read in the historic sense; it has taken place.

Romans 11:26 YLT
and so all Israel shall be saved, according as it hath been written, `There shall come forth out of Sion he who is delivering, and he shall turn away impiety from Jacob,

Those all sound future to me,

Compare to ...
Romans 9:2-3 YLT
that I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart -- [3] for I was wishing, I myself, to be anathema from the Christ -- for my brethren, my kindred, according to the flesh,

which sounds more like a desire/yearning.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Maybe those were just crocodile tears, knowing full well they were ordained to destruction?

ouch

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Romans 11:26 YLT
and so all Israel shall be saved, according as it hath been written, `There shall come forth out of Sion he who is delivering, and he shall turn away impiety from Jacob,

Those all sound future to me,

Compare to ...
Romans 9:2-3 YLT
that I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart -- [3] for I was wishing, I myself, to be anathema from the Christ -- for my brethren, my kindred, according to the flesh,

which sounds more like a desire/yearning.

yes,

romans 9 and 11 have to be seen different

 

[atpollard]

Romans 11:26 YLT
and so all Israel shall be saved, according as it hath been written, `There shall come forth out of Sion he who is delivering, and he shall turn away impiety from Jacob,

Those all sound future to me,

@EarlyActs seems to be pointing out (in the words "it hath been written") that Paul was directly quoting Isaiah. For Isaiah, it WAS FUTURE ... the deliverer would (at some future point) come out of 'Sion' (the Holy City of God) and would 'turn away impiety from Jacob' (the bioligical but not spiritual people). At the time Paul wrote Romans, that FUTURE EVENT for Isaiah had become a present reality ... Jesus HAD come out of Sion (see John 1:1) and the hearts of 'Jacob' was being turned away from impiety and towards God (see the Gospels and Acts 2).


Israel (the people of the PROMISE) shall all be saved out of Jacob (the people of the FLESH) ... but all of JACOB shall never be ISRAEL [Past, Present or Future].

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

@EarlyActs seems to be pointing out (in the words "it hath been written") that Paul was directly quoting Isaiah. For Isaiah, it WAS FUTURE ... the deliverer would (at some future point) come out of 'Sion' (the Holy City of God) and would 'turn away impiety from Jacob' (the bioligical but not spiritual people). At the time Paul wrote Romans, that FUTURE EVENT for Isaiah had become a present reality ... Jesus HAD come out of Sion (see John 1:1) and the hearts of 'Jacob' was being turned away from impiety and towards God (see the Gospels and Acts 2).

But ALL Israel had not yet been saved. I think this is the point they are trying to make.

Since also in romans 11 Paul also spoke of a future event, not an event going on at that time. which is also why he warned us..

Israel (the people of the PROMISE) shall all be saved out of Jacob (the people of the FLESH) ... but all of JACOB shall never be ISRAEL [Past, Present or Future].

Can you show this in scripture please

 

[EarlyActs]

Romans 11:26 YLT
and so all Israel shall be saved, according as it hath been written, `There shall come forth out of Sion he who is delivering, and he shall turn away impiety from Jacob,

Those all sound future to me,

Compare to ...
Romans 9:2-3 YLT
that I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart -- [3] for I was wishing, I myself, to be anathema from the Christ -- for my brethren, my kindred, according to the flesh,

which sounds more like a desire/yearning.

Who was the first to read it?

 

[prism]

@EarlyActs seems to be pointing out (in the words "it hath been written") that Paul was directly quoting Isaiah. For Isaiah, it WAS FUTURE ... the deliverer would (at some future point) come out of 'Sion' (the Holy City of God) and would 'turn away impiety from Jacob' (the bioligical but not spiritual people). At the time Paul wrote Romans, that FUTURE EVENT for Isaiah had become a present reality ... Jesus HAD come out of Sion (see John 1:1) and the hearts of 'Jacob' was being turned away from impiety and towards God (see the Gospels and Acts 2).


Israel (the people of the PROMISE) shall all be saved out of Jacob (the people of the FLESH) ... but all of JACOB shall never be ISRAEL [Past, Present or Future].

I wonder why Paul didn't indicate it's fulfillment as he did many other times, saying something like, ' as Isaiah has said elsewhere'?

 

[prism]

Who was the first to read it?

See #55

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

See #55

I am not sure what he meant by the question

 

[Eleanor]

So Paul lied?

I'm more inclined to think you misunderstand Paul than to think that he lied.

Can you please look at the Bible passage a shared and walk me through it as I did you?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that
blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26. ;And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

I assume Ro 11:25 is the passage to which you are referring.

1) blindness in part = blindness in part of Israel (not partial blindness), not all Israel is blind, the remnant has sight.

2) and so (thus; i.e., in the same manner). . ."The "manner" presented in Ro 11:4-5; i.e., through a remnant.
God's keeps his promises to Israel through a remnant.

3) all Israel will be saved = is all true Israel, the remnant who believe in the promise (Ge 15:5-6, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) who will be saved.

There is not, and never has been, salvation for any Israelite who did not believe in the promise of Ge 15:5.

 

[Josheb]

I wonder why Paul didn't indicate it's fulfillment as he did many other times, saying something like, ' as Isaiah has said elsewhere'?

Do you mean the fulfillment of the remnant coming to faith in Christ? The reason he did not indicate it his Romans epistle is because it hadn't yet happened by the time he wrote that epistle. He did, however, explicitly state it was a remnant preserved at the present time. That was his indication of when it would be fulfilled. Whoever those people were, they're long ago dead.

 

[atpollard]

But ALL Israel had not yet been saved. I think this is the point they are trying to make.

Since also in romans 11 Paul also spoke of a future event, not an event going on at that time. which is also why he warned us..

Can you show this in scripture please

I wonder why Paul didn't indicate it's fulfillment as he did many other times, saying something like, ' as Isaiah has said elsewhere'?

I was just stating what I understood the poster to be claiming. I am personally no fan of prophecy in general and eschatology in particular. However, i will give my best shot at answering based on personal dislike of the subject and limited study [I read it because it IS in the Bible and Paul claims it is all "God-breathed" and "useful".]

In reverse order, Paul indicated neither its fulfillment nor its future only nature because the redemption of ISRAEL (chosen people) out of JACOB (biological decedents) was an ongoing process that would continue into the future.

• Had some Jews accepted Jesus while he lived as a man? [YES]
• Did some Jews accept Jesus in Acts 2 [YES]
• Were these events both PAST EVENTS and FULFILLMENT of Isiah's prophecy when Paul wrote Romans? [YES]
• Were Jews still being saved both WHEN Paul wrote Romans and in the years immediately after? [YES]
• Was this both a PRESENT and FUTURE EVENT of Isiah's prophecy when Paul wrote Romans? [YES]
• Are Jews still being saved TODAY and do we expect this to continue? [YES]
• Is this a FUTURE EVENT of Isiah's prophecy when Paul wrote Romans? [YES]

So for Paul writing about BOTH the hardening of Jews (JACOB) and the redemption of Jacob back into ISRAEL (people of God), when did/does/will Isiah's prophesy take place? Had it already started? Was it currently unfolding? Would it reach ultimate fulfillment in the future?


Let me turn this around and ask a question of those that both CARE more and have STUDIED more than myself:
What more, exactly, do you expect God to do for Jacob (the biological decedents)?

• Will God rebuild the Temple? [For what purpose?]
• Will the GLORY dwell in the Temple again? [Why?]
• Will animals be slaughtered again? [serving what purpose?]
• Will Israel become a SUPERPOWER, ruled by a King with all Government Leaders paying Tribute? [How does that turn hearts to Jesus?]
• Will Jesus return JUST FOR ISRAEL (the Throne of David)? [Does that not contradict all the NT wrote about ONE BODY and NEITHER Greek nor Jew?]

I cannot see what restoring the old would accomplish except "spitting" on God's Church [The BODY of Christ] and negating everything Jesus accomplished on the Cross.