A Preterist problem passage?

[Josheb]

Zechariah 14.....

Read Post 18

 

[prism]

And you're getting further and further off topic because the eternal truth of God's word has absolutely nothing to do with preterism.

How about not doing that? How about you and I return to the specified topic of Romans 11:26 and you respond to the fact Paul explicitly stated the remnant was preserved at that present time? How about addressing the fact there's not a single word in the three-chapter narrative that specifically mentions anything two millennia later? How about you not change the subject?

I am sorry, but I came from forums where the OP had the prerogative to change topics. If a person didn't like it, they could move on. To continue to yammer about being off topic is 'off topic' in and of itself. Being off-topic seems to be a pet-peeve of yours as I notice you bring it up often.
Some of us might have ADD, does that mean we cannot participate in this forum?
(sorry for going off topic again)

 

[Josheb]

I am sorry, but I came from forums where the OP had the prerogative to change topics.

Irrelevant. It's not okay to ask a question and then ignore the answers. That is the antithesis of discussion. Regardless of what other forums permit, this particular forum's rules explicitly state,

4.3. Stay on topic and avoid derailing or hijacking the thread. When engaging in a discussion, keep responses relevant to the original post. Do not divert the conversation to unrelated matters, introduce personal grievances, or use the thread as an opportunity to push an unrelated agenda. Engaging in discussions with the intent to stir up controversy, bait others into arguments, or introduce unrelated topics just disrupts meaningful dialogue. Stay on topic and contribute in a way that adds value to the conversation, not detracts from it. If you have a different subject to discuss, start a new thread in the appropriate forum rather than disrupting an existing one.​

1. Stay on topic.
2. Don't derail the thread (not even if you started the thread).
3. Don't divert to unrelated matters.
4. Don't push an unrelated agenda.
5. Stay on topic.
6. Contribute in a way that adds value to the discussion..... of the original post.
7. Start a new thread for different subjects.

It would be much easier and much more appropriate to simply stick to the op and discuss Romans 11:26.

To continue to yammer....

.....is something you should stop doing and get back to discussing Romans 11:26. I'll even help by providing additional responses to the op in the next post .

 

[Josheb]

.

I'm assuming preterists believe all prophecies have been fulfilled by 70AD (except perhaps full preterists—Christ's 2nd Coming).

Do you mean, "I'm assuming all partial-preterists believe all prophecies except Christ's 2nd Coming have been fulfilled?" If so, that two is incorrect.

Romans 11:26 KJV
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Has all Israel been saved?

That depends on what you mean asking that question. From God's position in eternity everyone who will ever be saved is already saved. From within creation's timeline people continue to get saved from sin and wrath every day so, no, all Israel has nt been saved but the correct answer to that question also depends on having a correct definition of "Israel," because Paul explicitly states all Israel is not Israel. Logically speaking, we would not expect the Israel that is not Israel to be saved. We might, therefore, answer the question asked, "Has all Israel been saved?" by saying, "Yes, all the Israel that is Israel, including the remnant that God had preserved in the first century when Paul wrote the Romans epistle has been saved BUT that does not mean all of Israel living in this century have been saved. Furthermore, None of the Israel that is not Israel who are living in this century will be saved any more than the non-Israel Israel of any century were saved.

For the Full Preterist...has the Deliverer come out of Sion

You'll have to ask a full-preterist.

for both, has ungodliness been turned from Jacob?

Yes, of course. It happened during the present time when Paul wrote that epistle, but that has nothing to do with preterism. Paul answers that question just a few verses later.

Romans 11:28-32
This is My covenant with them when I take away their sins. From the standpoint of the gospel, they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.


Sins were taken away in Jesus and he is God's righteousness (the ungodliness of Jacob turned away).

 

[prism]

Irrelevant. It's not okay to ask a question and then ignore the answers.

Right about the rules but you are assuming I ignore the answers..

 

[prism]

To my question "has ungodliness been turned from Jacob?"
you replied...

Yes, of course. It happened during the present time when Paul wrote that epistle, but that has nothing to do with preterism. Paul answers that question just a few verses later.

Romans 11:28-32
This is My covenant with them when I take away their sins. From the standpoint of the gospel, they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Personally, I see that as a non-answer. How can their sins be taken away while they were rejecting Jesus Christ? Or did the 'elect Jews come to faith in 70AD?

Romans 11:30-32 KJV
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: [31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. [32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
It has everything to do with preterism and verb tenses.

 

[Josheb]

Right about the rules but you are assuming I ignore the answers..

To my question "has ungodliness been turned from Jacob?"
you replied...

Personally, I see that as a non-answer. How can their sins be taken away while they were rejecting Jesus Christ? Or did the 'elect Jews come to faith in 70AD?

Romans 11:30-32 KJV
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: [31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. [32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
It has everything to do with preterism and verb tenses.

If disbedience has been stopped, as the text stipulates, then unrighteousness has been turned. The problem with the question is that it removes a portion of one verse from its surrounding text, ignoring how the text itself answers that question.

Let me know when you're reading to discuss Romans 11:26 and address the points I have broached, beginning with the fact the text explicitly states the remnant God had preserved was one preserved at the present time, not the far distant future.

 

[prism]

Let me know when you're reading to discuss Romans 11:26 and address the points I have broached, beginning with the fact the text explicitly states the remnant God had preserved was one preserved at the present time, not the far distant future.

Romans 11:26 KJV
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Taken with a bit of context...

Romans 11:32 KJV
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Looking at verse 32 it seems that Paul is referring to those unbelieving Jews at that time, but God will in the future have mercy them. Verse 26 indicates there is a future time when Jews who are then rejecting Christ will come to faith when the deliver comes out of Zion.
Was there a revival amongst the Jews in 70 A.D.? Or did they continue to earn the moniker of Christ killers?

 

[EarlyActs]

I'm assuming preterists believe all prophecies have been fulfilled by 70AD (except perhaps full preterists—Christ's 2nd Coming).

Romans 11:26 KJV
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Has all Israel been saved?

For the Full Preterist...has the Deliverer come out of Sion

for both, has ungodliness been turned from Jacob?

1, a key part of v26 is the connector usually translated 'and so.' 'In this way' (referring to the above olive tree and the 'in part' factor) is a better understanding. (Grk: kai houtos) The apostles did not think in terms of tight exact chronology like we do in the age of NASA operations. He was yearning for as many countrymen to become believers and evangelists as possible, but it was always going to just part of the race-nation, as we know from ch 2 and 9:6.

2, the verb about ungodliness being taken away is the same that John B used over and over about the Lamb about sin. It's about justification. This has come about to all who believe on it. There isn't a perfect absence of sin, but there is a substantial new belief compared to the old covenant, the 'reminder of sins.' And the new Israel subscribes to the Gospel, not to the old covenant.

 

[EarlyActs]

Romans 11:26 KJV
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Taken with a bit of context...

Romans 11:32 KJV
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Looking at verse 32 it seems that Paul is referring to those unbelieving Jews at that time, but God will in the future have mercy them. Verse 26 indicates there is a future time when Jews who are then rejecting Christ will come to faith when the deliver comes out of Zion.
Was there a revival amongst the Jews in 70 A.D.? Or did they continue to earn the moniker of Christ killers?

Notice that both verbs in v32 are concluded action. God has leveled everything about humanity; all in unbelief and all might gain mercy through Christ.

V26 is not about a future as much as a desire/yearning by Paul. The Isaiah quote is read in the historic sense; it has taken place.

The issue of the 1st century for Judaism was not the on-the-nose accusation of being Christ killers but whether they would become missionaries for Christ. The alternative that rejected this were the zealots, and the only direction that could go was the hopeless revolt (they had the mistaken hope of God's messianic intervention to break Rome). All these events were already summarized by Dan 9, if a person handles the antecedents carefully.

 

[Josheb]

Romans 11:26 KJV
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Taken with a bit of context...

Romans 11:32 KJV
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Yes, God would have mercy on all the Israel that is Israel (but not the Israel that is not Israel)...... and all of it was couched in the present time, not the far, far distant future thousands of years later.

Looking at verse 32....

How about we look at the entire three-chapter narrative as a whole and not select individual verses and remove them from their entirety?

it seems that Paul is referring to those unbelieving Jews at that time,

Are you sure?

How about you call up Romans chapter 11 from whatever eBible you prefer and do a quick word search for the word "Jew." Do the same for chapter's 9 and 10. After that's been done, get back to me and tell me how many times the word "Jew" is found specifically in Romans 11, and how many times "Jews" is found in all three chapters total.

but God will in the future have mercy them. Verse 26 indicates there is a future time when Jews who are then rejecting Christ will come to faith when the deliver comes out of Zion.

No, it does not indicate any such thing. The only the only future even remotely alluded to is Paul's future, his original readers' future - not ours. Do a word search for the word "future," and tell me how many times you find that word mentioned in those three chapters.

Was there a revival amongst the Jews in 70 A.D.? Or did they continue to earn the moniker of Christ killers?

There was a revival of Jews from the day Jesus resurrected all through the decades leading up to the Jewish War and the gospel continued to spread all over the world converting both Jew and Gentile alike, regardless of their prior religious affiliation because there are no Jews or Gentiles in Christ.

Was there a revival amongst the Jews in 70 A.D.? Or did they continue to earn the moniker of Christ killers?

Where do you find 70 AD mentioned in Romans 9-11?

 

[Josheb]

Romans 11:26 KJV
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Taken with a bit of context...

Romans 11:32 KJV
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Looking at verse 32 it seems that Paul is referring to those unbelieving Jews at that time, but God will in the future have mercy them. Verse 26 indicates there is a future time when Jews who are then rejecting Christ will come to faith when the deliver comes out of Zion.
Was there a revival amongst the Jews in 70 A.D.? Or did they continue to earn the moniker of Christ killers?

Let me try addressing this post from another direction. Verse 26 states the deliverer will come out of Zion and put an end to ungodliness. The deliver had already come when by the time Paul wrote this epistle. Paul's point quoting Isaiah is to inform his readers that prophecy has been fulfilled. Here's what Isaiah said,

Isaiah 59:20
"A Redeemer will come to Zion, and to those who turn from transgression in Jacob," declares the LORD.

Note God said the deliverer/redeemer would come only to those who turn from their transgression. Isaiah did NOT say all of Jacob would be turned away from ungodliness. You want a bit of context, but the context is Isaiah, not verse 32. You want to render verse 26 by way of verse 32 but that part about, "He might have mercy on them all," is couched in 1) those who turn from their transgressions and 2) the "at the present time" of verse 5. There is absolutely nothing about all of Israel coming to salvation in Christ thousands of years after Paul wrote to the saints in Rome.

Looking at verse 32 it seems that Paul is referring to those unbelieving Jews at that time, but God will in the future have mercy them.

Yes, but that is Paul's future, not ours. At that present time God had reserved a remnant. God had kept Jews from worshiping Baal (and, by implication, any other idol). He'd preserved them. They were His remnant. They were preserved by grace, by God's choice and not by their works. Paul continues on to say those God had chosen obtained what Israel was looking for. The rest? God hardened their hearts. He gave them "a spirit of stupor" and it endured even to the day Paul's readers first read the Roman epistle. In other words, Paul is tying the unbelieving Jews of his day all the way back to Isaiah 6:9..... exactly as Jesus did in all four gospels!

Paul then explains how their transgression paved the way for the Gentiles to come to salvation. Paul explicitly states some of the branches were broken off to make room for the Gentiles. In other words, they did not leave the tree of their own accord. They were broken off by God. Paul leaves open to the possibility "they" might be grafted in again but the "they" is the kinsmen of his day, not Jews living thousands of years later. All the future implications are for Paul's original readers' future, not the future of the 21st century reader.

Verse 26 indicates there is a future time when Jews who are then rejecting Christ will come to faith when the deliver comes out of Zion.

Yes, and that future is Paul and his original readers' future, not thousands of years later.

Was there a revival amongst the Jews in 70 A.D.? Or did they continue to earn the moniker of Christ killers?

Irrelevant. That question begs a post hoc answer, and sound exegesis does not practice post hoc fallacy. Just stick to the text. The deliverance of Jacob, their turning away from unrighteousness is predicated up the deliverer coming from Zion (not heaven), their turning away from transgression (which is done by God, not the sinner's Law-abiding flesh), the remnant God had already preserved in the first century before Paul wrote to the saints, in Rome and Paul concludes with,

Romans 11:28-29
From the standpoint of the gospel, they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

The "they" is those living during Paul's day, not people who hadn't yet been born.


None of this prevents God from preserving a remnant in the second century, the third century, the thirtieth century, the 300th century, or the 3,000th century. It does, however, mean God was talking only about a remnant He had preserved in the first century, when Paul wrote his letter to the saints in Rome. We do not need 70 AD (or anything extra-biblical or post-canonical to read and understand what has been stated in Romans 9-11.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Not all Israel is Israel.
Does Israel mean Israel in name or true Israel?

In context of romans 11

Isreal consist of the remnant jews and the jews who are blinded in art

They are the natural branches

As apposed to the saved gentile who are not blinded in part. Or part of the remnant, and are called unnatural branches.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

My point was..."There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

Has the Redeemer come out of Zion, turning away ungodliness from Jacob"?

We can look at israel today

They are still in sin (and still according to the law of moses (lev 26) dispersed. Because they are still in sin.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It wasn’t spiritualized.

If we literalize it … Jacob died a thousand years before Christ was born (too late for him to turn).

Jacob is the 12 tribes of Isreal.

Jacob according to Malichi 400 some years before Christ was beloved, while edom (esau) was hated.

Therefore, “Jacob” is probably the nation. Reading the gospels, the nation turned to Jesus (and back towards God) in droves. Masses went to John the Baptist and thousands added at Pentecost … how many before you will accept that the nation (Jacob) was delivered?

If you are expecting 100% to be saved, you have misunderstood the wide and narrow roads.

But Paul said all Israel will be saved when the time of the gentile is complete. So all is not all?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes, Deut 29:15- came to pass, but as Rom 11:11b indicates her fall was temporary. (παραρρέω 2aor. pass. subjunctive παραρυῶ; ( slip from, off, away; metaphorically in the NT of being like a ship drifting without anchorage drift away from, gradually neglect (HE 2.1). (Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament)

Romans 11:11 KJV
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

I doubt God laughed at their calamity, in light of...
Ezekiel 33:11 KJV
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Apparently, that is still to come, or are you trying to say the church is Jacob? If that was the case, why is Paul comparing the unbelieving Jews with the Gentiles in Romans 11?

Jesus cried or wept over unbelieving Israel

Matt 23: 37: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

 

[Eleanor]

In context of romans 11

Isreal consist of the remnant jews and the jews who are blinded in art

Israel has received "a blinding in part". . ."part" is part of Israel, not a part blinding. . .the blinding is total, a spirit of stupor, with
eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear (Ro 11:8).

Only believing true Israel is saved, the blinded in part are not true Israel.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Israel has received "a blinding in part". . ."part" is part of Israel, not a part blinding. . .the blinding is total, a spirit of stupor, with
eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear (Ro 11:8).

Only believing true Israel is saved, the blinded in part are not true Israel.

Your right.

On that Day All israel will be saved. They all will repent and be saved.

Which is exactly what the OT prophets tell us will happen..

No unbeliever will ever be saved. In any time period

 

[Eleanor]

Your right.

On that Day All israel will be saved. They all will repent and be saved.

"And thus/so (Gr: houtos--"in that manner")---previously presented in Ro 11:5, though a remnant, all (true) Israel will be saved (Ro 11:26).

All true Israel will be saved. . .not all Israel is true Israel.

In the NT, Israel is on the same footing as the Gentiles, salvation is only of a remnant (Ro 11:5).

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

All true Israel will be saved. . .not all Israel is Israel.

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26. ;And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27. For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 ;Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they arebeloved for the sake of the fathers

1. Paul is talking to Gentile believers in rome
2. Paul is warning them not to be wise in their own opinion
3. Paul said they are blinded in part (this refers to national israel. Or the natural branches. Not the gentile or unnatural branch
4. They are currently enemies of the gospel
5. They will recieve Christ when the fullness time of the gentile is completed.