A Preterist problem passage?

[Eternally-Grateful]

So Satan did not serve God in the book of Job? OK. Agree to disagree.

Your speaking of one event.

we are talking about all events.

Did God cause Adam to chose his wife over God?

 

[atpollard]

Your speaking of one event.

we are talking about all events.

Edited it for you ...

So Satan did not serve God's plan in the book of Job?
Joseph's brothers did not serve God's plan in selling him into slavery?
Pilate did not serve God's plan in crucifying Christ?

OK. Agree to disagree.

Did God cause Adam to chose his wife over God?

Was 'Jesus as Savior' God's plan "before the foundation of the world" or just a quick 'plan B' Bandaid after God's original plan went off the rails?
No, God did not cause it ... but it served God's plan.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Edited it for you ...

So Satan did not serve God's plan in the book of Job?
Joseph's brothers did not serve God's plan in selling him into slavery?
Pilate did not serve God's plan in crucifying Christ?

OK. Agree to disagree.

So Hitler did Gods plan?
Adam did Gods plan?

God uses our free will to get things done. to fulfill his plan in many cases amen.

But God is not the cause of evil.. This is the issue I strugggle with. we technically all should struggle with this

Was 'Jesus as Savior' God's plan "before the foundation of the world" or just a quick 'plan B' Bandaid after God's original plan went off the rails?

Actually God knew man would fail. But chose to creaet him anyway.. and had a plan to restore them to himself. did he not?

No, God did not cause it ... but it served God's plan.

Then God caused it.. I see no other way to see this..

God either worked through a persons free will. Allowed a person to sin..

or God caused all evil in this world.. including the fall of man

 

[EarlyActs]

Is that what 1st Century history taught you? I see we have difficulty coming up with the original biblical manuscripts, I believe all that you know of 1st century history is hearsay

Luke 23:28 to answer many of your questions.

The bibliography in my book is some 5 pages, if you would like to start working on it.

 

[EarlyActs]

well then we have no basis to even discuss.

If revelation is just a poem of riddles and parables that will never come true. then there is no reason or hope that God will say enough is enough. and he is going to wipe out evil like he said he would.

remember, John was told. these things I will show you will come to pass.. John tried to explain in his language what he was seeing.

what nations serve God today? What nations has Satan not deceived Today?

The deception would be to disregard what Acts 2-4 is actually saying about His enthronement. The kingdom is an imperative kingdom; what is supposed to be. Satan will keep deceiving the elites and the nations, won't he? But what is in Acts 2-4 is what is supposed to be, the honor that is supposed to be due the Son.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The deception would be to disregard what Acts 2-4 is actually saying about His enthronement. The kingdom is an imperative kingdom; what is supposed to be. Satan will keep deceiving the elites and the nations, won't he? But what is in Acts 2-4 is what is supposed to be, the honor that is supposed to be due the Son.

Acts 2 - 4 speaks about the expanding church age.

It is not speaking about the future reign of Christ, where Christ fulfills the prophecies he did not fulfill in his first coming

We have to separate the two or we run into many problems

 

[prism]

well we do have the NT which gives us most of the 1st century

This part, I don’t understand, we have sketchy information about the first century, we don’t even have the original biblical manuscripts and yet many people pose as experts on first century history.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

This part, I don’t understand, we have sketchy information about the first century, we don’t even have the original biblical manuscripts and yet many people post experts on first century history.

The bible itself says it is inspired.

While we have a flawed book (english language is a flawed language) its message is good. that God word will not return void.

also remember, in the 3rd century the roman army took over the church with Ceasar.. And any history which would have went against their new theology was burned. and people jailed or killed as heretics.

The rulers rule history and write it.

Imagine if Hilter won WW2. the history books would nto be as we learned. they would have supported Hitler. Not America and England.

 

[prism]

Luke 23:28 to answer many of your questions.

The bibliography in my book is some 5 pages, if you would like to start working on it.

Luke 23:38 NASB
Now there was also an inscription above Him, “THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”
It answers many of my questions?

 

[atpollard]

Then God caused it.. I see no other way to see this..

Reread the story of Joseph and his brothers. God did not CAUSE their hatred, but God limited their available options (he restrained them from killing Joseph), God arranged circumstances to advance His agenda (Slavers 'just happened along' and 'just happened' to be heading to Egypt), Joseph just 'happened' to both meet and find favor with the Court Officials and Head of the Jail that Joseph would need to be trained for the task that God had "prepared in advance that Joseph should walk in" [Eph 2:10] ...

Then see Joseph's ultimate conclusion in Genesis 50:20 "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive."

That is the core of COMPATIBALISM ... people do whatsoever we WILL and it falls into perfect place according to GOD'S PLAN.

 

[atpollard]

Romans 1:18-32 [NKJV]

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown [it] to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. ​

​

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. ​

​

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. ​

​

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; [they are] whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.​

This speaks of God "lifting restraint" ("gave them up"), which implies that God had a prior restraint (of evil) to lift.
It never speaks of God COMPELS them to do evil.

 

[EarlyActs]

Acts 2 - 4 speaks about the expanding church age.

It is not speaking about the future reign of Christ, where Christ fulfills the prophecies he did not fulfill in his first coming

We have to separate the two or we run into many problems

You're right! It's not speaking about a future reign because the reign has begun. Why would he speak of the future! The vision, the hope, the burning passion was that Israel would lead in evangelism and the whole earth believe, or mostly!

2:30 is about His enthronement and it is exactly what David saw happening: he saw the resurrection as the enthronement. That is why Rom 1, Eph 1, Phil 2 and Heb 1 say the same thing: the resurrection was God making Jesus Lord and Christ.

This is why there is no expectation of a reign on this earth as such, but rather on the NHNE. As you can see at the end of the Rev, he never reigns on this earth; it is destroyed and (maybe) renewed as the NHNE.

 

[EarlyActs]

Luke 23:38 NASB
Now there was also an inscription above Him, “THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”
It answers many of my questions?

V28+. The babies born at that time would see the utter destruction of the country and wish they had never been born. As a bonus, he quotes the same Amos line that is in the Rev about asking the mountains to cover them, to show how quickly these things were fulfilled. It is obviously a timestamp that cannot be tampered with.

 

[atpollard]

V28+. The babies born at that time would see the utter destruction of the country and wish they had never been born. As a bonus, he quotes the same Amos line that is in the Rev about asking the mountains to cover them, to show how quickly these things were fulfilled. It is obviously a timestamp that cannot be tampered with.

Isn't it more of a TYPOLOGY?
[PS. I think it was Hosea 10:8 [NIV] The high places of wickedness will be destroyed--it is the sin of Israel. Thorns and thistles will grow up and cover their altars. Then they will say to the mountains, "Cover us!" and to the hills, "Fall on us!"]

It seems to be saying that just like Hosea warned Israel and Babylon came and destroyed them [God's punishment for a nation of sin], so I [Jesus] am warning this generation that (Rome) will come and do the exact same thing [in AD 70] for the same reason! A final warning to "turn to God and worship ME correctly, or be destroyed with the city and empty altars!"

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Reread the story of Joseph and his brothers. God did not CAUSE their hatred, but God limited their available options (he restrained them from killing Joseph), God arranged circumstances to advance His agenda (Slavers 'just happened along' and 'just happened' to be heading to Egypt), Joseph just 'happened' to both meet and find favor with the Court Officials and Head of the Jail that Joseph would need to be trained for the task that God had "prepared in advance that Joseph should walk in" [Eph 2:10] ...

Then see Joseph's ultimate conclusion in Genesis 50:20 "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive."

That is the core of COMPATIBALISM ... people do whatsoever we WILL and it falls into perfect place according to GOD'S PLAN.

what this has to do with Adam, Or Hitler. Or other evil men on this earth.

Again, This’d reminds me of Jonah. Gd limited him, and in effect blocked his path so he had to make a choice. Die in the fish or go to ninevah

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Romans 1:18-32 [NKJV]

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown [it] to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. ​

​

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. ​

​

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. ​

​

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; [they are] whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.​

This speaks of God "lifting restraint" ("gave them up"), which implies that God had a prior restraint (of evil) to lift.
It never speaks of God COMPELS them to do evil.

Yes,

God allowed them to do what they wanted to do. He did not stop them

Any the same time, They hid God in their hearts. Hence they have no excuse

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You're right! It's not speaking about a future reign because the reign has begun.

No it has not. Matt 24 has not been fulfilled yet

Why would he speak of the future! The vision, the hope, the burning passion was that Israel would lead in evangelism and the whole earth believe, or mostly!

Because the Bible tells me things will happen. That have not happened yet.

2:30 is about His enthronement and it is exactly what David saw happening: he saw the resurrection as the enthronement. That is why Rom 1, Eph 1, Phil 2 and Heb 1 say the same thing: the resurrection was God making Jesus Lord and Christ.

This is why there is no expectation of a reign on this earth as such, but rather on the NHNE. As you can see at the end of the Rev, he never reigns on this earth; it is destroyed and (maybe) renewed as the NHNE.

There is an expectation. Even the disciples saw it.

When will you return

Jesus said it is not for them to know..

 

[atpollard]

what this has to do with Adam, Or Hitler. Or other evil men on this earth.

All men are evil. Joseph was arrogant and God corrected his "hubris". His brothers were full of hate and deceit (God limited their actions and used what God allowed to advance God's bigger plan).

Satan is evil, and God limited the actions permitted by Satan against Job to advance God's plan.

Adam demonstrated his evil by choosing to sin rather than obey and "doubling down" on his sin by then blaming God for giving him the woman. God allowed the sin and used it to advance God's bigger plan to incarnate and be our savior.

What does Hitler or any evil man on earth have that sets them above the examples of ADAM and SATAN and JOSEPH & BROTHERS that they are just SO EVIL that God cannot control them or use their actions to advance God's bigger Plan?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

All men are evil. Joseph was arrogant and God corrected his "hubris". His brothers were full of hate and deceit (God limited their actions and used what God allowed to advance God's bigger plan).

Satan is evil, and God limited the actions permitted by Satan against Job to advance God's plan.

Adam demonstrated his evil by choosing to sin rather than obey and "doubling down"

Thank you. God did not cause it Adam chose

on his sin by then blaming God for giving him the woman.

yes typical human, blame shift..lol

God allowed the sin and used it to advance God's bigger plan to incarnate and be our savior.

What gives God more credit
1. Evil men and women who are not even given the ability to be saved
2. God gave freedom to choose. Knowing we would chose against him, So he died for those he created. And those who recieve him will be saved inspite of their evil. And those who did not get saved had no one to blame for themselves because God offered the salvation, They rejected it?

What does Hitler or any evil man on earth have that sets them above the examples of ADAM and SATAN and JOSEPH & BROTHERS that they are just SO EVIL that God cannot control them or use their actions to advance God's bigger Plan?

Because if God caused the fall of mankind, and Hiter (I use him because he is a modern day example )

Then God has some serious explaining to do.. And will for all eternity. How could we trust him?

 

[atpollard]

What gives God more credit
1. Evil men and women who are not even given the ability to be saved
2. God gave freedom to choose. Knowing we would chose against him, So he died for those he created. And those who recieve him will be saved inspite of their evil. And those who did not get saved had no one to blame for themselves because God offered the salvation, They rejected it?

I have been thinking about this and I think the question may be unanswerable.

Here is the flaw: God is OTHER ... He is not like us, His ways are not like us and His thoughts are not like our thoughts. Imagine being a Nobel Prize Physicist and attempting to explain Quantum Entanglement to a 5 year old. You could use some analogies and explain some of the ideas, but the full depth would just be beyond the mental ability of a 5-year old brain to grasp.

So, too, when we attempt to understand emotional or value judgements about GOD ... WHY does God do ... WHAT does God think ... ultimately, our answers must be HUMAN thoughts about Human EMOTIONS and Human VALUES. We are as incapable of comprehending the THOUGHTS and WAYS of God as a 5-year-old is of comprehending advanced physics.

So our answers MUST be incorrect. We cannot possible wrap a human brain around what TRULY brings GOD GLORY. We cannot even comprehend the fullness of what God's Glory really is.

So I can give you a HUMAN answer, but not a GOD answer to your question. The GOD answer is unknowable.
The best we can say is "Whatever God says brings Him glory is what brings God glory."