A Preterist problem passage?

[atpollard]

... but all of JACOB shall never be ISRAEL [Past, Present or Future].

Can you show this in scripture please

It is sort of "self evident", but probably required clarification.

JACOB is the biological decedents of Jacob.
ISRAEL is the name God gave ... it is the People that belong to (and follow) God. Paul makes it clear that all of JACOB is not ISRAEL.

[OT] Moses led JACOB out of Egypt. Joshua and Caleb followed God [ISRAEL] and ultimately entered the Promised Land. The rest disobeyed (JACOB not ISRAEL) died in the wilderness.

• all of JACOB was not ISRAEL [PAST]

[NT] Acts 2, the Holy Spirit is poured out on 200 and THOUSANDS of Jews (JACOB) witness the miracle. Some mock and accuse them of being drunk (HARDENED JACOB) and may are "pierced to the heart" by the words of Peter and repent and are baptized [ISRAEL].

• all of JACOB was not ISRAEL [PRESENT to Paul's writing]

[TODAY] We live in a world of Jewish mocking Christianity and emphatic rejection of Jesus as the Messiah because Messiah will be a Military Leader (JACOB) and, yet, Messianic Judaism is exploding in numbers [ISRAEL]. There is nothing to indicate that this will not continue until Jesus returns.

• all of JACOB is not ISRAEL [FUTURE to Paul's writing]

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I was just stating what I understood the poster to be claiming. I am personally no fan of prophecy in general and eschatology in particular. However, i will give my best shot at answering based on personal dislike of the subject and limited study [I read it because it IS in the Bible and Paul claims it is all "God-breathed" and "useful".]

In reverse order, Paul indicated neither its fulfillment nor its future only nature because the redemption of ISRAEL (chosen people) out of JACOB (biological decedents) was an ongoing process that would continue into the future.

• Had some Jews accepted Jesus while he lived as a man? [YES]
• Did some Jews accept Jesus in Acts 2 [YES]
• Were these events both PAST EVENTS and FULFILLMENT of Isiah's prophecy when Paul wrote Romans? [YES]
• Were Jews still being saved both WHEN Paul wrote Romans and in the years immediately after? [YES]
• Was this both a PRESENT and FUTURE EVENT of Isiah's prophecy when Paul wrote Romans? [YES]
• Are Jews still being saved TODAY and do we expect this to continue? [YES]
• Is this a FUTURE EVENT of Isiah's prophecy when Paul wrote Romans? [YES]

So for Paul writing about BOTH the hardening of Jews (JACOB) and the redemption of Jacob back into ISRAEL (people of God), when did/does/will Isiah's prophesy take place? Had it already started? Was it currently unfolding? Would it reach ultimate fulfillment in the future?

what we see is the continuation of what God said in the OT when the prophet was worried that he lost the nation. God told him not to fear. Not all have bowed to baal. He has kept a remnant.

This is still the same words Paul used. a remnant according to grace. of Israel

Let me turn this around and ask a question of those that both CARE more and have STUDIED more than myself:
What more, exactly, do you expect God to do for Jacob (the biological decedents)?

• Will God rebuild the Temple? [For what purpose?]

A temple will be rebuilt. But not By God

• Will the GLORY dwell in the Temple again? [Why?]

Jesus will rule from that temple. Is he the glory of God.

if your talking about the holy place and Gods presence. God had not been present in the HS for centuries. I am not sure he ever did after babylon and the new temple. because Israel was still in sin

• Will animals be slaughtered again? [serving what purpose?]

It appears. for what purpose> it was never to forgive sin, it was always as a symbol.. I learn do not question God..

• Will Israel become a SUPERPOWER, ruled by a King with all Government Leaders paying Tribute? [How does that turn hearts to Jesus?]

Israel and gentiles nations will live in peace.. There will be no superpower.

• Will Jesus return JUST FOR ISRAEL (the Throne of David)? [Does that not contradict all the NT wrote about ONE BODY and NEITHER Greek nor Jew?]

No. he returns to all who endure to the end, jew and gentile.. whoever is saved when he returns

I cannot see what restoring the old would accomplish except "spitting" on God's Church [The BODY of Christ] and negating everything Jesus accomplished on the Cross.

God uses prophecy for a reason. In this case. it is for those who witness those things.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It is sort of "self evident", but probably required clarification.

JACOB is the biological decedents of Jacob.
ISRAEL is the name God gave ... it is the People that belong to (and follow) God. Paul makes it clear that all of JACOB is not ISRAEL.

Actually Jacob and Israel are interchangable

[OT] Moses led JACOB out of Egypt. Joshua and Caleb followed God [ISRAEL] and ultimately entered the Promised Land. The rest disobeyed (JACOB not ISRAEL) died in the wilderness.

• all of JACOB was not ISRAEL [PAST]

[NT] Acts 2, the Holy Spirit is poured out on 200 and THOUSANDS of Jews (JACOB) witness the miracle. Some mock and accuse them of being drunk (HARDENED JACOB) and may are "pierced to the heart" by the words of Peter and repent and are baptized [ISRAEL].

• all of JACOB was not ISRAEL [PRESENT to Paul's writing]

[TODAY] We live in a world of Jewish mocking Christianity and emphatic rejection of Jesus as the Messiah because Messiah will be a Military Leader (JACOB) and, yet, Messianic Judaism is exploding in numbers [ISRAEL]. There is nothing to indicate that this will not continue until Jesus returns.

• all of JACOB is not ISRAEL [FUTURE to Paul's writing]

Again, Jacob is national Israel.

in romans 11 God separates believing jews (the remnant) from believing gentiles. and calls these believing jews (the remnant) with the non believing jews (the blind in part) that make the whole

romans 11:
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your ow opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

who is Jacob

1. Blind in part (vs 25)
2. They will remain this way until the fullness of the gentile is complete (vs 25)
3. When this time happens. All Israel will repent. and be saved. this happens at the return of Christ, who we are told will plant his feet on Mt Zion
4. Gods covenant is with THEM (national Israel) not us, Saved gentiles (vs 27)
5. They (jacob or nation israel) are my enemy, because they reject the gospel as a nation) (vs 28)
6, They (jacob or national israel) are to be loved concerning the promises to the fathers (vs 28)
7. For the gifts and calling of God are irrevokable (vs 29)

God have us a gift, and made a promise, he will never leave nor forsake us, we are his forever. (salvation)

God made a promise to their father back in Gen 12, 15 and 17. And he called that an eternal promise.

If God does not keep his promise for them, nothing can assure us he will not take his promise away from us also.

 

[Josheb]

It is sort of "self evident", but probably required clarification.

JACOB is the biological decedents of Jacob.
ISRAEL is the name God gave ... it is the People that belong to (and follow) God. Paul makes it clear that all of JACOB is not ISRAEL.

AND..... it is all much, much clearer when the Hebrew meaning is considered. Although commonly understood as meaning "wrestles with God," the name "Israel" transliterally means "God fights" or "God perseveres," and is understood as those in whom God perseveres. I Christians read ALWAYS read the word "Israel" with that in mind they'll learn something vast and enormously important from the Bible.

Romans 11:7
What then? What [those in whom God perseveres were] seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened.

Romans 11:25-27 ESV
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon [those in whom God perseveres], until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all [those in whom God perseveres] will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

Romans 9:6-7
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to [those in whom God perseveres], and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”


And that last part of that last verse should be understood as, "Through [the son of promise] your offspring will be named."

 

[prism]

I am personally no fan of prophecy in general and eschatology in particular.

I resemble that remark, although some here would picture me as a dispensationsalist, equipped with charts, graphs, the Left Behind series and other paraphernalia, but I am nothing of the kind.

 

[atpollard]

Jesus will rule from that temple. Is he the glory of God.

Would that not be the Second Coming when we meet Him in the air? When the dead are raised? when everyone is judged? When all the things that Jesus promised at His return in places that are NOT Daniel and Revelation must happen?

That doesn't seem to leave room for a literal kingdom with a literal King Jesus ... that seems to imply TWO Returns (which isn't what clear scriptures describe).

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Would that not be the Second Coming when we meet Him in the air? When the dead are raised? when everyone is judged? When all the things that Jesus promised at His return in places that are NOT Daniel and Revelation must happen?

That doesn't seem to leave room for a literal kingdom with a literal King Jesus ... that seems to imply TWO Returns (which isn't what clear scriptures describe).

It would be when Jesus returns sits feet in ground. And rules with a rod of iron

 

[atpollard]

It would be when Jesus returns sits feet in ground. And rules with a rod of iron

Setting aside Revelation (which I refuse to take as LITERAL any vision that has a sword sticking out of Jesus’ mouth and Dragons attempting to eat babies and being chained in holes) … here is the only other reference to a Rod of Iron:

[Psa 2:1-12 YLT]

1 Why have nations tumultuously assembled? And do peoples meditate vanity? 2 Station themselves do kings of the earth, And princes have been united together, Against Jehovah, and against His Messiah: 3 'Let us draw off Their cords, And cast from us Their thick bands.' 4 He who is sitting in the heavens doth laugh, The Lord doth mock at them. 5 Then doth He speak unto them in His anger, And in His wrath He doth trouble them: 6 'And I -- I have anointed My King, Upon Zion -- My holy hill.' 7 I declare concerning a statute: Jehovah said unto me, 'My Son Thou [art], I to-day have brought thee forth. 8 Ask of Me and I give nations -- thy inheritance, And thy possession -- the ends of earth. 9 Thou dost rule them with a sceptre of iron, As a vessel of a potter Thou dost crush them.' 10 And now, O kings, act wisely, Be instructed, O judges of earth, 11 Serve ye Jehovah with fear, And rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Chosen One, lest He be angry, And ye lose the way, When His anger burneth but a little, O the happiness of all trusting in Him!​

Is there any sense in which this was not fulfilled at the incarnation and resurrection?
Does God (Christ) not raise those nations that serve him and crush those nations that he chooses to punish?

 

[EarlyActs]

I wonder why Paul didn't indicate it's fulfillment as he did many other times, saying something like, ' as Isaiah has said elsewhere'?

If you know 1st century history, the answer is because he was right in the middle of the most consequential event happening. There was always hope that the zealots would repent, not seek revolt, not ruin the country, help the apostles. That generation was so consequential that Luke used the term 'humiliating disinheriting' for those who did not follow the new Moses (Christ).

 

[prism]

If you know 1st century history, the answer is because he was right in the middle of the most consequential event happening. There was always hope that the zealots would repent, not seek revolt, not ruin the country, help the apostles. That generation was so consequential that Luke used the term 'humiliating disinheriting' for those who did not follow the new Moses (Christ).

Is that what 1st Century history taught you? I see we have difficulty coming up with the original biblical manuscripts, I believe all that you know of 1st century history is hearsay

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Is that what 1st Century history taught you? I see we have difficulty coming up with the original biblical manuscripts, I believe all that you know of 1st century history is hearsay

well we do have the NT which gives us most of the 1st century

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Setting aside Revelation (which I refuse to take as LITERAL any vision that has a sword sticking out of Jesus’ mouth and Dragons attempting to eat babies and being chained in holes) … here is the only other reference to a Rod of Iron:

well then we have no basis to even discuss.

If revelation is just a poem of riddles and parables that will never come true. then there is no reason or hope that God will say enough is enough. and he is going to wipe out evil like he said he would.

remember, John was told. these things I will show you will come to pass.. John tried to explain in his language what he was seeing.

[Psa 2:1-12 YLT]

1 Why have nations tumultuously assembled? And do peoples meditate vanity? 2 Station themselves do kings of the earth, And princes have been united together, Against Jehovah, and against His Messiah: 3 'Let us draw off Their cords, And cast from us Their thick bands.' 4 He who is sitting in the heavens doth laugh, The Lord doth mock at them. 5 Then doth He speak unto them in His anger, And in His wrath He doth trouble them: 6 'And I -- I have anointed My King, Upon Zion -- My holy hill.' 7 I declare concerning a statute: Jehovah said unto me, 'My Son Thou [art], I to-day have brought thee forth. 8 Ask of Me and I give nations -- thy inheritance, And thy possession -- the ends of earth. 9 Thou dost rule them with a sceptre of iron, As a vessel of a potter Thou dost crush them.' 10 And now, O kings, act wisely, Be instructed, O judges of earth, 11 Serve ye Jehovah with fear, And rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Chosen One, lest He be angry, And ye lose the way, When His anger burneth but a little, O the happiness of all trusting in Him!​

Is there any sense in which this was not fulfilled at the incarnation and resurrection?
Does God (Christ) not raise those nations that serve him and crush those nations that he chooses to punish?

what nations serve God today? What nations has Satan not deceived Today?

 

[atpollard]

what nations serve God today?

That depends on how seriously you take the claim of God's sovereignty.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That depends on how seriously you take the claim of God's sovereignty.

Look at the world.

How many nations serve and worship God today?

its not a hard question

 

[atpollard]

If revelation is just a poem of riddles and parables that will never come true

I never claimed THIS ... I said "I refuse to take as LITERAL any vision ...".

It is the eagerness of some to step over what is inconvenient in Revelation (like the sword sticking out of Jesus mouth) in one paragraph and then grab hold of another paragraph in Revelation (like a 1000 year kingdom) and shout "THIS is literal!" with no rhyme or reason but a preconceived narrative they seek to support, that I object to. Until ALL of Revelation can be embraced in a coherent manner, I prefer to look to OTHER passages on the end times for clarity.

 

[atpollard]

Look at the world.

How many nations serve and worship God today?

its not a hard question

1. The passage says "Kings", so it is speaking of PEOPLE serving God, not nations.
2. ALL nations serve God ... God is sovereign and everything unfolds EXACTLY according to GOD's plan. [See Satan in the book of Job.]

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I never claimed THIS ... I said "I refuse to take as LITERAL any vision ...".

A vision is prophecy.

so my comments stands

Revelation is mostly visions of things which are to come

It is the eagerness of some to step over what is inconvenient in Revelation (like the sword sticking out of Jesus mouth) in one paragraph and then grab hold of another paragraph in Revelation (like a 1000 year kingdom) and shout "THIS is literal!" with no rhyme or reason but a preconceived narrative they seek to support, that I object to. Until ALL of Revelation can be embraced in a coherent manner, I prefer to look to OTHER passages on the end times for clarity.

The sword sticking out of his mouth. What is this?

and when would we ever take 1000 years to be anything other than a thousand.

All prophecy has symbols of literal events.

Babylon was the head of Gold.. Did Babylon not exist?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

1. The passage says "Kings", so it is speaking of PEOPLE serving God, not nations.

Kings represent nations.. And the passage says families of the earth will come and worship. being punished if they do not.

2. ALL nations serve God ...

Show me which one?

God is sovereign and everything unfolds EXACTLY according to GOD's plan. [See Satan in the book of Job.]

Ahh.. fatalism..

Sorry. But I do not agree with this.. God is not the author of Evil.

 

[atpollard]

Kings represent nations.. And the passage says families of the earth will come and worship. being punished if they do not.

The passage ...

[Psa 2:1-12 YLT]
1 Why have nations tumultuously assembled? And do peoples meditate vanity? 2 Station themselves do kings of the earth, And princes have been united together, Against Jehovah, and against His Messiah: 3 'Let us draw off Their cords, And cast from us Their thick bands.' 4 He who is sitting in the heavens doth laugh, The Lord doth mock at them. 5 Then doth He speak unto them in His anger, And in His wrath He doth trouble them: 6 'And I -- I have anointed My King, Upon Zion -- My holy hill.' 7 I declare concerning a statute: Jehovah said unto me, 'My Son Thou [art], I to-day have brought thee forth. 8 Ask of Me and I give nations -- thy inheritance, And thy possession -- the ends of earth. 9 Thou dost rule them with a sceptre of iron, As a vessel of a potter Thou dost crush them.' 10 And now, O kings, act wisely, Be instructed, O judges of earth, 11 Serve ye Jehovah with fear, And rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Chosen One, lest He be angry, And ye lose the way, When His anger burneth but a little, O the happiness of all trusting in Him!

 

[atpollard]

Ahh.. fatalism..

Sorry. But I do not agree with this.. God is not the author of Evil.

So Satan did not serve God's plan in the book of Job?
Joseph's brothers did not serve God's plan in selling him into slavery?
Pilate did not serve God's plan in crucifying Christ?

OK. Agree to disagree.