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A Preterist problem passage?

prism

Asleep in the boat Lu 8:23-24
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I'm assuming preterists believe all prophecies have been fulfilled by 70AD (except perhaps full preterists—Christ's 2nd Coming).

Romans 11:26 KJV
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Has all Israel been saved?

For the Full Preterist...has the Deliverer come out of Sion

for both, has ungodliness been turned from Jacob?
 
I'm assuming preterists believe all prophecies have been fulfilled by 70AD (except perhaps full preterists—Christ's 2nd Coming).

Romans 11:26 KJV
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Not all Israel is Israel.
Does Israel mean Israel in name or true Israel?
 
I'm assuming preterists believe all prophecies have been fulfilled by 70AD (except perhaps full preterists—Christ's 2nd Coming).

Romans 11:26 KJV
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Has all Israel been saved?

For the Full Preterist...has the Deliverer come out of Sion

for both, has ungodliness been turned from Jacob?
Short answer … YUP.

Long answer:

Prior to Daniel, Israel (the nation and people of God) had drifted so far away from God that He pulled the trigger on the CURSES set out in the books of Moses. God turned his back and “laughed at their calamity”. NEVER AGAIN was it reported that the presence of God dwelt in the Holy of Holies. Never again was it reported that God was with (among) His people as He had been in the days before.

Never again did God send a Judge or a King to deliver Israel and Jacob from oppressors.

NOT UNTIL HE DID. When John the Baptizer appeared and the Jesus arrived on the scene. Up to that point, the Priests and Levites and Teachers had “abolished” (Hebrew idiom for taught incorrectly) the Law of God. Then Jesus came and “fulfilled” (Hebrew idiom for taught correctly) the Law of God.

What did the people listening say? “He speaks with authority” … Jesus did not explain the Law as men had been handing down misinterpretations from teacher to student for generations, passing on the errors perfectly. Jesus spoke of the Law from the Law with understanding given by God Himself … revealing the Law as it was meant to be understood.

Jacob was finally turned from ungodliness. Out of Zion (the Holy place) a DELIVERER had come! All Israel (the PEOPLE OF GOD) were saved. It all came to pass in the unfolding of the Gospels and Acts. Dead branches were cut off. New (wild) branches were grafted into the True Vine (Jesus). The Children of the Faith of Abraham were saved and became the Children of God … not children of the flesh, but children of the promise.

As Peter said, the only reason Jesus delays his return is the love of God “usward” … allowing time to gather in all whom are beloved (as many as are ordained). When the harvest is finished, the Lord will return. Until then, we work the field and eagerly await His return.
 
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Not all Israel is Israel.
Does Israel mean Israel in name or true Israel?
My point was..."There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

Has the Redeemer come out of Zion, turning away ungodliness from Jacob"?
 
Jacob was finally turned from ungodliness.
It doesn't help to spiritualize the text when the Deliverer is our incarnate Lord. It's only a tool of convenience to read into the text one's meanings.(IMHO)
 
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It doesn't help to spiritualize the text when the Deliverer is our incarnate Lord. It's only a tool of convenience to read into the text one's meanings.(IMHO)
It wasn’t spiritualized.

If we literalize it … Jacob died a thousand years before Christ was born (too late for him to turn).
Therefore, “Jacob” is probably the nation. Reading the gospels, the nation turned to Jesus (and back towards God) in droves. Masses went to John the Baptist and thousands added at Pentecost … how many before you will accept that the nation (Jacob) was delivered?

If you are expecting 100% to be saved, you have misunderstood the wide and narrow roads.
 
Never said that, nor did I imply Jacob was the elect of Israel.
No you didn't. I apologize if it seemed like I had implied that you had (I was merely covering all the bases).

What you said was ...
It doesn't help to spiritualize the text when the Deliverer is our incarnate Lord. It's only a tool of convenience to read into the text one's meanings.(IMHO)

... which (as I read it) amounts to little more than a "taint so" response to my original post about Jacob (biological Israel) being "delivered" from the Babylon to Jesus apostasy by the arrival of John the Baptist & Jesus and the events recorded in the Gospels and Acts (with only the Second Coming remaining on hold until the full number are gathered in) [see post #3].
 
Prior to Daniel, Israel (the nation and people of God) had drifted so far away from God that He pulled the trigger on the CURSES set out in the books of Moses. God turned his back and “laughed at their calamity”.
Yes, Deut 29:15- came to pass, but as Rom 11:11b indicates her fall was temporary. (παραρρέω 2aor. pass. subjunctive παραρυῶ; ( slip from, off, away; metaphorically in the NT of being like a ship drifting without anchorage drift away from, gradually neglect (HE 2.1). (Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament)

Romans 11:11 KJV
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

I doubt God laughed at their calamity, in light of...
Ezekiel 33:11 KJV
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Jacob was finally turned from ungodliness.
Apparently, that is still to come, or are you trying to say the church is Jacob? If that was the case, why is Paul comparing the unbelieving Jews with the Gentiles in Romans 11?
 
Apparently, that is still to come, or are you trying to say the church is Jacob? If that was the case, why is Paul comparing the unbelieving Jews with the Gentiles in Romans 11?
Jacob is anyone and everyone that is a "Jew" by birth ... those in whose veins the blood of Jacob flows ... that is why they made the distinction between Jacob (father of the people by the flesh) and Israel (the people of God by the promise of God). Paul also said "For he is not a Jew who [is one] outwardly, nor [is] circumcision that which [is] outward in the flesh; but [he is] a Jew who [is one] inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise [is] not from men but from God." - Rom 2:28-29 [NKJV]

Therefore the CHURCH is both those of JACOB that were DELIVERED ["Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." Now when they heard [this], they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?" Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation." Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them]. - Act 2:36-41 [NKJV]]

and the GENTILES who were GRAFTED alongside them ["And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, [remember that] you do not support the root, but the root [supports] you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." Well [said]. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in [His] goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who [are] natural [branches], be grafted into their own olive tree?"] - Rom 11:17-24 [NKJV]

All of this happened THEN [when Jesus walked the earth and saved the Apostles (Jacob) and the Samaritans (mixed blood) and the Roman Centurion (Gentile) ] ... and in Acts [when Peter called Jacob at Pentacost, and Paul gathered Gentiles around Ephesus] ... and is still happening today [when God calls a Jewish man to a Messianic faith, and an atheist gentile - me - to the same Christian Faith].

What MORE can God do? What MORE can we really be waiting for? DELIVERANCE is unfolding before our eyes, starting with Christ and running uninterrupted to the present. One of Jesus important messages was JEW or GREEK no longer matters ... GOD is the GOD of all and there is only ONE NAME by which all men are saved (or they are not 'delivered' at all).
 
I'm assuming preterists believe all prophecies have been fulfilled by 70AD (except perhaps full preterists—Christ's 2nd Coming).
Why would that be assumed? Only full preterists believe all prophecies have been fulfilled by the time of 70 AD, and full prets are a minority, outlying population within both Christianity and preterism.
Romans 11:26 KJV
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Has all Israel been saved?
The Israel about which Paul was writing at that time has been saved. That verse cannot be made to apply to people living hundreds, much less thousands of years later because the chapter explicitly states,

Romans 11:5
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.

Paul was writing about his present time, NOT two millennia later.
For the Full Preterist...has the Deliverer come out of Sion.
For the full pret the answer will be, "Yes," but why ask when you know you will not accept that answer - or the explanation a full-pret provides?
for both, has ungodliness been turned from Jacob?
For the full-pret the answer will be, "Yes," but why ask when you know you will not accept that answer - or the explanation a full-pret provides?

How is it this op is not a big bait?


I am not full-pret. I'll get that on the record so there's no confusion. Consider what I have posted HERE and HERE. In short, every Christian is partial-preterist simply because, as Christians, we believe all the messianic prophecies are fulfilled in Jesus. There's only one Messiah and Jesus is him. There will not be another Messiah. We are, therefore, Christologically preterist. Similarly, because we believe Jesus and Jesus alone is the only means of salvation form all..... we are also soteriological preterists. So, learn two things from this: 1) most theologians grossly misrepresent preterism and all of them who do so are, therefore, arguing a straw man that no Christian should think is true or has any veracity, and 2) preterism is not a boogie man. We're all preterist to one degree or another. The question is to what degree am I, or the faith sibling sitting next to me, a preterist. Read those two posts. John MacArthur and Gary Hamrick are Dispensational Premillennialists..... but they are also partially preterist. Read those to posts.
 
Why would that be assumed? Only full preterists believe all prophecies have been fulfilled by the time of 70 AD, and full prets are a minority, outlying population within both Christianity and preterism.
I did say "(except perhaps full preterists—Christ's 2nd Coming)." I don't understand partial preterism, is that sort of like 'kinda pregnant?
The Israel about which Paul was writing at that time has been saved. That verse cannot be made to apply to people living hundreds, much less thousands of years later because the chapter explicitly states,
Is that why Paul differentiates between the saved Gentiles and Israel in Romans 11?
Paul was writing about his present time, NOT two millennia later.
The truths of God's Word are eternal, not just temporal.
For the full pret the answer will be, "Yes," but why ask when you know you will not accept that answer - or the explanation a full-pret provides?
Who knows? I might learn something.
How is it this op is not a big bait?
Bait is useless without a fish biting.
I am not full-pret. I'll get that on the record so there's no confusion. Consider what I have posted HERE and HERE. In short, every Christian is partial-preterist simply because, as Christians, we believe all the messianic prophecies are fulfilled in Jesus. There's only one Messiah and Jesus is him. There will not be another Messiah. We are, therefore, Christologically preterist. Similarly, because we believe Jesus and Jesus alone is the only means of salvation form all..... we are also soteriological preterists. So, learn two things from this: 1) most theologians grossly misrepresent preterism and all of them who do so are, therefore, arguing a straw man that no Christian should think is true or has any veracity, and 2) preterism is not a boogie man. We're all preterist to one degree or another. The question is to what degree am I, or the faith sibling sitting next to me, a preterist. Read those two posts. John MacArthur and Gary Hamrick are Dispensational Premillennialists..... but they are also partially preterist. Read those to posts.
I'm defining a partial preterist as one who believes all the prophecies have been fulfilled by 70 AD except the return of Christ. (I'm not sure how a partial preterist handles Zechariah 14 esp.

Zechariah 14:4 KJV
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
 
I did say "(except perhaps full preterists—Christ's 2nd Coming)." I don't understand partial preterism,
Let me then encourage you to reserve comments about not-understood viewpoints until they are understood.
is that sort of like 'kinda pregnant?
Ha ha.

No, it's not like kinda pregnant. It simply means some, even most, of the Bible's end-times prophecies have already occurred, already been fulfilled. So, for example, When Jesus explicitly states X, Y, and Z will occur in "this generation," and the Greek is conjugated in the near-demonstrative, we take him at his word, read those words exactly as written, and believe them exactly as stated. We don't try to make thinks work, because the events he described happened 2000 years ago and it is a mistake to subject (subjugate) scripture to secular history. The same happens when we read, things will happen quickly (or soon) because the time is near (Rev. 1:1-3) and much of what is written had already happened and was happening at that time. We do not try to make everything future when the text explicitly states some of it has already happened. Exactly, specifically how and when it happened is of less concern simply because it happened 2000 years ago and its value to us today is that 1) we can believe God because He has kept His word, and 2) the record teaches us principles and practices of value in every generation. We look forward only for those events either stated to be in the future (such as what happens after a non-literal millennium or in some additional prophecy added to what would happen back then).
 
Is that why Paul differentiates between the saved Gentiles and Israel in Romans 11?
I am not sure what that has to do with preterism but I'll entertain the inquiry until the departure from the op is more apparent.

The short answer is, "No, that is not why Paul makes a differentiation between Gentiles and Israel in Romans 11 and, again, the answer has nothing to do with preterism and everything to do with what is stated in the Romans 9-11 narrative, beginning with Paul's sadness, his "great sorrow and unceasing grief...... for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites." Part of the problem, according to Paul, is that not all Israel is Israel and not all descendants of Abraham are Abraham's children because the (covenant) promises of God come by faith, not bloodline or adherence to the Law.

It has nothing to do with preterism AND whenever you read any critic of preterism say it is you now know that critic is full of booldookie and, while s/he may have something of value to say on other matters his knowledge of preterism amounts to shameful ignorance he is, in his/her pride, seeking to spread to others.
The truths of God's Word are eternal, not just temporal.
Yes, and the eternal fact of Romans 11 is that Paul was writing about events in his present time. Because those events did occur we can and should learn from them, beginning with the knowledge God has been faithful (as opposed to the modern futurist's never-realized God will be faithful). Perhaps God does maintain a remnant in every generation but that is nowhere stated in the Romans 9-11 text. That would be an addition to what is stated.

And you're getting further and further off topic because the eternal truth of God's word has absolutely nothing to do with preterism.
Who knows? I might learn something.
I'm all for you doing so.
Bait is useless without a fish biting.
The comment is also irrelevant and so far afield of the op that it makes you look bad.
I'm defining a partial preterist as one who believes all the prophecies have been fulfilled by 70 AD except the return of Christ.
Then say that.

Don't hedge your comments as if that's only a possibility, and don't conflate fulls with partials. To ask the fulls if the return of Christ has already occurred obfuscates the premise of partial preterism and will lead to two completely different conversations with two completely different set of criteria.
 
(I'm not sure how a partial preterist handles Zechariah 14 esp.

Zechariah 14:4 KJV
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
You mean how the partial-preterist handles Zechariah 14:4.

Partial-preterists endeavor not to rip individual verses from their surrounding text and their inherently provided contexts. We endeavor to read each and every verse together and understand the passage as a whole. We definitely do NOT try to force the text to fit any already-existing view of end times we may have prior too reading the text of Zechariah 14. So, for example, we might read the entire chapter, or the larger narrative in which that chapter exists and take note of any temporal markers and audience affiliations the text might contain. We would then garner any understanding of when based upon those markers, on what is stated in the larger passage. We would also seek to understand what is written in the Zec. 14 text by what is written in the New Testament pertaining to the events described in Zec. 14. We make doctrine from scripture, not scripture from doctrine, especially not any man-made doctrine that was invented in the 19th century.

So, for example, the entire passage is entirely about events that occur at the coming of the LORD. That is the coming of YWHW, not Jesus 😮. It is the Tetragram that is explicitly stated in verse one of chapter 14. It is LORD, not Lord. Verse 9 tells the reader the LORD will be king over all the earth, which is a curious statement because if the LORD is God then, logically speaking, there has never been a moment in creation when the LORD was not King overall the earth. That verse, therefore, contains a redundancy that has to be explained, and the reader should then work the "hermeneutical spiral" - work from the immediate text, through the book as a whole, the prophets as a whole, the Bible as a whole, and that will inevitably lead to what the New Testament states about this Old Testament text. The New Testament repeatedly states Jesus is NOW the only rule and all other existing rules are subordinate to his..... except that of his Father's.

More importantly, we do not read Zechariah 14 literally because to do so would mean the destruction of Jerusalem and the text makes it explicitly clear the entire passage, the prophecy as a whole is about the remaking of Jerusalem. A person would have to do some investigation to understand the verse cannot be read literally, but that investigation isn't difficult. Simply follow the markers provided by the Zec. 14 text to find the earthquake that results from the LORD setting foot on Mount Olive would extend almost to the coast and several kilometers ot the west and if it were literally so violent that it moved the mountains north and south the Jerusalem would be destroyed and all the people in the city would die. In other words, a literal reading of the verse would literally contradict everything else stated in the rest chapter. Christians in general try to avoid making scripture contradict itself. It has nothing to do with preterism.

Then when we look to the New Testament we find a lot that could be read to allude to Zechariah 14 but that runs the risk of eisegesis. There are only two mentions of Zechariah in the NT, and both occur in the gospels, and both are references to judgment being brought upon the scribes and Pharisees.

Matthew 23:34-36
"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."

Luke 11:45-52
One of the lawyers *said to Him in reply, "Teacher, when You say this, You insult us too." But He said, "Woe to you lawyers as well! For you weigh men down with burdens hard to bear, while you yourselves will not even touch the burdens with one of your fingers. "Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and it was your fathers who killed them. "So you are witnesses and approve the deeds of your fathers; because it was they who killed them, and you build their tombs. "For this reason also the wisdom of God said, 'I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute, so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.' "Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you yourselves did not enter, and you hindered those who were entering."

Both the charges and the guilt of their past would come upon the generation of those scribes and Pharisees to whom Jesus was speaking. Both statements explicitly state the judgment to be received for killing Zechariah (and the other prophets) would be meted out in that generation, not some generation two (or more) millennia later. Preterists, whether partial or full, read that exactly as written and believe it exactly as written. We do not impose some extra-biblical doctrine on the text to make it say anything other than what is plainly stated. We let the NT explain the OT.

While I couple consume a handful of posts with additional information the Bible gives us about Zechariah 14:4 (for example, Jesus did set foot on the Mount of Olives and dictate the destruction of Jerusalem). I will mention only two other examples. Revelation mentions an earthquake BUT there's no mention of Jesus or God being physically on the planet. According to the book of Revelation everything that happens on earth is commanded from heaven and Jesus is not explicitly reported to come to earth until chapters 21 and 22 (which necessarily means Jesus physical return is post-millennial). If the earthquake of Revelation 16 is the same as the earthquake of Zechariah 14 then, again, the city of Jerusalem and all ife therein is literally destroyed and that would be antithetical to the plain reading of both the Revelation and Zechariah texts. The second example has to do with something modern futurists often teach because they often draw a line from Zechariah 14:4 to Revelation 14:1 where the Lamb stands on Mount Zion. There are a number of problems with this interpretation because the LORD stands on the Mount of Olives and the Lord stands on Mt. Zion, and the Mount of Olives and Mt. Zion are not the same mountain. They are close, but not the same. One is to the east of Jerusalem and the other to its south (with the Kidron Valley in between. In the prophesied earthquake these two mountains would move further way from one another and one of them, the Mount of Olives, would likely be destroyed since the earthquake's destruction moves west and east. So, again, Christians in general try not to make scripture contradict itself and that has absolutely nothing to do with preterism of any kind.
 
Part 2

The lessons those of us who are living two millennia later are to learn and apply are things like,

  • God can be trusted because He has already kept His word (and, by implication, He will always do so).
  • God holds leaders accountable for their actions.
  • Jesus is both Judge and Savior (as well as apostle, prophet, evangelist, teacher, and preacher).
  • There are serious consequences for defying God, for actively working against Him.
  • The prophets were/are correct.
  • Being a child of God's is no guarantee of a safe life.

And....., were we to examine the larger narrative of Matthew 21:18 - 26:5 (a record of the day after Jesus entered Jerusalem = just one day!), that list would be longer. Therefore, understanding the events described have already happened does not make them irrelevant to future generations BUT claiming they did not happen does make them irrelevant to every generation that lived between their utterance all the way until some undetermined time when they do supposedly occur. In other words, were we to make a comparison between partial-preterism and modern futurism, it is the latter that makes scripture irrelevant, not the former.


And I again remind you that any modern futurist who believes the seven letters of Revelation 2-3 were about events that happened in the first century then you're a partial-preterist. You just happen to be less partial than me and most other partial-prets. 😁
 
You mean how the partial-preterist handles Zechariah 14:4.

Partial-preterists endeavor not to rip individual verses from their surrounding text and their inherently provided contexts. We endeavor to read each and every verse together and understand the passage as a whole. We definitely do NOT try to force the text to fit any already-existing view of end times we may have prior too reading the text of Zechariah 14. So, for example, we might read the entire chapter, or the larger narrative in which that chapter exists and take note of any temporal markers and audience affiliations the text might contain. We would then garner any understanding of when based upon those markers, on what is stated in the larger passage. We would also seek to understand what is written in the Zec. 14 text by what is written in the New Testament pertaining to the events described in Zec. 14. We make doctrine from scripture, not scripture from doctrine, especially not any man-made doctrine that was invented in the 19th century.

So, for example, the entire passage is entirely about events that occur at the coming of the LORD. That is the coming of YWHW, not Jesus 😮. It is the Tetragram that is explicitly stated in verse one of chapter 14. It is LORD, not Lord. Verse 9 tells the reader the LORD will be king over all the earth, which is a curious statement because if the LORD is God then, logically speaking, there has never been a moment in creation when the LORD was not King overall the earth. That verse, therefore, contains a redundancy that has to be explained, and the reader should then work the "hermeneutical spiral" - work from the immediate text, through the book as a whole, the prophets as a whole, the Bible as a whole, and that will inevitably lead to what the New Testament states about this Old Testament text. The New Testament repeatedly states Jesus is NOW the only rule and all other existing rules are subordinate to his..... except that of his Father's.

More importantly, we do not read Zechariah 14 literally because to do so would mean the destruction of Jerusalem and the text makes it explicitly clear the entire passage, the prophecy as a whole is about the remaking of Jerusalem. A person would have to do some investigation to understand the verse cannot be read literally, but that investigation isn't difficult. Simply follow the markers provided by the Zec. 14 text to find the earthquake that results from the LORD setting foot on Mount Olive would extend almost to the coast and several kilometers ot the west and if it were literally so violent that it moved the mountains north and south the Jerusalem would be destroyed and all the people in the city would die. In other words, a literal reading of the verse would literally contradict everything else stated in the rest chapter. Christians in general try to avoid making scripture contradict itself. It has nothing to do with preterism.

Then when we look to the New Testament we find a lot that could be read to allude to Zechariah 14 but that runs the risk of eisegesis. There are only two mentions of Zechariah in the NT, and both occur in the gospels, and both are references to judgment being brought upon the scribes and Pharisees.

Matthew 23:34-36
"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."

Luke 11:45-52
One of the lawyers *said to Him in reply, "Teacher, when You say this, You insult us too." But He said, "Woe to you lawyers as well! For you weigh men down with burdens hard to bear, while you yourselves will not even touch the burdens with one of your fingers. "Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and it was your fathers who killed them. "So you are witnesses and approve the deeds of your fathers; because it was they who killed them, and you build their tombs. "For this reason also the wisdom of God said, 'I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute, so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.' "Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you yourselves did not enter, and you hindered those who were entering."

Both the charges and the guilt of their past would come upon the generation of those scribes and Pharisees to whom Jesus was speaking. Both statements explicitly state the judgment to be received for killing Zechariah (and the other prophets) would be meted out in that generation, not some generation two (or more) millennia later. Preterists, whether partial or full, read that exactly as written and believe it exactly as written. We do not impose some extra-biblical doctrine on the text to make it say anything other than what is plainly stated. We let the NT explain the OT.

While I couple consume a handful of posts with additional information the Bible gives us about Zechariah 14:4 (for example, Jesus did set foot on the Mount of Olives and dictate the destruction of Jerusalem). I will mention only two other examples. Revelation mentions an earthquake BUT there's no mention of Jesus or God being physically on the planet. According to the book of Revelation everything that happens on earth is commanded from heaven and Jesus is not explicitly reported to come to earth until chapters 21 and 22 (which necessarily means Jesus physical return is post-millennial). If the earthquake of Revelation 16 is the same as the earthquake of Zechariah 14 then, again, the city of Jerusalem and all ife therein is literally destroyed and that would be antithetical to the plain reading of both the Revelation and Zechariah texts. The second example has to do with something modern futurists often teach because they often draw a line from Zechariah 14:4 to Revelation 14:1 where the Lamb stands on Mount Zion. There are a number of problems with this interpretation because the LORD stands on the Mount of Olives and the Lord stands on Mt. Zion, and the Mount of Olives and Mt. Zion are not the same mountain. They are close, but not the same. One is to the east of Jerusalem and the other to its south (with the Kidron Valley in between. In the prophesied earthquake these two mountains would move further way from one another and one of them, the Mount of Olives, would likely be destroyed since the earthquake's destruction moves west and east. So, again, Christians in general try not to make scripture contradict itself and that has absolutely nothing to do with preterism of any kind.
I am generally uncomfortable with Prophecy and Eschatology (because I am so bad at figuring it out without waiting for Jesus or an Angel to come along and explain what it meant … “Mene, Mene, Tekel, and Parsin” - Dan 5:25 is the only one I ever figured out on my own before Scripture explained it to me). That said …

Wasn’t the Mount of Olives where Jesus was arrested?
In a sense, didn’t Jesus stand on the Mount of Olives and split the NATION in half, creating a wide valley between the Jews that would become Christians and the Jews that would reject “so great a salvation”? I seem to have a vague recollection that mountains were often symbolic for nations.

(Just thinking about a possible ‘partial preterist’ fulfillment of Zechariah 14:4 in the Gospels and Acts.)
 
I'm defining a partial preterist as one who believes all the prophecies have been fulfilled by 70 AD except the return of Christ. (I'm not sure how a partial preterist handles Zechariah 14 esp.

Zechariah 14:4 KJV
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Oh, man, I almost missed this attempted subterfuge!

I, and many, many non-modern-futurists here and in every non-futurist Christian forum have repeatedly noted how difficult it is to discuss eschatology with a futurist because one of the common practices with which we chronically have to deal is that of the ever-changing subject of discussion. This op asks about Romans 11:26 and only Romans 11:26! That verse has been addressed and the response to the commentary provided was to ignore the commentary. The response was to ignore the commentary and change the subject - move the discussion away from Romans 11:26 to Zechariah 14:4.

How about not doing that? How about you and I return to the specified topic of Romans 11:26 and you respond to the fact Paul explicitly stated the remnant was preserved at that present time? How about addressing the fact there's not a single word in the three-chapter narrative that specifically mentions anything two millennia later? How about you not change the subject?
 
If the earthquake of Revelation 16 is the same as the earthquake of Zechariah 14 then, again, the city of Jerusalem and all ife therein is literally destroyed and that would be antithetical to the plain reading of both the Revelation and Zechariah texts.
Zechariah 14 does not teach that this literal earthquake (just like the one in King Uzziah's days) would cause the Mount of Olives to destroy the city of Jerusalem and all life within it. If you read the LXX, this Zechariah 14 earthquake at Christ's bodily return to the Mount of Olives would cause the Kidron Valley to be "blocked up" all the way to Azal, just as it happened back in King Uzziah's days. It did not say that this earthquake would create a valley.

The crest of the Mount of Olives would break apart, and the resulting landslide rubble would fall downhill in all directions, blocking up the Kidron Valley as far south as the Azal location. This already happened back in AD 70. The literal layer of rocky debris from that earthquake has been analyzed by archaeologists and dated to this first-century period. The second coming of Christ at that time left physical proof that is still lying in the Kidron Valley today as proof that He came when and where scripture predicted He would bodily return.

Revelation mentions an earthquake BUT there's no mention of Jesus or God being physically on the planet.
Any return of Christ Jesus of necessity MUST include His glorified, bodily-resurrected human form, which He has never abandoned since the day of His resurrection. That is why both Zechariah and Revelation tells us that every eye of "those who pierced Him" would wail when they saw Him physically appear. Which that first-century generation of Jews in the besieged city of Jerusalem did see, just as prophesied.

Romans 11:26 KJV
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Has all Israel been saved?

For the Full Preterist...has the Deliverer come out of Sion

for both, has ungodliness been turned from Jacob?
All the "Israel of God" would be saved - including the believing elect remnant of ethnic Jews which Paul said was then present in the first century (Romans 11:5). The surrounding context of Isaiah 59:20 (which Paul refers to in Romans 11:26) speaks of God exacting His furious vengeance against the disobedient apostate Jews when He came to Zion. "And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord." Take note: it is only a select, specific group "IN Jacob" which would be turning from their transgression. It would not be the entire ethnic nation which came from Jacob who would turn from their transgression. As Isaiah spoke elsewhere prophetically (Romans 9:27-28 cp Isaiah 10:22-23), it would only be a "remnant" of ethnic descendants in Christ's days which would be "elect" to salvation. The majority of His own people rejected Christ Jesus at His first coming (John 1:11). They were the "enemies" of the gospel which the returning Christ exacted His vengeance upon in the AD 70 era.
 
I am generally uncomfortable with Prophecy and Eschatology (because I am so bad at figuring it out without waiting for Jesus or an Angel to come along and explain what it meant … “Mene, Mene, Tekel, and Parsin” - Dan 5:25 is the only one I ever figured out on my own before Scripture explained it to me). That said …
Which is why I made mention of the fact we do not need to know how a prophecy was fulfilled if the text of scripture explicitly states the prophecy had occurred or would occur within a specified period of time.
Wasn’t the Mount of Olives where Jesus was arrested?
Sorta. Jesus was arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane. Gethsemane is on the western slope of the Mount of Olives.

The timeline and geography thereof goes something like this: Jesus entered Jerusalem (probably on the first day of the week), cleaned out the temple, and then left the city. The next day he returned to the city (Mt. 21:18) and began teaching in the temple grounds. Over the course of that day the Sadducees and Pharisees made several attempts to confound Jesus but he corrected them on every occasion and, through the use of parable and his own inquiries, laid judgment at their feet. This caused further aggression on their part until Jesus outright condemned them (Mt. 23). That evening Jesus left the temple and crossed the saddle between the city and the Mount of Olives, climbing the Mount. The peak of the Mount of Olives sits about 200 feet above the roof of the temple. In other words, when the disciples came to Jesus and asked him their multi-pronged question they were sitting slightly above the temple, looking down upon it when they asked him when the temple would be destroyed. His response covers chapters 24 and 25 and at the end of his answer the scriptures note the Jewish leaders had also been meeting and decded to kill Jesus (Mt. 26:5). All that happens in one day. From there Jesus went to Simon Peter's house in Bethany where he was anointed with perfume in preparation for his soon-pending burial. He returned to the city to eat his last meal (John has him eating the Passover one day early), after which he went to Gethsemane to pray. He left Jerusalem and walked across the saddle again, climbing part way up the mount to the garden where he was arrested.
In a sense, didn’t Jesus stand on the Mount of Olives and split the NATION in half, creating a wide valley between the Jews that would become Christians and the Jews that would reject “so great a salvation”? I seem to have a vague recollection that mountains were often symbolic for nations.

(Just thinking about a possible ‘partial preterist’ fulfillment of Zechariah 14:4 in the Gospels and Acts.)
That is certainly one possible interpretation. It fits with the highly symbolic nature of prophecy but I, personally, try to be cautious interpreting scripture where scripture itself is not specific. One of the problems is that there are a variety of places where scripture makes differing statements about what happens when the LORD/Lord stand on a mountain. The Revelation text states the city is divided into three, not two. Since two is less than three a city divided into three parts is also, necessarily, divided in two. But hat starts to get messy. What we KNOW is that Jesus explicitly stated the events described in Matthew 24 would occur in "this generation" and the "this generation" is conjugated in the near demonstrative so it cannot be made to mean something two millennia (or more later). Therefore, if Matthew 24's conversation on the Mount of Olives is Revelation 16's Lamb standing on the Mount of Olives, then that portion of Revelation 16 falls into the category of Revelation 1:19 that has already been seen by John. John was there that night. He had personally seen it. That has nothing to do with Zec. 14:4, though, because Zec. 14:4 is Mt. Zion, not the Mount of Olives. If we look to the New Testament regarding what it states about Mt. Zion then the bestest, firstest place to start, imo, would be Hebrews 12:2.


Hebrews 12:18-24
For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. For they could not bear the command, "If even a beast touches the mountain, it will be stoned." And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I am full of fear and trembling." But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

According to the author of Hebrews the saints of the first century has already come to Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. This is one of the passages the full-preterist might use to show Revelation 21-22 has already come true. I tend to disagree because Hebrews says we've come to the city, whereas Revelation states the city comes to earth - and it does so following the millennium of chapter 20. It would be very odd for the author of Hebrews to even remotely imply the millennium had begun and ended in the time between Matthew 22:18 and Hebrews 12. That is exegetically and logically untenable.

What is important to note (relevant to this op) is that the Hebrews author's comment is an example of a New Testament writer treating the Old Testament prophecy allegorically. According to the inspired author of Hebrews, the prophecies about God's people coming to Jerusalem, to God's city, and especially all those prophecies about their coming to a city not built by human hands, are fulfilled and fulfilled by their coming to God's heavenly city. In other words, the author of Hebrews is sitting on the planet Earth and writing to people reading his/her epistle while also sitting on earth and what they are reading while sitting on earth is that they have also come to the heavenly city of God, the heavenly city of peace (jeru = city; salem = peace). Therefore, when critics complain about allegorical treatment of scripture they are inherently and inescapably contending with the New Testament writers and, by extension, contending with God, denying God's own treatment of His own words.


But.... as I said in Post 18, we've just succumbed to the bait and switch of moving the discussion away from Romans 11:26 to Zechariah 14:4 and I won't be doing that further. At least not unto the matter of Romans 11:26 is resolved. I trust you understand.
 
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