Young Earth/Old Earth

[EarlyActs]

That's hilarious.

Why did the universe begin in a hot dense low entropy state? How can we measure anything before the everywhere stretch occured, even before the existence of time? ( Does this question have physical meaning? )

"The question then is whether the origin of the universe was a naturally occuring fluctuation or was it due to an external agent which started the system out in a specific low entropy state?" *

Boltzmann's primary contribution to 19th century physics was in particle thermodynamics and gases. Physicists at the time of Boltzmann didn't believe he was correct about atoms. Only later did we find out that Boltzmann was indeed - correct.

The Boltzmann brain hypothesis is an idea where a naturally occurring quantum fluctuation randomly created a very low entropy, very low probability state ( 1 in 10^10^120 ) and ever since the beginning of the everywhere stretch - the entropy of the universe continually increased. However, small fluctuations in entropy are much more likely to occur than larger ones. The smaller the fluctuation, the higher the probability. Reducing this concept from the universe to galaxies, or to our planet, or even a human, and then to -- > a human brain (Boltzmann's brain) is the construct used to help how cosmologists evaluate their own hypotheses.

Note: This brain is complete with false memories of our universe. < ---

- The hypothesis doesn't sit well with many cosmologists. "It's a cognitively unstable concept." Sean Carroll

As it turns out the mass of the Higgs and top quark must be so finely tuned and produced late enough for the universe to support humanity long before the Boltzmann Brain hypothesis can be put into effect.

______

* L. Dyson, M. Kleban, and L. Susskind, "Disturbing Implications of a Cosmological Constant", arXiv
.

Hi, what is the source of this quote:
- The hypothesis doesn't sit well with many cosmologists. "It's a cognitively unstable concept." Sean Carroll

 

[Inertia]

Hi, what is the source of this quote:
- The hypothesis doesn't sit well with many cosmologists. "It's a cognitively unstable concept." Sean Carroll

Haha -
I should have referenced it when I was responding at the time. Thanks for diving deeper.

There are other sources that support Sean Carroll's "cognitively unstable" observation about the Boltzmann Brain concept.

See, for example:

1.) ArXiv

or

2. ) Boltzmann's Universe

_____

.

 

[atpollard]

I chose "I don't know" because "Irrelevant" was not a choice.

Here (copied from my post elsewhere):

I know that it is popular to argue over Genesis 1 EXCLUSIVELY in the context of “Literal vs Figurative” and “6 days vs millions of years” and “Faith vs Science” with everyone choosing one of three views:​

• Pro-bible literalism
• Anti-bible scientific data
• ”Here is my reconciliation of the apparent contradiction”

As much “FUN” as those discussions are [that was sarcasm, they are the opposite of fun] … I was always attracted to something else. The fancy term is “POLEMIC”, but let’s toss that aside and just talk about Genesis 1 from a completely different point of view.​

​

WHAT IF …​

God appeared to you and wanted to talk to you about this potential Bible that He was going to inspire someone to write. People were going to have questions about the origin of everything (CREATION) and God could only afford to dedicate a limited number of words to His explanation. What God provided would be 100% accurate in its details, but limited in scope by the need for brevity. [Let’s face it, there is just a LOT of important information that God needed for Moses to convey and could not spend several books describing creation leading up to the first man and woman.]. So here is God’s question to you:​

• Would you rather have a limited but accurate account that reveals information about HOW everything was created, or would you rather have a limited but accurate account that reveals information about WHO created everything?
• Which do you think was more important to God to reveal to His people, HOW or WHO?
• So does it change anything in our thinking if Genesis 1 was written to reveal important information about WHO HE IS … this God that created everything … rather than HOW everything was created?

​

Genesis 1: WHO GOD IS​

An observation from Genesis 1:1 … God always existed. There is no “creation of God”. It is important to our understanding of God to know that He always was and always will be. That makes God “NOT LIKE US” -Holy, set apart, other is the fancy religious description if you get into specific Hebrew words. For me, ETERNAL and UNCHANGING covers enough ground to set the stage for understanding that God is not like Zeus (or any other pagan god).​

​

For the first three days, God DIVIDES things.​

• Day 1: God divides LIGHT from DARKNESS
• Day 2: God divides ABOVE from BELOW
• Day 3: God divides LAND from WATER

God is a God who creates by first DIVIDING. That is part of who He is and how He works … God’s modus operandi.​

[SPOILER ALERT: What if anything does this tell us about what will come later in the story? Think about it.]​

​

For the next three days, God creates by MULTIPLYING and filling what was divided in the first three days.​

• Day 4: God created lights … sun and moon and stars … to fill the ABOVE
• Day 5: God created creature … fish and birds … to fill the air (dividing above from below) and the WATER.
• Day 6: God created animals and man … to fill the LAND.

Thus God is a God who creates by first DIVIDING and then MULTIPLYING to fill the void created by the division. Division creates room for new creation. This is also part of who God is and how He works … God’s modus operandi.​

[SPOILER ALERT: What if anything does this tell us about what will come later in the story? Think about it.]​

​

Finally, on Day 7, God rests from His labor and BLESSES. This is also part of who God is and how He works … God’s modus operandi.​

[SPOILER ALERT: What if anything does this tell us about what will come later in the story? Think about it.]​

​

I don’t want to spoil too much of the fun for you, so I will leave you all to ponder for yourselves IF and HOW these lessons from Genesis 1 might apply to the work of the New Covenant. I will offer this observation instead:​

​

​

GENESIS 1: LOOKING AT ABRAM​

Abram was a ‘city boy’ living with his extended family in the ‘Fertile Crescent‘ (Mesopotamia, the birthplace of agriculture) when the God of Genesis 1 called Abram to leave his home, family and way of life behind to follow God. STEP 1: God DIVIDES Abram from his old land and life and people.​

​

God leads Abram and Lot and all their servants (because people NEVER quite obey God without hedging their bet). STEP 2: God MULTIPLIES Abram’s household and herds and wealth.​

​

God causes Isaac to be born in a miraculous conception, calls for the sacrifice of Isaac and then offers a ram in his place. STEP 3: God BLESSES Abram, renaming him Abraham, and provides blessings upon blessings for His chosen. Faithfulness is rewarded as “the Father of all who have faith” … through whom “all the nations of the Earth shall be blessed”.​

​

​

GENESIS 1: LOOKING AT MOSES​

Naw, I’m not going to do it … but you can look at it for yourself if you want.​

DIVIDE - MULTIPLY - BLESS​

Can you find the pattern?​

​

As for me, I will just point out that God revealed this pattern of WHO GOD IS and HOW GOD DOES THINGS in Genesis 1 … which I found a LOT more useful than a divine textbook on “evolutionary biology” or “planetology”.​

​

I will let all of you decide for yourselves.​

​

[PS: Could the repeated emphasis on THREE - 3 days of dividing, 3 pairs of things divided, 3 days of multiplying, structure of 3: DIVIDE, MULTIPLY, BLESS - be a hint pointing to a Trinity (Father - Son - Spirit) God right from the first part of the first book?]

 

[GeneZ]

Interpreting the Bible is not an exercise in creative writing class.

Though when its understood a bit of creativity can be helpful in explaining.....

But there will be only one true interpretation.

 

[Inertia]

I chose "I don't know" because "Irrelevant" was not a choice.

Here (copied from my post elsewhere):

I know that it is popular to argue over Genesis 1 EXCLUSIVELY in the context of “Literal vs Figurative” and “6 days vs millions of years” and “Faith vs Science” with everyone choosing one of three views:​

• Pro-bible literalism
• Anti-bible scientific data
• ”Here is my reconciliation of the apparent contradiction”

As much “FUN” as those discussions are [that was sarcasm, they are the opposite of fun] … I was always attracted to something else. The fancy term is “POLEMIC”, but let’s toss that aside and just talk about Genesis 1 from a completely different point of view.​

​

WHAT IF …​

God appeared to you and wanted to talk to you about this potential Bible that He was going to inspire someone to write. People were going to have questions about the origin of everything (CREATION) and God could only afford to dedicate a limited number of words to His explanation. What God provided would be 100% accurate in its details, but limited in scope by the need for brevity. [Let’s face it, there is just a LOT of important information that God needed for Moses to convey and could not spend several books describing creation leading up to the first man and woman.]. So here is God’s question to you:​

• Would you rather have a limited but accurate account that reveals information about HOW everything was created, or would you rather have a limited but accurate account that reveals information about WHO created everything?
• Which do you think was more important to God to reveal to His people, HOW or WHO?
• So does it change anything in our thinking if Genesis 1 was written to reveal important information about WHO HE IS … this God that created everything … rather than HOW everything was created?

​

Genesis 1: WHO GOD IS​

An observation from Genesis 1:1 … God always existed. There is no “creation of God”. It is important to our understanding of God to know that He always was and always will be. That makes God “NOT LIKE US” -Holy, set apart, other is the fancy religious description if you get into specific Hebrew words. For me, ETERNAL and UNCHANGING covers enough ground to set the stage for understanding that God is not like Zeus (or any other pagan god).​

​

For the first three days, God DIVIDES things.​

• Day 1: God divides LIGHT from DARKNESS
• Day 2: God divides ABOVE from BELOW
• Day 3: God divides LAND from WATER

God is a God who creates by first DIVIDING. That is part of who He is and how He works … God’s modus operandi.​

[SPOILER ALERT: What if anything does this tell us about what will come later in the story? Think about it.]​

​

For the next three days, God creates by MULTIPLYING and filling what was divided in the first three days.​

• Day 4: God created lights … sun and moon and stars … to fill the ABOVE
• Day 5: God created creature … fish and birds … to fill the air (dividing above from below) and the WATER.
• Day 6: God created animals and man … to fill the LAND.

Thus God is a God who creates by first DIVIDING and then MULTIPLYING to fill the void created by the division. Division creates room for new creation. This is also part of who God is and how He works … God’s modus operandi.​

[SPOILER ALERT: What if anything does this tell us about what will come later in the story? Think about it.]​

​

Finally, on Day 7, God rests from His labor and BLESSES. This is also part of who God is and how He works … God’s modus operandi.​

[SPOILER ALERT: What if anything does this tell us about what will come later in the story? Think about it.]​

​

I don’t want to spoil too much of the fun for you, so I will leave you all to ponder for yourselves IF and HOW these lessons from Genesis 1 might apply to the work of the New Covenant. I will offer this observation instead:​

​

​

GENESIS 1: LOOKING AT ABRAM​

Abram was a ‘city boy’ living with his extended family in the ‘Fertile Crescent‘ (Mesopotamia, the birthplace of agriculture) when the God of Genesis 1 called Abram to leave his home, family and way of life behind to follow God. STEP 1: God DIVIDES Abram from his old land and life and people.​

​

God leads Abram and Lot and all their servants (because people NEVER quite obey God without hedging their bet). STEP 2: God MULTIPLIES Abram’s household and herds and wealth.​

​

God causes Isaac to be born in a miraculous conception, calls for the sacrifice of Isaac and then offers a ram in his place. STEP 3: God BLESSES Abram, renaming him Abraham, and provides blessings upon blessings for His chosen. Faithfulness is rewarded as “the Father of all who have faith” … through whom “all the nations of the Earth shall be blessed”.​

​

​

GENESIS 1: LOOKING AT MOSES​

Naw, I’m not going to do it … but you can look at it for yourself if you want.​

DIVIDE - MULTIPLY - BLESS​

Can you find the pattern?​

​

As for me, I will just point out that God revealed this pattern of WHO GOD IS and HOW GOD DOES THINGS in Genesis 1 … which I found a LOT more useful than a divine textbook on “evolutionary biology” or “planetology”.​

​

I will let all of you decide for yourselves.​

​

[PS: Could the repeated emphasis on THREE - 3 days of dividing, 3 pairs of things divided, 3 days of multiplying, structure of 3: DIVIDE, MULTIPLY, BLESS - be a hint pointing to a Trinity (Father - Son - Spirit) God right from the first part of the first book?]

Your response leaves a lot of room for a wide-ranging discussion indeed. (nice)

In the meantime, I note:

"But I, the LORD, make the following promise: I have made a covenant governing the coming of day and night. I have established the fixed laws governing heaven and earth." (Jerimiah 33:25, NET)

Credit: NASA
Day and Night, simultaneously (Genesis 1:5)

"Get wisdom, get understanding; do not forget my words or turn away from them. Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you. The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding.

Cherish her, and she will exalt you; embrace her, and she will honor you. She will give you a garland to grace your head and present you with a glorious crown.” (Proverbs 4:5-9, NIV)



____
.

 

[Inertia]

Interpreting the Bible is not an exercise in creative writing class.

Though when its understood a bit of creativity can be helpful in explaining.....

But there will be only one true interpretation.

I believe it is God's word and that Genesis was written in ancient Hebrew at that time for a reason that may be only accessible to God.

Translations have improved as understanding has increased. For instance, a reliable realization of the "waw + noun" - perfect verb Hebrew construction with its uses was only achieved in the last ~ 70 years. Translators continue to advance their specialized toolsets and they get better and better at it.

- Proverbs 4:5-9 is good advice.

_____
.

 

[prism]

Which do you think was more important to God to reveal to His people, HOW or WHO?

I'm not sure one can separate the HOW from the WHO. The WHO is progressive throughout Scripture culminating in the Son. The HOW is revealed in Genesis and elsewhere in Scripture such as...

Hebrews 11:3 NASB95
By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

IOW, God may multiply by dividing, but He creates by speaking forth His Word.

 

[atpollard]

I'm not sure one can separate the HOW from the WHO. The WHO is progressive throughout Scripture culminating in the Son. The HOW is revealed in Genesis and elsewhere in Scripture such as...

Hebrews 11:3 NASB95
By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

IOW, God may multiply by dividing, but He creates by speaking forth His Word.

What is the "WORD"?

• God is spirit, we cannot over anthropomorphize God and require air vibrating over vocal chords and being shaped by a tongue and lips to form audible spoken words as a prerequisite for spirit God to create.
• God predates creation, so it cannot be the written words that Moses would begin to scratch down as Scripture that God requires to create.
• Shall we anthropomorphize an idea - like WISDOM in Proverbs as a woman - and make that the word that creates?
• Jesus is "the Word" ... was it His pre-incarnate body that spoke?

So what exactly does it mean for a spirit to speak creation into existence by the power of His word?
We really are no closer to understanding the details of HOW, are we?
Just more insight into the power and character of WHO.

 

[EarlyActs]

Notice the consistent account of the rise of sea level in these accounts:

 

[prism]

What is the "WORD"?

• God is spirit, we cannot over anthropomorphize God and require air vibrating over vocal chords and being shaped by a tongue and lips to form audible spoken words as a prerequisite for spirit God to create.
• God predates creation, so it cannot be the written words that Moses would begin to scratch down as Scripture that God requires to create.
• Shall we anthropomorphize an idea - like WISDOM in Proverbs as a woman - and make that the word that creates?
• Jesus is "the Word" ... was it His pre-incarnate body that spoke?

So what exactly does it mean for a spirit to speak creation into existence by the power of His word?
We really are no closer to understanding the details of HOW, are we?
Just more insight into the power and character of WHO.

How can the finite creation fully grasp the eternal Creator?

 

[EarlyActs]

How can the finite creation fully grasp the eternal Creator?

Yes, this is the advantage, you might say a logical one, in the tribal legends: the created thing is so complex that there is no process we know of. That makes 'spoken into existence' the only sensible explanation. The Sequalish WA tribe (near Seattle) is one of these.

 

[GeneZ]

How can the finite creation fully grasp the eternal Creator?

All a soul can ever know about God?
Know for all eternity?

Is already known IN CHRIST! For He is both fully God and Fully Soul in an eternal union.

That is why He is God's designated interpreter and translator of God for man.

Before the Incarnation, the same soul of Jehovah that became as a man for the Incarnation, was eternally in union with Deity.

Its in the Torah. Some try to explain these passages by saying they are an Anthropopathism.
But, its staring us right in the face! The soul that became Jesus the man, was always being in union with God
being called the "Lord God of Israel."

God is spirit! Not soul! (John 4:23-24)

Here are some OT examples of what I refer to....

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new.
Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not
reject you.'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall
be My people." Lev 26:10-12​

​

​

​

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah,
so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16​

​

​

​

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone
loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5​

​

​

​

“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons,
the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred
meeting. Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; They are a trouble
to Me, I am weary of bearing them.. Isa 1:13-14​

God is 'spirit.' Not soul!

The hypostatic union preceded the Incarnation that simply added a human body into the mix!

Its time we begin to understand this better than previous generations....


grace and peace .............

 

[prism]

How can the finite creation fully grasp the eternal Creator?

All a soul can ever know about God?
Know for all eternity?

Is already known IN CHRIST! For He is both fully God and Fully Soul in an eternal union.

So, have you as a finite creation, fully grasped the eternal creator?

 

[GeneZ]

So, have you as a finite creation, fully grasped the eternal creator?

Not quite how God has made it to become...

He is in his humanity... grasping all all humanity could ever possibly ever know about God by humanity.
All the God we can know? Is to be found in the Humanity of Christ."

Anything he can not comprehend in His humanity?

Will be what we will never be able to comprehend throughout all eternity. And, never know we are missing it.

That is why no one can come to the Father except through Him! He is all the God we can know!

And, all what He does comprehend about God in his humanity? Is never ending...

That should be enough to keep us busy.... forever.

grace and peace ................

 

[prism]

Not quite how God has made it to become...

He is in his humanity... grasping all all humanity could ever possibly ever know about God by humanity.
All the God we can know? Is to be found in the Humanity of Christ."

Anything he can not comprehend in His humanity?

Will be what we will never be able to comprehend throughout all eternity. And, never know we are missing it.

That is why no one can come to the Father except through Him! He is all the God we can know!

And, all what He does comprehend about God in his humanity? Is never ending...

That should be enough to keep us busy.... forever.

grace and peace ................

From my understanding of Scripture, I don't believe we can separate the two natures of Christ. But now...
Back to the OP, Young Earth / Old Earth.

 

[Shulammite]

From my understanding of Scripture, I don't believe we can separate the two natures of Christ. But now...
Back to the OP, Young Earth / Old Earth.

I say the earth to date is 16,523 yrs old. Why, might you ask? As I said before, I believe it took God 6 thousand years to make the earth, at least from our perception of 1 of God's days. On the 7 thousandth day He rested. Adam and Eve of course made during the 6 thousandth year. I believe they lived worry free for another 6thousand years until the end of that Day ( at the cool of the day). Another day of rest was not seen by God concerning men from that point on. I tried computing this before now I have my verdict.

1. On the sixth day God made man, I believe the days are as 1 of God's.
2. On the 7thousandth year God rested all was fine and Adam and Eve lived worry free for that 1 thousandth years ( from the 6th day to the day of rest).
3 We learn that in the cool of the Day the Lord is heard walking in the garden. In my opinion this is a riddle of the wise- a parable ( in the cool of the day) I say that is at the end of another 6thousand year cycle it was in the evening of it just before God's 7th day of rest.
4. Therefore, Adam and Eve lived in peace on earth for 7thousand years- the fall happened before the 7 thousandth cycle.
5. Aging did not exist before the fall. I would say they looked like a young 33 yrs of age- when God finished making them.
6. It says in scripture that Adam lived 930 yrs, that is in the fallen nature because I said in spiritual perfection there was no aging because there was no death. So, they lived 7,000 yrs in perfection after which Adam only lived 930 according to the fallen flesh. =7,930 yrs.
7.Counting from the time of the fall of Adam to Christ according to Enoch-According to Enoch’s prophecy, a Messiah would come 5,500 years after Adam’s death to free him and other lost souls from their chains. Enoch identified and described Jesus Christ 5,500 years before His coming.
8. I believe Adam's spiritual death was when his eyes were opened to the flesh that puts us at 7,000 years that is when the promise of the Messiah is given. Enoch says 5,500 years (HUMAN YEARS) after their fall the Messiah would come. That puts us at 13,500 yrs.
9. We must add another 1,000 yrs to 13,500 because the earth was 6,000 yrs old when Adam and Eve were made= 14,500.
10. Add to date 2023 from the time of Christ to us and I believe the earth to be about 16,523 yrs of age.

That makes young earth but not as young as some young earthers think. And clearly not even close to what freemasonry science says.

 

[prism]

I say the earth to date is 16,523 yrs old. Why, might you ask? As I said before, I believe it took God 6 thousand years to make the earth, at least from our perception of 1 of God's days. On the 7 thousandth day He rested. Adam and Eve of course made during the 6 thousandth year. I believe they lived worry free for another 6thousand years until the end of that Day ( at the cool of the day). Another day of rest was not seen by God concerning men from that point on. I tried computing this before now I have my verdict.

1. On the sixth day God made man, I believe the days are as 1 of God's.

2 Peter 3:8 NASB95
But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.


2 Peter 3:8 NKJV
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

If we want to follow the rules of grammar, it would be a mistake to mix similes and metaphors and make them a one to one equivalence.

'Is As' and 'Like' are similes showing a comparison. If you read the context of 2Pet 3:8 you'll see it shows the impatience of people asking "Where is His Coming?" "Things have been the same for thousands of years". But to God, Peter is saying 'For God, it's only been a few days'.
Personally, I prefer to stick with the more literal account in Genesis, i.e. 'evening and morning'...one day, 'evening and morning', the 2nd day, etc.
Consequently, I would date the earth no more than about 6,000 years.

 

[Shulammite]

2 Peter 3:8 NASB95
But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.


2 Peter 3:8 NKJV
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

If we want to follow the rules of grammar, it would be a mistake to mix similes and metaphors and make them a one to one equivalence.

'Is As' and 'Like' are similes showing a comparison. If you read the context of 2Pet 3:8 you'll see it shows the impatience of people asking "Where is His Coming?" "Things have been the same for thousands of years". But to God, Peter is saying 'For God, it's only been a few days'.
Personally, I prefer to stick with the more literal account in Genesis, i.e. 'evening and morning'...one day, 'evening and morning', the 2nd day, etc.
Consequently, I would date the earth no more than about 6,000 years.

Ok thanks for sharing opinion. I respectfully disagree.

 

[prism]

Ok thanks for sharing opinion. I respectfully disagree.

Well, compared to the millions of year some old-earthers hold, the difference between 6,000 and 16,000 years is chicken feed.
Out of curiosity, at what point do you disagree? (and I'll leave it at that).

 

[Shulammite]

Well, compared to the millions of year some old-earthers hold, the difference between 6,000 and 16,000 years is chicken feed.
Out of curiosity, at what point do you disagree? (and I'll leave it at that).

That was cute. Understood and agree- chicken feed. This isn't a salvation issue but simply a need to silence all the noise from the haters who scoff at young earth views.

To your question 1. if the earth is 6,000 yrs old, you are still omitting the 7th day. What does the 7th day account for to you? I account for it in my assessment, you do not, respectfully. Since I call the days thousands-concerning one of God's days, that would already make the earth at least 7,000 years old right there, in my opinion. Do you get what I am saying?

How do you, in your assessment account for that 7th day? God did after all create the seventh day, because it would not be if He didn't speak it into existence. For on it He rested.