Without an Excuse 😶

[Josheb]

For clarification, I meant what I said here to be based on Paternal Traducianism and Creationism; as if the good parts of both are true. Paternal Traducianism; Adam Procreates us, dead spirit and all. Creationism; God makes us Vessels when we are conceived/born, with Unfallen Spirits. God wouldn't have first made us Objects of his Wrath at the moment he formed us in the Womb. Due to the Curse of Original Sin, his Wrath abided on Us All before Creation; until he Made us Elect Vessels for Honor at our birth. His Wrath continues to abide on Reprobate Vessels he Makes for Dishonor at their birth. God Predestines either Election or Reprobation before the Foundation of the World, but he accomplishes it in Time by forming us in our Mother's womb. This summary is a combination of the Biblical parts of Paternal Traducianism, Infralapsarianism; and Creationism...

Forgive me, I edited this a lot before I got it the way I want it. I know this may not be 'Commentary Calvinism', but it's my commentary on these issues. I think it's closest to the Truth on the matter...

I agree. I'd use different wording and would appeal to biopsychogenesis (or psychobiogenesis) instead of traducianism, but I arrive at the same basic position. God originally made good stuff. Due to Adam the entire process, not just its constituent physical elements, has become corrupted. From the pool of corrupt humans (which is all humans born after Genesis 3:6) God saves some. I might even read the Potter's clay texts (Paul is referencing Isaiah and Jeremiah) to say God even assigns sinners "noble purposes." Saul's persecution of Christians while a Christ-denier certainly served God's (noble) purpose. When that purpose was accomplished in God's timing God then knocked that guy off his donkey, struck him blind, broke his will, changed him from the inside out, and then gave him a new noble purpose. Can we imagine Saul crying out "Why have you made me like this?" upon realizing he'd been killing God's people? Or did verse 20 come out of merely intellectual argumentation? I have a feeling Paul was writing partly from experience. On its face, it's a simple point but given the fact all have sinned and all things serve God's purpose it's filled with subtle diverse application.

 

[ReverendRV]

I agree. I'd use different wording and would appeal to biopsychogenesis (or psychobiogenesis) instead of traducianism, but I arrive at the same basic position. God originally made good stuff. Due to Adam the entire process, not just its constituent physical elements, has become corrupted. From the pool of corrupt humans (which is all humans born after Genesis 3:6) God saves some. I might even read the Potter's clay texts (Paul is referencing Isaiah and Jeremiah) to say God even assigns sinners "noble purposes." Saul's persecution of Christians while a Christ-denier certainly served God's (noble) purpose. When that purpose was accomplished in God's timing God then knocked that guy off his donkey, struck him blind, broke his will, changed him from the inside out, and then gave him a new noble purpose. Can we imagine Saul crying out "Why have you made me like this?" upon realizing he'd been killing God's people? Or did verse 20 come out of merely intellectual argumentation? I have a feeling Paul was writing partly from experience. On its face, it's a simple point but given the fact all have sinned and all things serve God's purpose it's filled with subtle diverse application.

I just used the Term I know; I hain't nary heard of Psychobiogenesis

 

[Ladodgers6]

No one was saved when Christ died for sins; God saves those who believe.

1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”​

Christ came on a mission to fulfill his Father's will, and gives them eternal life. So, Christ's death has purpose in its intent. There's no wishing or hoping it works out contingently. His Covenant of Grace is designed to save his people from their sins and fulfilled in the Last Adam.

1Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Again you think that fallen who are alienated from God, sworn enemies some how come to trusting and believing in him by a carnal mind of hostility? You need to rethink your position.

 

[Josheb]

I just used the Term I know; I hain't nary heard of Psychobiogenesis

LOL!

It's the term used in secular circles to explain how mental health conditions can be passed genetically within a family from one generation to the next, and not solely through learned behaviors. Recent discoveries have found links between childhood traumas and autoimmune diseases! One study found a significant correlation between early childhood trauma (ECTs) and pancreatic cancer. Disease, both mental and physiological can be transferred trough biological procreation. You may have read some of my posts where I've summarized how traumatic episodes change the brain on a cellular level. New neural pathways are formed, and they stay that way unless some other future episode or intervention changes them. It's real stuff. When CAT Scans and MRIs were invented, it became possible to take before and after images of the brain to document these kinds of changes.

Theologically speaking, this technology and the facts it reveals were unknown to the early theologians developing our doctrines but what this means is there is proof of a genetic basis for the transference of sin!

I would dare to say NOTHING has been more traumatizing than the fall from grace. One minute Adam was good, unashamed, and sinless and the next he was the exact opposite and he and Eve, and only he and Eve, are the only two humans to ever have had any memory of what life was like in the sinless state. Adam and Eve alone could make that comparison. For use it would be like what was life before I lost my right arm, or both legs, or both eyes in comparison to my subsequent lack.

Through the process of cellular reproduction (mitosis) every cell in the entire body replicates itself and eventually old cells are sluffed off or metabolized. In addition to our normal replacement of cells the cells also transfer data to one another and given enough time every cell in our body contains the sub-cellular record of the traumas we've experienced. That includes the gametes (sperm and ovum). So..... Adam contributes a sperm and Eve contributed an ovum and both reproductive cells contained some record of their fall from grace. They passed that on to their progeny at a cellular level. The result is that every single son and daughter was not like God had originally made Adam and Eve. Every child contained half the chromosomal record of their parents' history, both physiologically, and psychologically. Each child then, in their turn, experienced a life's worth of sin and trauma and passed their genetic record on to their children and Fred and Daphne's genetic record contained part of Adam and Eve's record. Eventually the genetic record of the fall that was originally Adam's and Eve's becomes so diluted that it's of minimal consequence BUT 1) it takes on one small impurity to render one imperfect and 2) by that time generations of sinners have so adulterated the genetic record originally created in Adam and Eve the point is moot. All have sinned and death comes to all. It's not specifically theology, but proper theology is never separate from sound science. Heliocentrism did not change scripture. Let God be true and all men liars. As we uncover more about the post-disobedient creation it informs our theology (and vice versa).


The point being, lest I digress far afield of the op, is that the Romans 9 text is a post-disobedient text that is also firmly supported by what we know scientifically. Paul did not know that science when he penned the epistle (maybe God did reveal it to him ) but that does not change the fact both theologically and scientifically ALL people are sinful or imperfect and it is from the population of corrupted people that God chooses some to save. Augustine did not have the science, either, but the Augustinian view is firmly supported by scientific discovery a millennium and a half later. Calvin did not have the science, but Calvinism is supported by the science 500 years later.

And as far as UC goes, there is nothing in humanity by which God might base His decision on our merits. We have no merits! Science proves it . No one has an excuse .

 

[PeanutGallery]

...
After using John 3:16 as a stand alone doctrinal verse, you then, and you are not alone in this, interpret world in a way in which it is seldom used, as applying to every individual without exception, and add the word choose in the place of believe. ...

World includes all men.

John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
1Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man
1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[PeanutGallery]

An excuse for what exactly?
To not believe, or to blame God?

For believing Limited Atonement.

 

[ReverendRV]

For believing Limited Atonement.

The Bible says we are without an Excuse; everything a Provisionist calls an Excuse, is not an excuse...

It's a Fundamental of the Faith; you violate it, right?

Why would you cause one of these little ones to Fall, by telling them they have an Excuse; just because you oppose Calvinism??

 

[Arial]

World includes all men.

John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
1Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man
1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

You cannot disprove what someone says by ignoring it and simply listing "proof texts" that you think contradict it. Let me make clear first what a proof text is as many seem to think that it is simply quoting a single scripture. It is quoting a single scripture without taking its surrounding context into consideration, and giving no commentary on the text that proves what is purported to be said is actually said.

Did you notice what I did with John 3:16 in post #40? That is what you need to do with the scriptures you gave.

Also, and this becomes very tiresome and is the only way in which A'ists argue, and not the way Reformed argue, is you make no attempt to disprove anything I said with any sort of exegesis or commentary from anywhere, on what I said. It is as though an argument for something was presented and was responded to as though the argument had not been given. If you want to disagree with what was said, you have to give a solid biblical basis for that disagreement, point by point. Not by going to some other scriptures that simply use the word "world" and say, "See. World means all people." And then not show that they do.

So I will do your work for you in another post and show you that oops, you needed to do some work. And then you will have the opportunity to prove you are right and I am wrong, point by point.

 

[Arial]

World includes all men.

John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
1Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

John 1:7 He care as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through Him. Is the "might" there a maybe? Is it saying that all men will believe? And why does it say believe through Him and not in Him?

In verse 11-13 it says He came to His own, and His own people did not receive Him. But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

We have our first clue that it does not mean everyman without exception. Remember John is giving an account of Jesus' life after His ascension so He is recounting things that have already happened and identifying Jesus. Who were His own? The Jews. They rejected Him. So what do the prophets say about Jesus? He would be a light to the Gentiles. So the all is most likely not every man without exception, but all nations, not just Israel, and the "might" is making it available to all nations. Shining over the whole world. It is the same with verse 9.

The world then in verse 29 is the same as the "all" in verse 7 and the "everyone" in verse 9.

1 Tim 1:15 This saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. I am wondering why you even picked this scripture. It does not say anything about Jesus saving all sinners without exception. It simply says He came to save sinners. It could just as easily be some sinners. It says neither of those things, is not discussing that topic so wouldn't be applicable to the way you are applying it. We do know however that He does not save all sinners. And in Paul's case it certainly had nothing to do with him making a decision. He was on his way to kill and persecute Jesus' flock. Jesus personally dropped him to his knees and turned him around 180 degrees. Jesus wanted him. Jesus took him.

 

[PeanutGallery]

...
Why would you cause one of these little ones to Fall, by telling them they have an Excuse; just because you oppose Calvinism??

The other way around; an unsaved person is familiar with the theology of Limited Atonement and responds with an excuse.

 

[PeanutGallery]

...
John 1:7 He care as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through Him. Is the "might" there a maybe? Is it saying that all men will believe? And why does it say believe through Him and not in Him?

All men are given light; but not all believe.

In verse 11-13 it says He came to His own, and His own people did not receive Him. But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

We have our first clue that it does not mean everyman without exception.

At that point in time; Jesus came to his own, which was Israel; not all Israel believed.

1 Tim 1:15 This saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. I am wondering why you even picked this scripture....

Sinners include all men.

 

[Josheb]

The other way around; an unsaved person is familiar with the theology of Limited Atonement and responds with an excuse.

LOL!

Got scripture to prove that?

 

[PeanutGallery]

...
Got scripture to prove that?

Yep; right next to the verse that states regeneration precedes faith.

 

[Josheb]

Yep;

I do not see it anywhere in the post.

right next to the verse that states regeneration precedes faith.

Nice cop out. Can you answer the question without shifting the onus and mockery or not? Have you got scripture to prove an unsaved person is familiar with the theology of Limited Atonement? Have you got scripture proving an unsaved person, knowing the theology of Limited Atonement responds with an excuse?

If so, then please post it. If not, then please just say so.

 

[Arial]

All men are given light; but not all believe.

You still have not illustrated to me why all means every person without exception. I did show you why it doesn't in those passages. Instead of just repeating yourself, you need to show me how I am wrong.

At that point in time; Jesus came to his own, which was Israel; not all Israel believed.

Once again you simply repeated yourself and did not bother to refute, showing your work, that what I said was not valid. The issue isn't whether or not all Israel did or didn't believe, but what the "all" and "everyone " means. You claim it means all people without exception and I illustrated that if you apply this passage to the rest of the context, "all" and "everyone" does not likely mean to all without exception, but rather to all nations and types of people. And we do know that the gospel and the salvation it announces is for Jew and Gentile alike. So----. Answer the issue and show your work.

Sinners include all men.

Obviously. That does not address the issue as to whether or not in 1 Tim 1:15 Paul is saying that Jesus came to save all sinners without exception.

 

[PeanutGallery]

...
Obviously. That does not address the issue as to whether or not in 1 Tim 1:15 Paul is saying that Jesus came to save all sinners without exception.

Jesus came to save sinners; no exclusion is made in that passage.
'all without exception' and 'all without distinction' is a theological distinctive.

 

[Arial]

World includes all men.

1Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man
1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

To clarify. Because you do not believe that Jesus only died for those that God gives Him, you interpret the "world" as being all men without exception. Let's see if you have proven that with the above scriptures.
1 Tim 4:10 "Savior of all men---". The gospel goes out to all men as a general call---just as the sun shines on all men, and rain falls on the just and the unjust alike---. This is because we do not know whom God has chosen to save. We only know they are among all tribes, and nations, and peoples, and there is only one Savior and one gospel.

"Especially of those that believe---" The Greek word translated "especially" may also be translated "that is to say." That is the only way in which that sentence actually makes any sense. And it is translated that way in other places in Paul's writings. By all men he means those who come to believe in Christ. When we determine the meaning of this passage we absolutely must take into consideration other things that the Bible says regarding who is saved and who Christ died for. A few would be John 6:37,44,64-65; John 10:14-16, 25-30 all which explicitly say that Jesus laid down His life for those the Father gives Him. So That passage in no way can be saying that Jesus laid down His life for everyone without exception, but only for those who are His sheep whom the Father gave Him.

Hebrews 2:9. That verse must be interpreted in light of what else is said in Hebrews, rather than saying it means all men of all time without exception and in the context of the results of Jesus' death. It refers to the many sons whom God brings to glory (v 10) whom Jesus calls brethren (v 1) those of the assembly (v 12) children whom God has given to Jesus (vv 13,14) the seed of Abraham (v 16.)

Will do the rest later. Have things to do.

 

[PeanutGallery]

To clarify. Because you do not believe that Jesus only died for those that God gives Him, you interpret the "world" as being all men without exception. ...

Provide verse which states. "Jesus only died for those that God gives Him"

 

[Arial]

Jesus came to save sinners; no exclusion is made in that passage.
'all without exception' and 'all without distinction' is a theological distinctive.

It is an actual distinction in whatever one is reading.

Of course Jesus came to save sinners. Who else would need to be saved? Did He save all sinners? Even you acknowledge He did not, yet you also say He died for them. Are you not able to see that your caveat that only those who choose Him, means that mostly He failed in what He came to do? Mostly He suffered and died in vain? That God valued man's freedom over His own and more than He valued His Son? What are you so afraid of that you intentionally wear blinders?

 

[Arial]

Provide verse which states. "Jesus only died for those that God gives Him"

I did. I will do it again.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
John 6:64-65 "Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him. He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father."
John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.
John 17:1-2 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to whom you have given him."

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:29-30 For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.

Do you see anything in just those few verses that indicates Jesus died for all men without exception?