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Without an Excuse šŸ˜¶

How can one be objective while reading through the lens of Reformation Study Bible, the Confessions of Faith, and TULIP?
This is valid. Reading through the lens/filter of any predetermined belief system would by definition be subjective and not objective.
In the extreme, it can become confirmation bias.
 
This is valid. Reading through the lens/filter of any predetermined belief system would by definition be subjective and not objective.
In the extreme, it can become confirmation bias.
That is true, but being objective is not reading through any lens but simply letting something speak for itself, and hearing, seeing, what it says and then evaluating it on its own merits, in this case, the way one arrives at what they say and whether or not it is viable with/in the full coundself of God---all of its teachings on the same subject. My offering up the Reformation study Bible was because @PeanutGallery ask specifically what Bible was best to see the teachings of Reformation theology and how they arrive at them. So I told Him which one I used----and it is not the only study Bible I use or have ever used. I suggested it because of all the information contained in it and the way it handles text notes and cross references. It makes it easy.

My mistake was in thinking he was really asking for that information or had any interest in it at all. That Bible is not a lens, but it gives a possible lens. But to each their own. The truth is he is looking through a subjective lens already and it is the one he chooses and does not question. That has never been good enough for me, and it is not what I do now. I see Reformed theology to be consistent with the whole counsel of God without arriving at teachings from singular scriptures or scriptures that are not put under the scrunnity of a theological microscope. And therefore one could say that I look through that lens, but it is done with objectivity, not subjectivity. And just because something is a lens through which one looks does not mean that the lens is faulty. I was simply offering him a tool, which is what he asked for, to be able to do this. I was not saying, "This is true. Believe this." Even though I do believe it. And how is someone supposed to learn about something without looking through the lens they are looking through?

The thing is, people reject Reformed theology out of hand, and actually try to argue against it, even though they have never studied it, have no idea what it teaches but simply say it teaches what they say it does, have no intent or interest in listening to what the other side says, can't even support their own beliefs objectively, and actually think they stand on the higher ground. Not to ever intend to or be capable of, one single objective thought, objectively demonstrated.
 
That is true, but being objective is not reading through any lens but simply letting something speak for itself, and hearing, seeing, what it says and then evaluating it on its own merits, in this case, the way one arrives at what they say and whether or not it is viable with/in the full coundself of God---all of its teachings on the same subject. My offering up the Reformation study Bible was because @PeanutGallery ask specifically what Bible was best to see the teachings of Reformation theology and how they arrive at them. So I told Him which one I used----and it is not the only study Bible I use or have ever used. I suggested it because of all the information contained in it and the way it handles text notes and cross references. It makes it easy.

My mistake was in thinking he was really asking for that information or had any interest in it at all. That Bible is not a lens, but it gives a possible lens. But to each their own. The truth is he is looking through a subjective lens already and it is the one he chooses and does not question. That has never been good enough for me, and it is not what I do now.

I see Reformed theology to be consistent with the whole counsel of God without arriving at teachings from singular scriptures or scriptures that are not put under the scrunnity of a theological microscope. And therefore one could say that I look through that lens, but it is done with objectivity, not subjectivity. And just because something is a lens through which one looks does not mean that the lens is faulty. I was simply offering him a tool, which is what he asked for, to be able to do this. I was not saying, "This is true. Believe this." Even though I do believe it. And how is someone supposed to learn about something without looking through the lens they are looking through?

The thing is, people reject Reformed theology out of hand, and actually try to argue against it, even though they have never studied it, have no idea what it teaches but simply say it teaches what they say it does, have no intent or interest in listening to what the other side says, can't even support their own beliefs objectively, and actually think they stand on the higher ground. Not to ever intend to or be capable of, one single objective thought, objectively demonstrated.
I understand, I also understand your frustration.
However, I saw the point being made as one of recognizing our own biases and we all have them.

fwiw, I reject all five points of TULIP to one degree or another and it's not because I'm unfamiliar with the teachings. I read the posts on this forum because they act as a counter to my own confirmation biases.
 
This is why systematic theology is so important. Generically systematic means something is based on or consulting a system. A step by step manner....
...
My offering up the Reformation study Bible was because @PeanutGallery ask specifically what Bible was best to see the teachings of Reformation theology and how they arrive at them. So I told Him which one I used...
I asked because you stated, "systematic theology is so important"; your response demonstrated a bias towards Reformed Theology.
The thing is, people reject Reformed theology out of hand, and actually try to argue against it, even though they have never studied it, ...
The truth is scripture never states Christ died for an 'elect' few to the exclusion of all others; thus the Reformed Systematic Theology.[/QUOTE]
 
I asked because you stated, "systematic theology is so important"; your response demonstrated a bias towards Reformed Theology.

The truth is scripture never states Christ died for an 'elect' few to the exclusion of all others; thus the Reformed Systematic Theology.
The Bible very clearly states that Jesus laid down his life for the sheep and for his bride. If these were not exclusive, then the statements would be misleading and pointless.

You don't have a leg to stand on.
 
The Bible very clearly states that Jesus laid down his life for the sheep and for his bride. If these were not exclusive, then the statements would be misleading and pointless.

You don't have a leg to stand on.
You forgot Paul:
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

You also forgot the world:
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man
 
You forgot Paul:
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

You also forgot the world:
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man
This is ludicrous...

How is Jesus giving himself for Paul (in which there is not a hint of exclusive intent) somehow supposed to be equivalent to Jesus giving himself for his sheep (as a group that is, of necessity, exclusive, since it contains some people and not others, as Jesus makes clear later in John 10, when he says that certain Pharisees do not believe, because they are not of his sheep)?

As far as Heb. 2:9 is concerned, the KJV has added the word "man" at the end of the verse. The Greek has, "...that he, by the grace of God, should taste death for every.". What the "every" refers to has to be taken from the context. Here is the context:

Heb. 2:9,10 (LITV)
9 but we do see Jesus crowned with glory and honor, who on account of the suffering of death was made a little less than the angels, so that by the grace of God He might taste of death for every son.
10 For it was fitting for Him, because of whom are all things, and through whom are all things, bringing many sons to glory, to perfect Him as the Author of their salvation through sufferings.

Here we see that the LITV has added a different word, "son", because it fits the context perfectly, as seen in the very next verse.

Now, even if we use "man", instead of "son", it STILL doesn't mean what you want it to mean, since then it means every man of the sons Jesus is bringing to glory.

Why do you NEVER attempt to explain the verses you claim support your position? It's because they NEVER support your position, if taken in context.
 
This is ludicrous...

How is Jesus giving himself for Paul (in which there is not a hint of exclusive intent) somehow supposed to be equivalent to Jesus giving himself for his sheep (as a group that is, of necessity, exclusive, since it contains some people and not others, as Jesus makes clear later in John 10, when he says that certain Pharisees do not believe, because they are not of his sheep)?
Neither verse posits an exclusion.

As their is no exclusion in this verse:
1Jonn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

As far as Heb. 2:9 is concerned, the KJV has added the word "man" at the end of the verse. ...
And different Bible version add different words.
Christ tasted death for every man; the sons are those who believed.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Parallel passage:
1Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
 
Neither verse posits an exclusion.

As their is no exclusion in this verse:
1Jonn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


And different Bible version add different words.
Christ tasted death for every man; the sons are those who believed.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Parallel passage:
1Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
You are correct that 1 John 2:2 is not about exclusion (it's also not what we were discussing...). It about the inclusivity of the propitiation - for every people group in the world, not only the Jewish believers to whom John was writing.

Do you see the "For", at the start of Heb. 2:10? It connects the thought-flow in verse 10 with the end of verse 9; so, Jesus was bringing many sons to glory, by his death on the cross and, for this reason, he tasted death for every (fill in the blank).

1 Tim. 4:10 is not a parallel passage to anything else that you've quoted here.

To test your understanding of 1 Tim. 4:10, I'd like to ask a couple of simple questions.

1) In what sense is God the Saviour of those who do not believe?

2) What does "specially" denote, in this context?
 
...
1) In what sense is God the Saviour of those who do not believe?

2) What does "specially" denote, in this context?
...
God is Saviour of all men; God saves those who believe, does not save those who do not believe the Saviour.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
1Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
 
God is Saviour of all men; God saves those who believe, does not save those who do not believe the Saviour.

...
You have not even attempted to answer the questions I asked. Was that because you didn't understand them, or wanted to avoid the necessary conclusions? Here they are again and I'll answer them, since you can't or won't.

To test your understanding of 1 Tim. 4:10, I'd like to ask a couple of simple questions.

1) In what sense is God the Saviour of those who do not believe?

2) What does "specially" denote, in this context?

1 Tim. 4:10 (KJV) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1) God is the Saviour of those who do not believe, in the sense that he gives them food, drink, shelter, deliverances from diseases, attacks, disasters, etc.. He is good to the just and the unjust.

2) In the context of 1 Tim. 4:10, "specially" denotes degree (that is also what the Greek word signifies). In other words, believers get a greater degree of salvation than unbelievers. Believers get salvation from sin, guilt and hell, on top of the lesser kinds of salvation that God gives unbelievers.

Words other than "Saviour" are possible translations, in this verse, and that brings out the meaning more clearly for a Christian, since we tend to have blinkers when we think of salvation, making it about salvation from sin only.

1 Tim. 4:9,10 (Darby)
9 The word is faithful and worthy of all acceptation;
10 for, for this we labour and suffer reproach, because we hope in a living God, who is preserver of all men, specially of those that believe.

1 Tim. 4:9,10
(VW)
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance.
10 For to this end we both labor and are reproached, because we trust in the living God, who is the preserver of all men, especially of those who believe.
 
How can one be objective while reading through the lens of Reformation Study Bible, the Confessions of Faith, and TULIP?
Does it not occur to you that many of us (according to one of us, it is 'most' of us) arrived at our conclusions apart from even hearing about TULIP or reading the Confessions or the Reformation Study Bible? When I read your post here, I'm like, "Oh yeah, I've heard of the Reformation Study Bible before." Now I'm curious about what it is like.

How can one be objective while reading ANY English translation?
 
No one has an Excuse to not be Saved, so it's a Fallacy for the Lost to think they have a reason to not Believe. Since they are without Excuse, no one can say "God why did YOU make me this way, a Reprobate??". Since no one can say this, Provisionists should stop assuming Calvinists include Unconditional Election as part of the Saving knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Saying God made us Elect or Reprobate, is the same as saying God made some Vessels for Honor and some for Dishonor. Complaining about God making you a Reprobate violates the Verse that teaches it's wrong to complain about God giving some over to Reprobate Minds they already have...
Reviving this for a simple question. (And I am NOT getting into this on either side)

WHAT DID JOHN CALVIN MEAN WHEN HE SAID

Predestination According to Calvin​

According to John Calvin, predestination is Godā€™s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be ā€œbarred from access toā€ salvation and sentenced to ā€œeternal death (180, 184).ā€ Calvin was careful to distinguish the predestination of individuals from the corporate election of nations such as Israel (185). He argued that an explanation of predestination is only complete when it includes the election of individuals ???

If no one has an excuse to not be saved, seems like Calvin thought differently.
 
Reviving this for a simple question. (And I am NOT getting into this on either side)

WHAT DID JOHN CALVIN MEAN WHEN HE SAID

Predestination According to Calvin​

According to John Calvin, predestination is Godā€™s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be ā€œbarred from access toā€ salvation and sentenced to ā€œeternal death (180, 184).ā€ Calvin was careful to distinguish the predestination of individuals from the corporate election of nations such as Israel (185). He argued that an explanation of predestination is only complete when it includes the election of individuals ???

If no one has an excuse to not be saved, seems like Calvin thought differently.
I'm not Calvin šŸ˜‰

I don't see a Link which can lead me to more Context...

Does your Link have (the Reprobate) in the Quote?
 
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I'm not Calvin šŸ˜‰

I don't see a Link which can lead me to more Context...

Does your Link have (the Reprobate) in the Quote?
Sorry, my error in leaving that out. Yes it does.

 
Sorry, my error in leaving that out. Yes it does.

Thanks, but I can't read it. I suspect it's a Secondary Source though; Calvin probably didn't put (the Reprobate) in Parentheses; in the Original...

Calvinists use your Secondary Sources to find the Original Source, to verify. But it doesn't matter, Jesus is the Propitiation for the World, especially of those who Believe...
 
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