I already pasted the students information that aorist is simple past tense, speaking of an event that took place in the past. Should I paste it again? The change in the condition of Abraham was going from unborn to born, which is why so many scholars (thousands) put that in. The aorist is a simple past tense because it doesn't care when the event took place in the past, it is just talking about a one time completed event that took place in the past.
Why Did God Tell Israel That He is One?
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when that verb is used elsewhere in John it doesn’t suggest the event was completed.
“And now I have told you before [πρὶν] it takes place, so that when it does take place you may believe.”John 14:29, ESV)
We could just as easily replace “it takes place” with “it to become”.
Jesus was speaking of his going to the Father and then returning.
So, before Abraham is to become, I am.
This suggests that Abraham, like the words
Jesus spoke, “I go to the Father and come again”, happen when he comes again. Which was him being raised from the dead, going to the Father, and then returning to show himself.
For Abraham to become, he has to have existed. No one exists before they are born.
Um, one of the definition is to be born. So no, that is not right. It is possible to become, to transition from nothing into something. Hence Jesus was with Shadrach, Meschach and Abednego long before He was born. Jesus existed before He was born. Daniel 3 " 25 He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire [v]without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!” Jesus preincarnate. Also, all the references in the Old Testament about the Angel of The LORD are all Jesus preincarnate.
John 1 "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [b]comprehend it."
"14 And the Word became flesh, and [k]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [l]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
Notice it doesn't say, and the Word was with the Father, and the Word was the Father. It says the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Hence it is fine that it says "the only begotten from the Father."
I did more reserach, and the aorist is dependent on the subject. Since the subject existed long before Jesus' time, it is understood that whatever the verb is is a past tense event, happened once, and it doesn't matter when. Abraham was born. Apparently, from what I was reading, that is how middle voice works.
There is no evidence that Jesus was the Angel of the Lord. It is assumed he was because the Angel was called both Lord and God.
However, God had told Moses that He was sending the Angel in His name. “
God said, “My name is in him”. IOW, the Angel carried the name of the Lord wherever He went. And as He was to lead the people.
When Jesus came, He said that he came in the name of His Father. Therefore, Jesus too carried the name of the Lord.
He is the one Lord to God’s children because He is the only one who carries God’s name in Him.
But Jesus has a God. His God is His Father. That means the Son has a God.
And the Angel knew the true Lord in whose name He was sent.
The one who sent the Angel does not allow any mortal man to see His face. And God’s angels in heaven do always behold the face of the Father.
Now, Jesus has been exalted above all in both heaven and earth. He is exalted over even the Angel who carried God’s name in the O.T.
All sons of God who are made so through Christ, do not worship the Angel as Lord because to them Christ is their one Lord. He is the only one from their kind who has been made Lord over them by God.
But even those who have Christ made as their Lord, know that the Father alone is the One true God, as does Jesus. He said so in John 17
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Mr GLee
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The I am he are the thoughts and words from the father. They worked in the powerless flesh of the Son of man Jesus Some did know Christ the anointing teacher master who worked in the flesh of the Son of man Jesus When he dies that opportunity left.
God is not a Jewish dying man as King of kings . Satan failed in trying to pull that off with as one of the antichrists' (false prophet false apostle Peter in Mathew 16.
All of dying mankind must be born again .Jesus is not ashamed to call us brother and sisters in Christ.
We call no man on earth Holy Father (Pope)
2 Corinthians 5:16King James Version Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
How would a mere man be exalted above the angels? I mean, according to this standard, Jesus didn't even exist prior to His birth. Non-existence, as you say of Abraham, who was also a mere man, a mere mortal. If Jesus is the Son of God, and any person who is the son of a human is a human, the Jesus must be a God, right? Or perhaps John 1 was telling the truth and Jesus is God become flesh.
Hebrews 1 speaks of Christ after being raised from the dead. After he purged our sins and sat down on the right hand of God.
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
For unto which of the angels said he at any time,Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to mea Son?
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
By being the Chief heir of the promised inheritance, Christ has obtained a more excellent name than the angels. Because, to none of the angels had God ever said “thou art My Son, this day (day of his resurrection) I have begotten thee.
Under the saving covenant of faith, apart from the covenant made at Sinai, Christ has the preeminence. Whereas under the covenant made at Sinai the Angel did, of which was just a shadow of the true.
When Christ establishes His kingdom, He will be the Lord and God of Israel over the kingdom and all the earth, which His God has appointed to Him. And also to those who love Him.
I do not believe that Jesus, when born of Mary, had a dual nature because God is his Father.
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Jesus had a dual nature, because He is the Word taken upon itself flesh. The Word is divine, and the flesh is human. Two natures. One version of John says that He pitched His tent among us. That tent was His human nature, His flesh which was provided by Mary. However, that which was in Mary was conceived by the Holy Spirit, according to Gabriel. He was not a simple human.Hebrews 1 speaks of Christ after being raised from the dead. After he purged our sins and sat down on the right hand of God.
Heb 1:4
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time,Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to mea Son?
Heb 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
By being the Chief heir of the promised inheritance, Christ has obtained a more excellent name than the angels. Because, to none of the angels had God ever said “thou art My Son, this day (day of his resurrection) I have begotten thee.
Under the saving covenant of faith, apart from the covenant made at Sinai, Christ has the preeminence. Whereas under the covenant made at Sinai the Angel did, of which was just a shadow of the true.
When Christ establishes His kingdom, He will be the Lord and God of Israel over the kingdom and all the earth, which His God has appointed to Him. And also to those who love Him.
I do not believe that Jesus, when born of Mary, had a dual nature because God is his Father.
Hebrews 1:
"1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 [a]in these last days has spoken to us [b]in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the [c]world. 3 [d]And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and [e]upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they."
There is all you need to see Jesus' divinity.
6 And [f]when He again brings the firstborn into [g]the world, He says,
“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
---I thought all worship was God's and God's alone?---
7 And of the angels He says,
“Who makes His angels winds,
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
8 But of the Son He says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, [gasp... it is right there. Of the Son the Father says, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.]
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of [h]His kingdom.
9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”
10 And,
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will become old like a garment,
12 And like a mantle You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”
Psalm 8:
"3 When I [c]consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have [d]ordained;
4 What is man that You [e]take thought of him,
And the son of man that You care for him?
5 Yet You have made him a little lower than [f]God, [Note: In the Hebrew it is Elohim, which is actually angels, as Hebrews 1:4 says]
And You crown him with glory and majesty!
6 You make him to rule over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,
This is how difficult it is to understand the trinity. John 1 states that Jesus created everything, except Genesis 1 says that God did. God, in Genesis 1 spoke in the plural. So, logically, that would make Jesus God, as John 1 says. Psalm 8 says that the heavens are the work of God's fingers, but Hebrews says that that was Jesus with the heavens being the work of His hands. Hebrews agrees with John that everything was created with/through Jesus.
God is one BEING, made up of three coexisting/coeternal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They have titles, through which they have different roles. However, beyond what we can understand since we have no shared common experience, each person is 100% God. The Father is 100% God, the Son is 100% God, and the Holy Spirit is 100% God. Three persons, one Being, for, as God clearly told the Israelites, The Lord your God is One. (He is. Even the trinitarians believe that). One being. One purpose.
Consider humanity. Are we all the same? Yes. We are all 100% human. There is no human on Earth that isn't human. Are we all the same? No. That guy is a politician, that guy a mason, that guy a carpenter, etc. We are not the same... but we are. Are we all the same in power/position. Consider it with a father and a son. Is the son on same level as the father? No. Does that make the son any less human? Of course not.
If Jesus is the Son of God, then as a child is human as their father is human, then that would make Jesus God as the Father is God, or, if you aren't trinitarian, more than one God. There is no way around it. Jesus said "I and the Father am One." (Another thing the religious leaders weren't too happy with.)
John 10
"30 I and the Father are [a]one.”
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may [b]know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”
How can the Father be in Jesus, and Jesus also in the Father? I though the Father was above Jesus? The Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying. There was no doubt in their mind that Jesus was saying that He is God. However, He was also saying that the Father is God. "I and the Father am one." "I the Lord your God am one."
Deutoronomy 6 "4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One."
I replied to you in another post regarding John’s prologue. I said :
speaking of John’s prologue. John has to be speaking of the Messiah of whom he was expecting to come and not who had always existed. The one whom he expects to come is called the Word of God. This becomes evident when John says that “in him was life and the life was the light of men”. This is the gospel message. That life would come through Jesus. However, in order for that life to come through Jesus, that life had to be first given to him or else no one else could receive it. John says elsewhere that the life that the Father has in Himself, He has given to the son also to have that same life..so, when the Father gave the son life, it was the life that the son could give to others if he first gave his own life. The expectation of whom John speaks comes to reality when the son is born, dies and is raised again from the dead. Now the gospel message can be fulfilled because the life given to Jesus is the same life the Father has which has given life to all of creation
@TMSO
I’ll try to simplify.
The life that the Father has within Himself is the life He gives to all other life. Life comes from Him. By it He created all life.
John is saying that when the Word is made flesh, that same life that is with the Father becomes the same life within the Son. The son now has the power to give life.
But that life was given to the Son by the Father after the birth of His son.
John is simply explaining in his prologue who he is expecting to come.
I’ll try to simplify.
The life that the Father has within Himself is the life He gives to all other life. Life comes from Him. By it He created all life.
John is saying that when the Word is made flesh, that same life that is with the Father becomes the same life within the Son. The son now has the power to give life.
But that life was given to the Son by the Father after the birth of His son.
John is simply explaining in his prologue who he is expecting to come.
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@TMSO
The Eternal Word
Jhn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2
He was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Jhn 1:4
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5
And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[fn] it.
That is who is to come when Jesus is born. All things were made through Him because the life that is with the Father comes through His Son. Because it is the same life-giving power by which the Father creates all things.
When Jesus is raised from the dead he is called a life-giving spirit
1Co 15:45
And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”[fn] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
The Eternal Word
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[fn] it.
That is who is to come when Jesus is born. All things were made through Him because the life that is with the Father comes through His Son. Because it is the same life-giving power by which the Father creates all things.
When Jesus is raised from the dead he is called a life-giving spirit
1Co 15:45
And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”[fn] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
The Word of Life is Jesus. The Life is Jesus.
In the beginning was the Life, and the Life was with God, and the Life was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made through Him(the Life), and without Him nothing……
In Him was Life, and the Life was the light of men.
And the Life was made flesh.
Jesus is born that Life that was with God and was God.
The same Life with which God created all life comes through the Life that is Jesus.
Jhn 5:26
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
In the beginning was the Life, and the Life was with God, and the Life was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made through Him(the Life), and without Him nothing……
In Him was Life, and the Life was the light of men.
And the Life was made flesh.
Jesus is born that Life that was with God and was God.
The same Life with which God created all life comes through the Life that is Jesus.
Jhn 5:26
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
In other words, Jesus didn't create everything even though we have so many places that say He did. You like to change a lot of things. John is not speaking for Himself. The Bible is inspired, the very Word of God. He wrote what God had Him write. If Jesus didn't have life, He didn't always exist. Or are you saying the Father Himself is not alive? What you are not noticing is that John specifically mentions the Father and not God. Why? Why isn't it God who gave the life to the Son of God? Why is it always the Father?
Do I need to repeat every time God had the author write that everything was created by Jesus, and without Jesus nothing was created? I think He looked forward in time and saw you.
John says the world was made by him because the same life-giving Spirit of the Father by which He created the world was give to and dwells in Christ. Christ became that same life-giving Spirit.
It doesn't say that. Read it again. Or understand that you just said that God created another God.
I already posted the text. 1 Cor 15:45 and John 5:26
Christ became e a life-giving Spirit after being raised from the dead. He couldn’t give eternal life until he first received it.
The life the Father has in Himself to create life was given to the Son.
John is pointing this out when he says the world was made by him. As a way of introduction to the Son being born into the world.
The world was made by God, but John says that without Jesus the world was not created. John is telling us that Jesus is God in human flesh. 100% God man. He introduces Christ as the logos who not only was with God always, but IS GOD. And then He says that this logos that is God, took upon Himself flesh and dwelt among us. God becoming man. This is why Jesus is the perfect arbiter, the perfect mediator between God and man. He is both. Living on Earth, he experienced everything in the world as we experience it. Right down to experiencing the grief that death brings.
John was telling us exactly who Jesus is. It is impossible to fully comprehend, because we, as humans, have no shared experience of God becoming a man. So all we have is what God has revealed in scripture.
It doesn’t tell us the Word took upon Himself flesh, but that the Word actually became flesh.
To say that the Word took upon Himself flesh would mean the Father took upon Himself flesh.
What the Word was became flesh.
To see Jesus was not to see the Word who took upon flesh (unless we say to see Jesus was to see the Father) but to see what the Word was as flesh. Totally and completely.
There is no union of natures.
If we think of the Word as a name, then It would be another name of the Father that Jesus goes by.
If the Word was God, and the Word becomes flesh, then the man Jesus becomes God by that name.
This is why I say John’s prologue is an introduction to Jesus as becoming the Word and what it means. it means he is the Word of life. Just as the Father is the Word of life because that life is with Him.
If the Word was the life that was with the Father and was the Father, then that Word is manifest through His Son. The Son becomes as the Father by the Word of life coming through him.
He shall be called Everlasting Father, because He becomes the Word that was the Father.
If all things are created by the Father, by His Word, and Jesus takes upon Himself that name, then the creation of all can be attributed to Jesus by that name.
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Having read what someone said about what John 1 says in the Greek... no.
If he is to be called the Word of God, then all that can be applied to the Word can be applied to him. I believe he is given that name. As if God had said “you shall call his name the Word of God”.
