Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?

[sawdust]

No, I wanted to know if it was because of two specified reasons. The question asked has not been answered and I'm not giving you another opportunity.

You are trolling. I am not interested.

Well that's good because I gave you an answer to your two questions back in post #255. I won't have to repeat myself now.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The question I have God gave the green light to have man fall?

Obviously. If He hadn't, then it would have been impossible.

 

[makesends]

Obviously. If He hadn't, then it would have been impossible.

It is more than a green light. This is not a deistic proposition, where God is only allowing what is going to happen apart from his causation; he is intimately involved in the motion of every smallest particle. It is in him that we have our being.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

It is more than a green light. This is not a deistic proposition, where God is only allowing what is going to happen apart from his causation; he is intimately involved in the motion of every smallest particle. It is in him that we have our being.

POINT???

 

[sawdust]

It is more than a green light. This is not a deistic proposition, where God is only allowing what is going to happen apart from his causation; he is intimately involved in the motion of every smallest particle. It is in him that we have our being.

Are you suggesting God is responsible for causing evil and if so, how is He responsible?

 

[makesends]

Are you suggesting God is responsible for causing evil and if so, how is He responsible?

Your questions suggests, though you did not mean for it to, that the word, "responsible", can take different meanings/ uses.

But, I'm not suggesting. I'm outright saying that God caused that there be evil (by which I mean, sin). But the evil that he set up for is done by us, and by Satan and his minions.

If you are asking about "evil" as in hard things, suffering, disaster and the like, yes, God also causes that, whether directly or by means.

 

[makesends]

GeneZ said:
The question I have God gave the green light to have man fall?

Bob Carabbio said:
Obviously. If He hadn't, then it would have been impossible.

makesends said:
It is more than a green light. This is not a deistic proposition, where God is only allowing what is going to happen apart from his causation; he is intimately involved in the motion of every smallest particle. It is in him that we have our being.

POINT???

It sounded like you agreed with @GeneZ 's representation of the way of things. God doesn't just give the green light to willed agents, and then sit back and watch whatever might come to pass. He CAUSES it to happen, BY USE OF willed agents.

God didn't just give a green light for man to fall. He MEANT for man to fall. Otherwise God's purpose in creation would not be accomplished.

 

[sawdust]

Your questions suggests, though you did not mean for it to, that the word, "responsible", can take different meanings/ uses.

But, I'm not suggesting. I'm outright saying that God caused that there be evil (by which I mean, sin). But the evil that he set up for is done by us, and by Satan and his minions.

If you are asking about "evil" as in hard things, suffering, disaster and the like, yes, God also causes that, whether directly or by means.

How did He cause it? Let's be specific. How did he cause Adam to sin in the first instance?

And responsible is responsible. It doesn't have different meanings, it has different applications/degrees.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

GeneZ said:
The question I have God gave the green light to have man fall?

Bob Carabbio said:
Obviously. If He hadn't, then it would have been impossible.

makesends said:
It is more than a green light. This is not a deistic proposition, where God is only allowing what is going to happen apart from his causation; he is intimately involved in the motion of every smallest particle. It is in him that we have our being.

It sounded like you agreed with @GeneZ 's representation of the way of things. God doesn't just give the green light to willed agents, and then sit back and watch whatever might come to pass. He CAUSES it to happen, BY USE OF willed agents.

God didn't just give a green light for man to fall. He MEANT for man to fall. Otherwise God's purpose in creation would not be accomplished.

Word games. It's for sure that God KNEW that man would "fall" (since the plan of salvation was already in place before the creation).
As to the "WHY" issue, I'll ask that question later (If I even have to when I KNOW even as I am Known - I Cor 13:12).

 

[makesends]

How did He cause it? Let's be specific. How did he cause Adam to sin in the first instance?

1. By Creating, and that, not by lack of cognition concerning the results of his creation: The serpent, Adam, Eve, Eden, The tree of the knowledge of good and evil, And all other things that came to bear on Adam's decision.
2. By Creating, or producing, all other things related to his reasons for creating Adam, etc. And in particular, for his plan of redemption, without which Adam's sin was not necessary.
3. By Orchestrating events leading up to the decision
4. By the whole matter of Satan's rebellion
5. By the construct of Adam's mind, not to mention Eve's, and the interplay of them both
6. By the construct of the Serpent's mind
7. By being sovereign over all fact.

And responsible is responsible. It doesn't have different meanings, it has different applications/degrees.

Even definitions are related to usage; and meaning, even moreso. Call it application if you want, the fact is that what one means by something depends on what they are using it to mean. I expect you to say that if I consider God "responsible" for [the existence of] sin, that he is therefore to blame, but that is not what I mean at all, if I say God is responsible for it. God is to be credited for his decree and causation, and that includes the fact of sin —he is not responsible for it in the sense you want it to mean if I say he is responsible for it. The fact that there is sin, is to God's credit. He is not to blame for sin, though he caused that it be.

 

[GeneZ]

makesends said:
It is more than a green light. This is not a deistic proposition, where God is only allowing what is going to happen apart from his causation; he is intimately involved in the motion of every smallest particle. It is in him that we have our being.

Sounds like you are saying God caused Satan to fall and was involved in making him fall....

 

[makesends]

Sounds like you are saying God caused Satan to fall and was involved in making him fall....

Yes. There is nothing that happens but by God's decree (plan). But he uses means to accomplish it.

 

[GeneZ]

Yes. There is nothing that happens but by God's decree (plan). But he uses means to accomplish it.

Are you then saying God wanted Satan to fall?

On the other hand. God's decree is declaring what is to be, will be.

In other words?

God is not going to (secretly and preemptively) redo what was to be in order to produce a different outcome as to make Himself look good.

 

[makesends]

Are you then saying God wanted Satan to fall?

On the other hand. God's decree is declaring what is to be, will be.

In other words?

God is not going to (secretly and preemptively) redo what was to be in order to produce a different outcome as to make Himself look good.

Wanted? What do you mean by that? God is not like us. He lacks nothing. But if your question is whether God intended for Satan to fall, yes. it was no accident.

 

[GeneZ]

Wanted? What do you mean by that? God is not like us. He lacks nothing. But if your question is whether God intended for Satan to fall, yes. it was no accident.

If God intended Satan to fall?

Then God created Satan to fall.
Satan had no choice.

Is that what you intended to say?

 

[makesends]

If God intended Satan to fall?

Then God created Satan to fall.
Satan had no choice.

Is that what you intended to say?

You are like the Arminians represented here.

No, I am not saying that Satan had no choice; and I'm certainly not saying, nor implying, that we have no choice. God accomplishes his decree by —among other means— USING our choices. Of course we have a choice!

 

[GeneZ]

You are like the Arminians represented here.

No, I am not saying that Satan had no choice; and I'm certainly not saying, nor implying, that we have no choice. God accomplishes his decree by —among other means— USING our choices. Of course we have a choice!

Thanks for removing the ambiguity....

I have a feeling what you have been saying can be said in a much simpler way.

Einstein once stated that genius has the gift of making the complex into something simple.

“Genius is making complex ideas simple, not making simple ideas complex.”

 

[makesends]

Thanks for removing the ambiguity....

I have a feeling what you have been saying can be said in a much simpler way.

Einstein once stated that genius has the gift of making the complex into something simple.

“Genius is making complex ideas simple, not making simple ideas complex.”

I'm thinking the ambiguity was only in your mind.

 

[sawdust]

I'm thinking the ambiguity was only in your mind.

No, it wasn't. I was wondering just as much myself.

 

[GeneZ]

I'm thinking the ambiguity was only in your mind.

Odd... I seem to be sensing some resentment.