Who has been elected? Individuals or a group (Israel)?

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

This discussion comes from the topic What Type of Calvinist am I? but it was off-topic there, so let's have a separate space for this.

@David1701 said:

Limited Atonement (better: "Definite Atonement") necessitates Preservation/Perseverance of the Saints, otherwise you could have the anomaly of people whose sins have been atoned for, being punished for those same sins, in hell.

If one holds to the mis-understanding that the atonement is for pre-selected individuals, that would be true.

But I believe that the Atonement was for a group - Israel.

Perseverance isn't required because group membership is fluid. One can leave the group, in which case they may not be saved. Yet the atonement is not universal, but only for a selected group.

-Jarrod

 

[3 Resurrections]

Perseverance isn't required because group membership is fluid. One can leave the group, in which case they may not be saved

Salvation cannot be compared to something like a club membership which can be abandoned at the discretion of those who join it. Salvation is equated with our adoption as children of God. This is not like a foster home arrangement, which can shunt the children from one foster set of parents to another home. It is an adoption performed by God who does not rescind His adoption of us as His children.

Jesus in John 7:38-39 compared salvation for those who believe to a spring of "living water" implanted within us by the Holy Spirit. Jesus chose this particular comparison on purpose. A spring of living water cannot dry up, as a well dug by a man might eventually dry up (like the "wells without water" in 2 Peter 2:17).

A spring of "living water" comes from an inexhaustible source deep within the earth. It's flow is not dependent upon the conduit through which it flows. In the same manner, our salvation by adoption implants within us an inexhaustible flow of "living water" of the Holy Spirit that is not dependent upon us, the conduit, for its unending supply of power. We are not capable of shutting off this flow, once it is established. Neither can we leave it, since it has been implanted within us.

We are capable of "grieving the Spirit" by our actions, but we cannot escape that Holy Spirit within which has sealed our adoption.

 

[Eleanor]

This discussion comes from the topic What Type of Calvinist am I? but it was off-topic there, so let's have a separate space for this.

@David1701 said:


If one holds to the mis-understanding that the atonement is for pre-selected individuals, that would be true.

But I believe that the Atonement was for a group - Israel.

Perseverance isn't required because group membership is fluid. One can leave the group, in which case they may not be saved. Yet the atonement is not universal, but only for a selected group.

-Jarrod

Election is to many different things, not just salvation.

Jacob was elected to be the father of God's people.

Moses was elected to deliver Israel from bondage in Egypt.

Pharaoh was elected to show forth God's power and glory.

Paul was elected to take the gospel to the Gentiles, at much cost to him.

However, election to salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on one's sin, only through faith in Jesus Christ and his atoning work (Eph 2:8-9), is by individual only.

 

[John Bauer]

Perseverance isn't required because group membership is fluid.

On that view, what Jesus said no longer makes sense: "Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never send away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. Now this is the will of the one who sent me—that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day" (John 6:37-39).

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Salvation cannot be compared to something like a club membership which can be abandoned at the discretion of those who join it. Salvation is equated with our adoption as children of God. This is not like a foster home arrangement, which can shunt the children from one foster set of parents to another home. It is an adoption performed by God who does not rescind His adoption of us as His children.

Jesus in John 7:38-39 compared salvation for those who believe to a spring of "living water" implanted within us by the Holy Spirit. Jesus chose this particular comparison on purpose. A spring of living water cannot dry up, as a well dug by a man might eventually dry up (like the "wells without water" in 2 Peter 2:17).

A spring of "living water" comes from an inexhaustible source deep within the earth. It's flow is not dependent upon the conduit through which it flows. In the same manner, our salvation by adoption implants within us an inexhaustible flow of "living water" of the Holy Spirit that is not dependent upon us, the conduit, for its unending supply of power. We are not capable of shutting off this flow, once it is established. Neither can we leave it, since it has been implanted within us.

We are capable of "grieving the Spirit" by our actions, but we cannot escape that Holy Spirit within which has sealed our adoption.

Your point is taken, but I haven't claimed that it is anything less than adoption.

Adoption IS the means by which people are added to Israel. You've hit the nail on the head.

As for those who are removed, I am not sure exactly how that mechanism works, but it is manifest that there are some branches that have been broken off. I will stick with what I said - membership in the tribe, Israel, is somewhat fluid.

-Jarrod

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

On that view, what Jesus said no longer makes sense: "Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never send away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. Now this is the will of the one who sent me—that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day" (John 6:37-39).

Is Jesus talking about all the future persons that will ever exist in that chapter? Probably not. If he's talking about the persons who have gone before, the statement still makes sense.

 

[John Bauer]

Is Jesus talking about all the future persons that will ever exist in that chapter? Probably not.

Make an argument for that.

If he's talking about the persons who have gone before, the statement still makes sense.

If that were the case, the tense of these English translations are all wrong. It should have been translated, "Everyone whom the Father gave me came to me, and the one who came to me I did not send away." Make an argument for why you're correct and these translators are wrong.

 

[Ladodgers6]

This discussion comes from the topic What Type of Calvinist am I? but it was off-topic there, so let's have a separate space for this.

@David1701 said:


If one holds to the mis-understanding that the atonement is for pre-selected individuals, that would be true.

But I believe that the Atonement was for a group - Israel.

Perseverance isn't required because group membership is fluid. One can leave the group, in which case they may not be saved. Yet the atonement is not universal, but only for a selected group.

-Jarrod

Revelation 7: 9 After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.

 

[His clay]

This discussion comes from the topic What Type of Calvinist am I? but it was off-topic there, so let's have a separate space for this.

@David1701 said:


If one holds to the mis-understanding that the atonement is for pre-selected individuals, that would be true.

But I believe that the Atonement was for a group - Israel.

Perseverance isn't required because group membership is fluid. One can leave the group, in which case they may not be saved. Yet the atonement is not universal, but only for a selected group.

-Jarrod

There's no scripture to back up the words of the opening post's author.

 

[brightfame52]

Who has been elected? Individuals or a group (Israel)?​

Both, Gods elect are a group of Individuals of all ethnicities called Israel, the Israel of God Gal 6

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

That many described here is Israel !

 

[David1701]

This discussion comes from the topic What Type of Calvinist am I? but it was off-topic there, so let's have a separate space for this.

@David1701 said:


If one holds to the mis-understanding that the atonement is for pre-selected individuals, that would be true.

But I believe that the Atonement was for a group - Israel.

Perseverance isn't required because group membership is fluid. One can leave the group, in which case they may not be saved. Yet the atonement is not universal, but only for a selected group.

-Jarrod

Feel free to present some evidence, without eisegesis or cherry picking...

 

[atpollard]

But I believe that the Atonement was for a group - Israel.

Atonement WAS for a group, and there is a sense in which that group IS "Israel" ... however:

1. Israel is not and has never really been the biological descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
   • [Gen 18:18 NASB20] 18 since Abraham will certainly become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed?
   • [Gen 22:18 NASB20] 18 "And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."
   • [Gen 26:4 NASB20] 4 "I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed,
   • [Mal 3:12 NASB20] 12 "All the nations will call you blessed, for you will be a delightful land," says the LORD of armies.
   • Has this EVER applied to the "stiff necked and rebellious biological "Nation" that was unfaithful to God from the first to the last?
2. Israel is the "Spiritual Israel", not the Physical Israel:
   • [Rom 2:25-29 NASB20] 25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter [of the Law] and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.
   • [Rom 4:13-25 NASB20] 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, then faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written: "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [that is,] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that do not exist. 18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE." 19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now [as good as] dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; 20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what [God] had promised, He was able also to perform. 22 Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 23 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, 24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, to [us] who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 [He] who was delivered over because of our wrongdoings, and was raised because of our justification.
   • Has this not ALWAYS been the "remnant" that God has reserved for Himself ... Jews (Abraham, Moses, David) and Gentiles (Rahab, Ruth, Balaam).

Thus the "group" for whom He atoned were those "In Christ".​

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Make an argument for that.

If that were the case, the tense of these English translations are all wrong. It should have been translated, "Everyone whom the Father gave me came to me, and the one who came to me I did not send away." Make an argument for why you're correct and these translators are wrong.

I don't think the translators are wrong. In v.27 they have present tense "God gives" and future tense "shall come" but if you look 2 verses later the giving has already been completed:

Now this is the will of the one who sent me—that I should not lose one person of every one he has given (perfect-tense) me, but raise them all up at the last day" (John 6:37-39).

Consider the context. In John 6, Jesus is addressing a real group of people in real time. All the subjunctives throughout the chapter indicate that he is talking about them, and the possibility of their salvation. If only they might believe...

Where is says "all" and "every one" we should understand it as "all of you" and "every one of you" rather than "all persons throughout history past and present." Even if it refers to the future, it is the very near future - by the time the crowd goes home the opportunity has passed.

-Jarrod

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

There's no scripture to back up the words of the opening post's author.

Ridiculous.

The whole of the Old Testament is the story of a special, chosen, elected people - Israel.

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Both, Gods elect are a group of Individuals of all ethnicities called Israel, the Israel of God Gal 6

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

That many described here is Israel !

Certainly people of many ethnicities are adopted into Israel. But that adoption isn't contingent on each of those people being individually elected by God beforehand. It's contingent on belief.

Even in the verse you quoted it can be seen - as many as walk according to this rule.

-Jarrod

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Atonement WAS for a group, and there is a sense in which that group IS "Israel" ... however:

1. Israel is not and has never really been the biological descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
   • [Gen 18:18 NASB20] 18 since Abraham will certainly become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed?
   • [Gen 22:18 NASB20] 18 "And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."
   • [Gen 26:4 NASB20] 4 "I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed,
   • [Mal 3:12 NASB20] 12 "All the nations will call you blessed, for you will be a delightful land," says the LORD of armies.
   • Has this EVER applied to the "stiff necked and rebellious biological "Nation" that was unfaithful to God from the first to the last?

Your point is well-received. I might revise the wording a bit... the true Israel - those who believed - was a small minority of those within the nation called Israel in the Old Testament - those who had not bowed the knee to Baal.

Also, that national Israel was certainly of mixed-race; they weren't all necessarily Abraham's progeny. Yet, as far as I can see, the adoption of the "nations" to Abraham was not fulfilled until Jesus' day. This actually seems to be one of the primary purposes of Jesus' ministry - the re-establishment of Israel through the mechanism of adoption.

1. Israel is the "Spiritual Israel", not the Physical Israel:
   • [Rom 2:25-29 NASB20] 25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter [of the Law] and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.
   • [Rom 4:13-25 NASB20] 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, then faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written: "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [that is,] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that do not exist. 18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE." 19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now [as good as] dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; 20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what [God] had promised, He was able also to perform. 22 Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 23 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, 24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, to [us] who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 [He] who was delivered over because of our wrongdoings, and was raised because of our justification.
   • Has this not ALWAYS been the "remnant" that God has reserved for Himself ... Jews (Abraham, Moses, David) and Gentiles (Rahab, Ruth, Balaam).

Yes. The word "Israel" literally means "ruled of God" and those who aren't... well, aren't.

But as for those who are, adoption is still necessary. The covenant is with Abraham and his Seed, and one has no standing to participate in the covenant without the adoption.

-Jarrod

P.S. Balaam? He isn't exactly a righteous figure in Numbers.

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Feel free to present some evidence, without eisegesis or cherry picking...

This isn't a lecture, it's a conversation. Tbh you sort of started it, so I thought you might have something to say. No?

 

[brightfame52]

Certainly people of many ethnicities are adopted into Israel. But that adoption isn't contingent on each of those people being individually elected by God beforehand. It's contingent on belief.

Even in the verse you quoted it can be seen - as many as walk according to this rule.

-Jarrod

Thats false, scripture doesnt say that.

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Thats false, scripture doesnt say that.

On the contrary, it says it quite a bit. Search for "may believe" and "might believe" and you'll find plenty of results. Here's a good one:

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. John 20:31

Not to mention it was in the verse that you posted in this thread.

 

[David1701]

This isn't a lecture, it's a conversation. Tbh you sort of started it, so I thought you might have something to say. No?

I'll respond to whatever evidence you provide.