Who are they, and where have they come from?

[Hazelelponi]

Yes good advice

My focus has been showing that the great tribulation is on the church and the wrath of God is on the unsaved.

I have enjoyed your points.

 

[Paul]

Rev 16:16 seems to put a time stamp on it.. 16And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon....

Do you see this as pre-1000 year reign or post-1000 year reign?

That day is the start of the 1000 years. Jesus ends all tribulation at His 2nd coming at the completion of the bowl judgments.
The 1000 years begins at the resurrection on the last day.
Revelation 20:4

Just as Paul wrote 2thess2
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming

 

[Josheb]

So, when trying to understand who they are it's important to determine what the great tribulation is.....But, you deem that to be off topic.

No, it is not necessary to determine what is the great tribulation to answer the question asked in the title of this op. The reason knowing its nature is unnecessary to answer the question asked is because whatever it may be scripture explicitly answers the question.

I have been. My bible says they came out of the GREAT TRIBULATION....what does your bible say?

That question has already been answered.

My bible says they came out of the GREAT TRIBULATION.

Do you accept and believe what that verse (Rev. 7:14) states?

Rev 16:16 seems to put a time stamp on it.. 16And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon....

Do you see this as pre-1000 year reign or post-1000 year reign?

Red herring. Whatever the great tribulation may or may not be, Rev. 7:14 explicitly states the people in that verse came through the great tribulation. Address scripture's answer to the title's inquiry before moving on to some other matter!


Do you accept what Rev/ 7:14 states? Do you acknowledge those who've washed their robes in Christ's blood come through the great tribulation?

 

[CrowCross]

Do you accept what Rev/ 7:14 states? Do you acknowledge those who've washed their robes in Christ's blood come through the great tribulation?

Of course...that's what the verse states.

Do you accept what Matt 24:21 States?
"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unseen from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again".

 

[Josheb]

That day is the start of the 1000 years. Jesus ends all tribulation at His 2nd coming at the completion of the bowl judgments.
The 1000 years begins at the resurrection on the last day.
Revelation 20:4

Just as Paul wrote 2thess2
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming

Before introducing different verses or broaching new topics, could you help us keep the conversation focused on Rev. 7:14's identification of "who they are," as the title of this op asks? Thx

 

[Paul]

Before introducing different verses or broaching new topics, could you help us keep the conversation focused on Rev. 7:14's identification of "who they are," as the title of this op asks? Thx

No problem.

 

[Josheb]

Of course...that's what the verse states.

Then what does that mean relative to the belief Christians do not go through the great tribulation? Rev. 7:14 indicates the exact opposite position.

Do you accept what Matt 24:21 States?
"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unseen from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again".

First, you already know my answer to that question because I have posted it multiple times directly to you here in this thread and in multiple others. Second, whatever my answer may or may not be you're digressing, and digressing before you've addressed the specifics of Rev. 7:14.


Rev. 7:14 explicitly states the identity of the people of whom it speaks are those who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and come out of the great tribulation. Questions specifically relevant to that verse might be, "Are the people who've washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb Christians?" "Is it possible to wash one's robes in Christ's blood and not be a Christian?" If not, then Christians are explicitly stated to have come through the great tribulation. How can Christians come through the great tribulation if no Christians go through the great tribulation, as the pre-tribulation rapture teaches? Those are questions salient to this op's inquiry. These are questions that do not require us to abandon the Rev. 7:14 text prematurely.


What does what the verse states mean relative to the belief Christians do not go through the great tribulation?


Take your time. Think it through. I have to go but I'll check back this afternoon.

 

[Marty]

I have enjoyed your points.

Thanks for the encouragement

 

[Arial]

I have been. My bible says they came out of the GREAT TRIBULATION....what does your bible say?

So, when trying to understand who they are it's important to determine what the great tribulation is.....But, you deem that to be off topic.

If this is what you are after, then the title of the OP and the questions asked is misleading. As @Josheb and @Marty said, Rev 7:14-17 answers the question of who they are.

It is completely unecessary to determine what the great tribulation is in order to know who they are. Now, you may have a question as to what the great tribulation is ---or just feel the need to tell everyone what it is and argue about it in yet another thread. But your OP is not really about what the title states but the tribulation. And you are not asking a question about what it is, because you consider that you already know.

And to voice your opinion, or give your understanding is one thing, and perfectly fine, but you consider that you already know what it is, and even though you have told us a gazillion times, want to tell us again. But you have nothing to support your view except other specific isolated verses that you also interpret to fit your idea.

Here is an alternate view that involves just three little words, "the" and "a" and "out"

In all that you have said, you stress THE great tribulation. Your version would have slightly more precedent if it said, "out of A Great Tribulation". That could categorize it as a specific event. The great tribulation is non specific and could easily apply to an unspecified amount of time that contained tribulation. That could apply to from the fall of Adam to Christ's second advent, as there has been nothing but tribulation since that fall. Nothing works right according to the order of creation. Or, it could mean the time period between the two advents of Christ as it is the saints of all time that we are seeing in Rev 7, as that is the time period when the redeemed of all nations exist, but it would necessitate the redeemed being present during this period of tribulation.

What about "out of"? I suspect you are using that expression as proof of a pre-trib rapture, as though that is the only possible thing "out of" could mean. But look at what they "went out of" "to".

Rev 7:16-17 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.

They came out of the tribulations associated with this fallen world and the presence of evil, to an earth (the home he created for man to dwell in). and it is echoed in Rev 21: 1-7.

 

[CrowCross]

Then what does that mean relative to the belief Christians do not go through the great tribulation? Rev. 7:14 indicates the exact opposite position.

First, you already know my answer to that question because I have posted it multiple times directly to you here in this thread and in multiple others. Second, whatever my answer may or may not be you're digressing, and digressing before you've addressed the specifics of Rev. 7:14.


Rev. 7:14 explicitly states the identity of the people of whom it speaks are those who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and come out of the great tribulation. Questions specifically relevant to that verse might be, "Are the people who've washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb Christians?" "Is it possible to wash one's robes in Christ's blood and not be a Christian?" If not, then Christians are explicitly stated to have come through the great tribulation. How can Christians come through the great tribulation if no Christians go through the great tribulation, as the pre-tribulation rapture teaches? Those are questions salient to this op's inquiry. These are questions that do not require us to abandon the Rev. 7:14 text prematurely.


What does what the verse states mean relative to the belief Christians do not go through the great tribulation?


Take your time. Think it through. I have to go but I'll check back this afternoon.

My great grand-ma may have went through the depression...but she most certainly didn't go through the great tribulation.

Perhaps you can take the time and show all of us just what the great tribulation was....What the world has never seen nor will ever see again????

 

[Paul]

Of course...that's what the verse states.

Do you accept what Matt 24:21 States?
"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unseen from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again".

Coming out of it or before it?
From the time of Christ up unto this very day the spirits of the saints found in heaven is the direct result of the death of the body.

It's clear to me the verse you show is the spirits of the saints who have come out, not before, the great tribulation. The cause is not given.

 

[XrzrX]

@CrowCross is clearly a full Futurist, I am curious @Marty if you consider yourself Full Preterist or Partial?

 

[Marty]

@CrowCross is clearly a full Futurist, I am curious @Marty if you consider yourself Full Preterist or Partial?

A partial preterist with a side of amill how about yourself?

 

[XrzrX]

A partial preterist with a side of amill how about yourself?

I'd have to say "What he said" haha! Yeah, sounds about right.

 

[XrzrX]

My great grand-ma may have went through the depression...but she most certainly didn't go through the great tribulation.

Perhaps you can take the time and show all of us just what the great tribulation was....What the world has never seen nor will ever see again????

If I could Crow, get your take on some verse here.. "For I know that after my death you will act corruptly and turn away from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the last days.." Deut 31:29 and would you consider this as prophesy concerning "End Day/Times"?

 

[Josheb]

It is completely unecessary to determine what the great tribulation is in order to know who they are.

 

[Josheb]

My great grand-ma may have went through the depression...but she most certainly didn't go through the great tribulation. Perhaps you can take the time and show all of us just what the great tribulation was....What the world has never seen nor will ever see again????

Or..... I could ignore Post #90 because it is one more in a growing number of posts that avoid the matter of Rev. 7:14 and obfuscates all attempts at any relevant discussion regarding what that verse means for Christian eschatology. Let's try it again: Rev. 7:14 identifies the people in question as those who washed their robes in Christ's blood and came through the great tribulation. You stated you accept and believe that post as written. The question, then, is...

What does what the verse states mean relative to the belief Christians do not go through the great tribulation?

Rev.7:14 states nothing about the attributes of the tribulation, and Rev. 7:14 is the verse we're discussing. However, for the sake of good will, consensus building with scripture, and fellowship in Christ, I will answer the question about the nature of the tribulation if and when an op is dedicated to that subject alone...... right after I read an actual answer to the specific op-relevant question just asked.

What does what the verse states mean relative to the belief Christians do not go through the great tribulation?

 

[CrowCross]

Or..... I could ignore Post #90 because it is one more in a growing number of posts that avoid the matter of Rev. 7:14 and obfuscates all attempts at any relevant discussion regarding what that verse means for Christian eschatology. Let's try it again: Rev. 7:14 identifies the people in question as those who washed their robes in Christ's blood and came through the great tribulation. You stated you accept and believe that post as written. The question, then, is...

What does what the verse states mean relative to the belief Christians do not go through the great tribulation?

Rev.7:14 states nothing about the attributes of the tribulation, and Rev. 7:14 is the verse we're discussing. However, for the sake of good will, consensus building with scripture, and fellowship in Christ, I will answer the question about the nature of the tribulation if and when an op is dedicated to that subject alone...... right after I read an actual answer to the specific op-relevant question just asked.

What does what the verse states mean relative to the belief Christians do not go through the great tribulation?

I have seen other post that say....."It is completely unecessary to determine what the great tribulation is in order to know who they are."...which I disagree with.

You post as if you know but have not elaborated.

Once again we know the great tribulation hasn't happened yet...simply from what Jesus said. That is, it's a time like we have never see before or will see agaun. But, heck, some say knowing what it is, is unecessary to know what it is and when it is.

 

[CrowCross]

If I could Crow, get your take on some verse here.. "For I know that after my death you will act corruptly and turn away from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the last days.." Deut 31:29 and would you consider this as prophesy concerning "End Day/Times"?

Yes, i would consider it as future prophecy.

Some say it was the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD....which we know the Jews have seen more severe tribulation prior to the event and after the event...the holocost is an example.

 

[Arial]

Some say it was the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD....which we know the Jews have seen more severe tribulation prior to the event and after the event...the holocost is an example.

But it wasn't just the physical destruction of the temple or the loss of life that took place in 70 a.d.. What is the most terrible thing you can imagine? The absolute worst. Well, I certainly can't speak for you, but for me it would be God saying to me, "I am done with you. " and walk away from me.

Well that is what the judgement of 70 a.d. was to the Jews who had been his covenant people since he brought them out of Egypt. He was their God, and now he wasn't. They had to worship him at the temple in Jerusalem. That is where he met with them, accepted their sacrifices and forgave their sins, and answered their prayers, and spoke to them through prophets and priests. No more prophets, No more priests, no more relationship with him, no more protection or provision of comfort. No more temple. Jerusalem trampled on.

That had never happened before and it will never happen again. Only those who reject Jesus, as the Jews did, will face his wrath. And that wrath does not last for seven years, that is not what the great tribulation is. That is not the judgement. His wrath will do its work in an instant by the breath of his mouth.