Who are they, and where have they come from?

[Josheb]

How can you make such a ridicules statement like that about John 3:16

​

16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Jesus states "whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"

@Marty,

Don't take the bait. The post is a red herring. Its only function served is to take the discussion away from the op. The question asked in the title is definitively answered by Rev. 7:14 and the op cited that verse but does not accept what is explicitly stated. That point of denial is the focal point of this discussion and a variety of red herrings will be attempted to avoid resolving that inconsistency. If John 3:16 becomes the topic then the identity of those coming through the great tribulation is not the topic. If the topic is his library, my right, all the "here we go agains," and Jesus' return are ALL red herrings - obfuscations of what should otherwise be a very succinct conversation about the identity of the title's group of people and from whence they occur.


Rev. 7:14 answers the question asked in the title, and it does so definitively.


To avoid what is stated questions are added to obscure what is state: What is the great tribulation? When is the tribulation Jesus supposedly said was in the future (our future)? The simple fact is whatever the tribulation is and whenever it occurs..... Christians go through it. That is a problem in modern futurism because modern futurism teaches all the Christians are removed from the planet so they do not have to go through the great tribulation (whatever it may be and whenever it might occur).


Don't take the bait. (Try to) Hold him to the specifics of what Rev. 7:14 explicitly states because anything else is digressive.

 

[Marty]

@Marty,

Don't take the bait. The post is a red herring. Its only function served is to take the discussion away from the op. The question asked in the title is definitively answered by Rev. 7:14 and the op cited that verse but does not accept what is explicitly stated. That point of denial is the focal point of this discussion and a variety of red herrings will be attempted to avoid resolving that inconsistency. If John 3:16 becomes the topic then the identity of those coming through the great tribulation is not the topic. If the topic is his library, my right, all the "here we go agains," and Jesus' return are ALL red herrings - obfuscations of what should otherwise be a very succinct conversation about the identity of the title's group of people and from whence they occur.


Rev. 7:14 answers the question asked in the title, and it does so definitively.


To avoid what is stated questions are added to obscure what is state: What is the great tribulation? When is the tribulation Jesus supposedly said was in the future (our future)? The simple fact is whatever the tribulation is and whenever it occurs..... Christians go through it. That is a problem in modern futurism because modern futurism teaches all the Christians are removed from the planet so they do not have to go through the great tribulation (whatever it may be and whenever it might occur).


Don't take the bait. Hold him to the specifics of what Rev. 7:14 explicitly states because anything else is digressive.

Yes good advice

My focus has been showing that the great tribulation is on the church and the wrath of God is on the unsaved.

 

[Arial]

Concerning the temple....the Jews are currently working on rebuilding their temple. Scripture in the bible tells us they will be successful though I believe there will be no "salvation" forgiveness and covering of sin in that temple.

Just a note here to put this statement into the context of reality.

Way back into the mid and late 1990's, this working on rebuilding the temple as well as the red heifer hoax. (someplace in Texas had these red heifers) was being herald as an indication that yep, the return of Jesus and his thousand year reign in Israel is just around the corner. Look up, you are about to be raptured outta here.

What year is it now? Oh. 2025. All those red heifers never made it to Israel and are dead now. And not one stone of the third temple has been laid.

 

[Josheb]

I can't....but @Josheb seems to think I can.
They seem to be cherry picking bible verses stating some don't apply to us.

Yes he does...in some instances already presented Jesus is also speaking to the future generations....especially the generation that will be around when Christ returns.

LOL....I replied to a direct comment about me...then you reply back with "Can you address the subject and not the posters?

Come on Josheb. Ridicule seems to be one of your tactics when you have been answered and can't respond to the question asked.

Dude.....I was presenting scripture that speaks to all of us...you presented scripture and claim Jesus was ONLY talking to the disciples and what was written was not for our edification.

.


Rev. 7:14 answers the question asked in the title, and it does so definitively. Who they are is those who have washed their robes in Christ's blood (Christians) and whence they come from is the great tribulation.


.

 

[CrowCross]

Just a note here to put this statement into the context of reality.

Way back into the mid and late 1990's, this working on rebuilding the temple as well as the red heifer hoax. (someplace in Texas had these red heifers) was being healed as an indication that yep, the return of Jesus and his thousand year reign in Israel is just around the corner. Look up, you are about to be raptured outta here.

What year is it now? Oh. 2025. All those red heifers never made it to Israel and are dead now. And not one stone of the third temple has been laid.

You seem to be out of the loop. I just red this article today...

The Red Heifer And The Temple: The Prophetic Clock Is Ticking....article​

Something remarkable--and deeply prophetic--just happened in Israel. In a quiet but symbolically thunderous event, a heifer was burned in Israel in accordance with biblical instructions found in Numbers 19.

It wasn't a red heifer--the rare, perfect animal required for temple purification--but it was a full-scale rehearsal. And in the eyes of many devout Jews and watchful Christians, it signals something far greater than the ritual itself: the accelerating movement toward rebuilding the Third Temple.

The red heifer is a bit more than the nothing you presented.

 

[CrowCross]

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Rev. 7:14 answers the question asked in the title, and it does so definitively. Who they are is those who have washed their robes in Christ's blood (Christians) and whence they come from is the great tribulation.


.

I agree that since its very beginning, the church of Jesus Christ has suffered a lot of oppression and mistreatment....but so far has seen nothing as terrible as experienced by those believers saved in the last 3 1/2 years of the 7 year tribulation period.

Matthew 24:21....For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

Daniel 12:1...“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

Jeremiah 30:7...How awful that day will be! None will be like it! It is the time of Jacob’s distress, but he will be saved out of it.

 

[Marty]

I agree that since its very beginning, the church of Jesus Christ has suffered a lot of oppression and mistreatment....but so far has seen nothing as terrible as experienced by those believers saved in the last 3 1/2 years of the 7 year tribulation period.

Matthew 24:21....For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

Daniel 12:1...“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

Jeremiah 30:7...How awful that day will be! None will be like it! It is the time of Jacob’s distress, but he will be saved out of it.

Do you realize that you just proved that this is about Israel and not the church doesn't you? You quoted "the time of Jacobs distress".

Also if everyone whose name shall be found written in the book will be raptured or saved out of it then who are the people in Revelation 6:9, 7:14 or anyone killed by the beast during the great tribulation?

 

[CrowCross]

Do you realize that you just proved that this is about Israel and not the church doesn't you? You quoted "the time of Jacobs distress".

Also if everyone whose name shall be found written in the book will be raptured or saved out of it then who are the people in Revelation 6:9, 7:14 or anyone killed by the beast during the great tribulation?

The book of Revelations is pretty much for Israel...to restore them. Hence the reason for the 144,000....and why the christians were raptured.

The time of trouble is for both the world as well as the Jewish nation.

 

[Arial]

I agree that since its very beginning, the church of Jesus Christ has suffered a lot of oppression and mistreatment....but so far has seen nothing as terrible as experienced by those believers saved in the last 3 1/2 years of the 7 year tribulation period.

Matthew 24:21....For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

Daniel 12:1...“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

Jeremiah 30:7...How awful that day will be! None will be like it! It is the time of Jacob’s distress, but he will be saved out of it.

I thought this thread was about "Who Were They and Where Did They Come From". Shouldn't you be dealing with proving who they were and where they came from and/or dealing with the answers that are given by fellow members?

 

[Arial]

Stop with your games.....did I just violate another of your rules by telling an admin to stop with their games?

Yes. Maybe you should read the rules. It demeans me by asserting that I am playing games. Then it demeans me further by calling them my rules. Plus the post itself insults the poster by screaming at them huge red letters (in written material protocol) as though they were both deaf and stupid. No self control over emotions. So post deleted.

 

[Carbon]

ADMIN Hat on.


Eschatology is very interesting, deep, and not a doctrine that anyone can fully understand. I hope from here forward, we all could consider a little grace towards one another when discussing this doctrine. I myself, though I strongly disagree with dispensationalism, I do not believe it is heresy, though very close. Thinking of our brother John MacArther, he was a dispy, (not sure how) and I know he wasn't a heretic. I think if it comes to a time when we may get frustrated, it may be best to say nothing and move on. Maybe come back to it later.

I'll leave this post with these words of wisdom from Abraham Lincoln. The bold is mainly for this occasion.

"With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan—to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and a lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations."


ADMIN hat off.

 

[Marty]

The book of Revelations is pretty much for Israel...to restore them. Hence the reason for the 144,000....and why the christians were raptured.

The time of trouble is for both the world as well as the Jewish nation.

That didn't address my reply at all.

 

[Arial]

The Red Heifer And The Temple: The Prophetic Clock Is Ticking

My point being that is what they were saying back in 1997.

Something remarkable--and deeply prophetic--just happened in Israel. In a quiet but symbolically thunderous event, a heifer was burned in Israel in accordance with biblical instructions found in Numbers 19.

It wasn't a red heifer--the rare, perfect animal required for temple purification--but it was a full-scale rehearsal. And in the eyes of many devout Jews and watchful Christians, it signals something far greater than the ritual itself: the accelerating movement toward rebuilding the Third Temple.

So what? I guess they don't realize (and quite possibly you don't either) that when the temple was destroyed and Jerusalem was sacked in 70 a.d. that was God, with a mighty hand and outstretched arm, departing from Israel. The covenant broken never to be restored. No more temple, no more priests inteceding with God for the people, no more Sinai covenant worship, no more intercessory animal sacrifices, no meeting place with God in Israel. Old covenant gone. That is the worst tribulation anyone can go through. It does not have to be the biggest disaster in the world or the biggest war. Try and put yourself in their exact place as a people who for thousands of years had been beneath the shadow of his wings, and those things that were destroyed and vanished in 70 a.d. were their very security and life line.

Those who have been placed in Christ, true and faithful Israel, are his dwelling place by the Holy Spirit. There is only one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus. His New Covenant people go boldly before his throne of grace by the blood of Jesus and the sacrifice of his body. I don't know why anyone would conjecture that God would restore that old order once he had destroyed it in Christ. Israel has already been judged. He keeps a remnant for himself.

 

[Marty]

My point being that is what they were saying back in 1997.

So what? I guess they don't realize (and quite possibly you don't either) that when the temple was destroyed and Jerusalem was sacked in 70 a.d. that was God, with a mighty hand and outstretched arm, departing from Israel. The covenant broken never to be restored. No more temple, no more priests inteceding with God for the people, no more Sinai covenant worship, no more intercessory animal sacrifices, no meeting place with God in Israel. Old covenant gone. That is the worst tribulation anyone can go through. It does not have to be the biggest disaster in the world or the biggest war. Try and put yourself in their exact place as a people who for thousands of years had been beneath the shadow of his wings, and those things that were destroyed and vanished in 70 a.d. were their very security and life line.

Those who have been placed in Christ, true and faithful Israel, are his dwelling place by the Holy Spirit. There is only one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus. His New Covenant people go boldly before his throne of grace by the blood of Jesus and the sacrifice of his body. I don't know why anyone would conjecture that God would restore that old order once he had destroyed it in Christ. Israel has already been judged. He keeps a remnant for himself.

Yes amen someone finally gets it

 

[Carbon]

the temple was destroyed and Jerusalem was sacked in 70 a.d. that was God, with a mighty hand and outstretched arm, departing from Israel.

Indeed!
That's the way I understand it.

 

[Paul]

Who are they, and where have they come from?

In the book of Revelation we read the following account..

Rev 7:9 After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands------->13 Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14 “Sir,” I answered, “you know.”
So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Who are they, and where have they come from...was asked. The answer was given...they have come out of the great tribulation. Simple enough....but, what is the "great tribulation"?

Matt 24:21 helps us with an answer when Jesus says:
"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unseen from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again".

Question....Jesus tells us there will BE a future great tribulation...When and what was Jesus speaking of?
Question....who are the ones that have come out of this "there will be...great tribulation"?

The reign of the beast. He will cause and be the cause of astounding devastation on the earth. His reign has been cut short, 42 months, for the sake of the elect.

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

The bowl judgments are the last of Gods wrath and the judgments that plunge the beast's kingdom into darkness.

Jesus does come like a thief but it's on the last day for the battle on the great day of God.
Rev 16:15
“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

 

[CrowCross]

I thought this thread was about "Who Were They and Where Did They Come From". Shouldn't you be dealing with proving who they were and where they came from and/or dealing with the answers that are given by fellow members?

I have been. My bible says they came out of the GREAT TRIBULATION....what does your bible say?

So, when trying to understand who they are it's important to determine what the great tribulation is.....But, you deem that to be off topic.

 

[CrowCross]

The reign of the beast. He will cause and be the cause of astounding devastation on the earth. His reign has been cut short, 42 months, for the sake of the elect.

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

The bowl judgments are the last of Gods wrath and the judgments that plunge the beast's kingdom into darkness.

Jesus does come like a thief but it's on the last day for the battle on the great day of God.
Rev 16:15
“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Rev 16:16 seems to put a time stamp on it.. 16And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon....

Do you see this as pre-1000 year reign or post-1000 year reign?

 

[Homework]

Well, the fall of Jerusalem during the Great War of Persia that Nero and Caligula fought was not the only fall of Jerusalem. The Kingdom of Israel had traditionally opposed Egypt, and the word of Jethro about remembering to stay pure, and they had been aliens in Egypt were thought of as patriarchal laws.

It was nationalist. In modern English, religious people focus on the Ten Commandments. Daddies are their own patriarchs, and often forget to read over the history of the twelve members of the aristocracy in Israel, especially when you’re just a little kid.

You’re supposed to think that daddy-o is the king, and that any other king would be inappropriate, especially an Italian one. Hey…the Etruscans have had a tough last century or so. I don’t accept Mussolini either, and I’m sure that I’d understand George Patton a bit more readily than I would Mario Andretti.

Still, the rise and fall of Jerusalem in terms of Deuteronomy is more important than you’d think. It’s not just religion, Jerusalem is a city with solid walls, and six days a week people work more than they pray. It’s Jewish, officially Jewish. It’s had its walls breached by apostasy and gotten in fights with other walled cities like Rome and Athens before.

Imagining yourself in Jerusalem, since that’s a flight your reading and prayerful meditation might take you on, how do you use your civil knowledge of Deuteronomy and the day to day everyday patriotic practice of the old patriarchal society? Jerusalem rode and fell more than once in the Bible, let me think.

What about…Washington DC. It’s had a few rises and falls to outside invaders, from Wellington and Nelson to Martin Luther King and his rioting marchers, which happened after Robert E Assaulted north across the Patomic, and recently in skirmishes between Biden and Trump.

Richmond in Virginia has risen and fallen to local outside invaders. So has Atlanta, in Georgia. London has risen and fallen in civil wars. Dublin is currently “occupied” in a secession. Hue is in Tenerife, but Da Nang occupies its place in Vietnam. Berlin has risen and fallen, its walls have been breached and destroyed.

The only country in the narrative at hand, however l, that has no self built hometown of its own is Egypt. Egypt, by reputation, is the site of a great walled city that Noah built, which the tower Babylonians tore down and built asymmetrical pyramids out of. Egypt has never been occupied, except by colonial builders who put up their own houses, mills and places of worship, other than that no one lives there except the descendants of Ham, who made the pyramids out of Noah’s ruined work. And Nile crocodiles.

 

[Arial]

I have been. My bible says they came out of the GREAT TRIBULATION....what does your bible say?

So, when trying to understand who they are it's important to determine what the great tribulation is.....But, you deem that to be off topic.

Then get to it. So far you have said they come out of the great tribulation but I don't see anywhere where you identify what that is except through conjecture and opinion.