Which happens first, regeneration or justification?

[Arial]

That is called foreknowledge.

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

The subject was not predestination (what you call foreknowledge) but who it is that comes to Jesus. You only dealt with one of the scriptures I gave so I will post your claim concerning the narrow gate and repost the question I asked concerning it. I will highlight the pertinent (what applies to my question) words so you don't loose track of the question and then you can answer who comes to Jesus.

Matthew 28? It seems to me to be an open invitation. Same with the "Take my yoke upon you" invitation for Jesus in verse 29.

Clearly, Jesus is not asking that one come to him and take his yoke and then not reveal the Father to them. But if you see it different, I will consider it.

Post #216

Who comes to him though, according to Jesus?

John 6:36-37 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

44. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

63-65. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and life. But some of you do not believe. (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

 

[Arial]

45. It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

This is part of the same conversation that the scriptures I quoted are in. It immediately follows 44. So are you trying to tell me Jesus said one thing and then the opposite thing right on its heels? If you keep it consistent with the rest of the conversation---which you should---the ones God is giving to Jesus, the ones he draws, the ones he grants to come to Jesus are the same ones that have heard and learned from the Father. It neither says nor implies that mankind in an unregenerate state can hear and learn from the Father. Remember? The words he speaks are Spirit and life and it is the Spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing.

 

[prism]

God's foreknowledge (prognosis) is of his own actions, which he decreed before time began, and which actions do damn and save.

How would that help @JIM and his question?

 

[Carbon]

So, not necessarily all who hear from the Father come to the Son otherwise all would be saved...

Some do not have ears to hear. Some do

 

[Carbon]

45. It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

If you understood these things, you would probably make a good Calvinist.

 

[Carbon]

I find the word “regeneration” in scripture to refer to baptism and the restoration of the kingdom of God.

Well my friend, then you miss so much

 

[Blain]

I think regenration comes first we could not be justified in our old sinful nature we must be born again with a new heart

 

[JIM]

So, not necessarily all who hear from the Father come to the Son otherwise all would be saved...

45. It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

Foreknowledge saves no one or damns anyone.

I didn't claim foreknowledge saved anyone. So I don't know why you posted that in response to my comment. But I will say that 1 Peter 1:1-2 clearly says that God's the elect are according to His foreknowledge. So given your comment, perhaps it is your understanding of elect that is in question.

 

[JIM]

God's foreknowledge (prognosis) is of his own actions, which he decreed before time began, and which actions do damn and save.

That is the fallacy of a fairly recent batch of theologians of the so-called Open Theism. They have decided, quite apart from scripture, that God only knows the future of that which he has directly caused. It is heretical in that it denies God's perfect and complete omniscience. God's foreknowledge is simply His omniscience of the future. 1 Peter 1:1-2 clearly and absolutely says that His election is according to His foreknowledge. Romans 8:28-29 tells us that foreknowledge is of the ones who love Him.

God saves. The ones that He saves are those who love Him; those are the ones He calls. And knowing from before all creation who those will be, they are the ones "he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified" (Rom 8:29-30).

 

[Red Baker]

So, not necessarily all who hear from the Father come to the Son otherwise all would be saved...

Foreknowledge saves no one or damns anyone.

Greetings prism~I would only add this for now:

God's foreknowledge is not the cause of one's condemnation ~ but is the cause of eternal life for those He elected by grace alone ~allow me to explain my understanding of this truth, in a few words.

God's perfect foreknowledge of all things, fully understood that unless He had an election based on His grace alone, then none would have ever have inherited eternal life by their own power/works, none. God alone is immutable and cannot sin, or even have a lust/desire to do so, impossible ~ all others can and will sin, even create being's spirits like angels, since no one possess immutability but God alone, an attribute that is one of many He possess that makes Him God, blessed forever.

This being said, God's foreknowledge is the reason why God had an election of grace before angels or man had done good or evil. So, Peter understood this perfectly and wrote:

1 Peter 1:2​

“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

It certain was not based upon foreseen works of any kind, that is blasphemy for a few reasons. That position is a doctrine of devils.

I fully agree that foreknowledge does not damn anyone, since God in His infinite wisdom created man upright, placed him in a world that had everything to help him to live happy, contended and free of sin; the only thing God did not do, was to secure Adam and Eve in the state in which he created them, neither was He under obligation to do so, since He certainly did not work against them, nor was He their enemy in any way whatsoever~man's disobedience was his own undoing by his free will to do good, or disobey, he chose to disobey and since then we all have reaped the terrible consequences of Adam's disobedience~only the grace of God saved those who were chosen by God's own will before the foundation of the earth and secures eternal life for them through the obedience of one, JESUS CHRIST, God's only begotten Son.

 

[JIM]

The subject was not predestination (what you call foreknowledge) but who it is that comes to Jesus. You only dealt with one of the scriptures I gave so I will post your claim concerning the narrow gate and repost the question I asked concerning it. I will highlight the pertinent (what applies to my question) words so you don't loose track of the question and then you can answer who comes to Jesus.

Post #216

I do not call predestination foreknowledge. That is the mistake of the Calvinist. I some cases, God's predestination is according to His foreknowledge. That is what Peter tells us in 1 Peter 1:1-2.. God's choosing of who He will save, i.e., His election, is according to, is based upon, His foreknowledge of who will love Him (Rom *:28-29).

 

[JIM]

This is part of the same conversation that the scriptures I quoted are in. It immediately follows 44. So are you trying to tell me Jesus said one thing and then the opposite thing right on its heels?

No, you are. verse 45 explains quite clearly verse 44.

If you keep it consistent with the rest of the conversation---which you should---the ones God is giving to Jesus, the ones he draws, the ones he grants to come to Jesus are the same ones that have heard and learned from the Father. It neither says nor implies that mankind in an unregenerate state can hear and learn from the Father. Remember? The words he speaks are Spirit and life and it is the Spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing.

It actually says nothing there about the regenerate state or the unregenerate state. You are the one making the claim, a false claim by the way, about the unregenerate state. The passage in John 6:63-65 doesn't say anything about regeneration. You are the one make that (false) connection. But I will add here that verse 63 does indicate that God foreknows who will not believe; so therefore, He obviously knows who will believe.

 

[JIM]

Well my friend, then you miss so much

No, I think it is you who have missed so much.

 

[JIM]

God's perfect foreknowledge of all things, fully understood that unless He had an election based on His grace alone, then none would have ever have inherited eternal life by their own power/works, none.

First, where do you ever read that "unless He had an election based on His grace alone, then none would have ever have inherited eternal life"?

And moreover, where in all of Christendom do you find any significant group claiming to have "inherited eternal life by their own power/works"?

Both of those views are false constructs of Calvinism/Reformed Theology, with the second of those being a really serious red herring.

 

[JIM]

I think regenration comes first we could not be justified in our old sinful nature we must be born again with a new heart

Regeneration does not do away with that old sinful nature. However, regeneration does indeed help us to fight against that old sinful nature.

 

[Arial]

No, you are. verse 45 explains quite clearly verse 44.

Then what does Jesus mean by the ones that God gives him come to Him? What does he mean when he says no one CAN come to Him unless the Father grants it?

It actually says nothing there about the regenerate state or the unregenerate state. You are the one making the claim, a false claim by the way, about the unregenerate state. The passage in John 6:63-65 doesn't say anything about regeneration. You are the one make that (false) connection.

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Everyone is unregenerate until they are regenerated by God. A person who does not believe is unregenerent.

In your responses you simply pit scripture against scripture. Instead of telling me that that passage doesn't say something,tell me what it DOES say. You still haven't told me what Jesus means in any of those passages.

 

[Arial]

I do not call predestination foreknowledge. That is the mistake of the Calvinist. I some cases, God's predestination is according to His foreknowledge. That is what Peter tells us in 1 Peter 1:1-2.. God's choosing of who He will save, i.e., His election, is according to, is based upon, His foreknowledge of who will love Him (Rom *:28-29).

Where is your response to the rest of my post? Why don't you answer questions?

 

[Red Baker]

That is what Peter tells us in 1 Peter 1:1-2.. God's choosing of who He will save, i.e., His election, is according to, is based upon, His foreknowledge of who will love Him (Rom 8:28-29).

That statement of yours is against God's testimony of the truth. Man by nature is at enmity against God~he is not just an enemy of God, which is bad enough, but is at enmity against him~in other words, he is at war with God, he has an heart of stones, living in rebellion against the most high. He must first be given a new heart in order to love God.

Ezekiel 36:26,27~“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”

These scriptures proves that salvation from sin and condemnation is all of God, and once God removes the stony, rebellious heart, then that person has the power to love and keep God's commandments, but not until then. God must cause us to love him, or no man would ever do so, in his natural state. We can only love God, because He first chose to loved us.

 

[JIM]

Then what does Jesus mean by the ones that God gives him come to Him? What does he mean when he says no one CAN come to Him unless the Father grants it?


63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Once again, erroneously, you make the assumption that the spirit cannot engage with the unregenerate.

Everyone is unregenerate until they are regenerated by God. A person who does not believe is unregenerent.

I think your problem here is that you have a really poor concept of how one comes to believe. You think God zaps ("gifts") you with believing so that first you do not believe and then "zap" you are regenerated, and then you believe. That is simply not how one comes to believe in God.

In your responses you simply pit scripture against scripture. Instead of telling me that that passage doesn't say something,tell me what it DOES say. You still haven't told me what Jesus means in any of those passages.

No, I do not put scripture against scripture. Rather, I put scripture against your faulty interpretation of some scripture.

 

[JIM]

That statement of yours is against God's testimony of the truth. Man by nature is at enmity against God~he is not just an enemy of God, which is bad enough, but is at enmity against him~in other words, he is at war with God, he has an heart of stones, living in rebellion against the most high. He must first be given a new heart in order to love God.

Ezekiel 36:26,27~“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”

These scriptures proves that salvation from sin and condemnation is all of God, and once God removes the stony, rebellious heart, then that person has the power to love and keep God's commandments, but not until then. God must cause us to love him, or no man would ever do so, in his natural state. We can only love God, because He first chose to loved us.

Nothing in Ezekiel 36:26-27 says anything against what I believe and teach. That passage is perfectly in agreement with Peter's sermon on Pentecost where he instructs the repentant believer on how to obtain forgiveness of sins and how to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit which is precisely what Ezekiel 36:26-27 promises.