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Which happens first, regeneration or justification?

Jim, regeneration is a instance act of God's power, just as the creation of the heavens, earth, and light, etc But, I can see how you and others believe it is a process, because of your theology you hold to ~ like a five step process, that I have heard others attempt to explain~ hearing, believing, repentance, baptism, and then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, etc.
I think you have misunderstood what I said, or what I meant to say. Hearing, believing, repenting, and being baptized are not acts of being saved. Those are not steps in a process of being saved. Rather those are conditions that once one has fulfilled God has promised to save. Saving is the instantaneous act of God for the one who has heard, believed repented and has been baptized. The process, if you wish to call it that, is in the part of the one to be saved. Clearly there is a passage of time involved in just the hearing (or reading). Similarly, having heard the gospel message, it could take even more time to come to fully believe in God and in Jesus as Lord and Savior. And neither the repenting nor the act of being baptized would ever be described as being instantaneous.
 
I would receive that as truth if shown by Scripture. Have any?

Eph 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
 
I think you have misunderstood what I said, or what I meant to say. Hearing, believing, repenting, and being baptized are not acts of being saved. Those are not steps in a process of being saved. Rather those are conditions that once one has fulfilled God has promised to save.
Jim, I understood, and truly by saying~"Hearing, believing, repenting, and being baptized are not acts of being saved. Those are not steps in a process of being saved. Rather those are conditions that once one has fulfilled God has promised to save." You still have a process with conditions attacked to do, that once fulfilled one will be saved.

Jim, that is another gospel pure and simple~I do not care how you gift wrapped that box with different colors of paper you still have the same gospel inside of that box that God has pronounced a curse upon according to Galatians one.
Saving is the instantaneous act of God for the one who has heard, believed repented and has been baptized.
Major problem here with the gospel you have come to embrace.

Regeneration is an instance acts of God's power. Post regeneration, one has the power to hear, believe, and an heart to desire to be baptized into the religion/faith of the Son of God, but not until then. John 1:12,13

Clearly there is a passage of time involved in just the hearing (or reading). Similarly, having heard the gospel message, it could take even more time to come to fully believe in God and in Jesus as Lord and Savior. And neither the repenting nor the act of being baptized would ever be described as being instantaneous.
My friend Jim, the only passage of time would be between being born again of the Spirit of God, and when one believes and shows forth the evidence of being one of the very elect. That period of time varies among the elect. Many factors come into the equation.
 
Regeneration is an instance acts of God's power. Post regeneration, one has the power to hear, believe, and an heart to desire to be baptized into the religion/faith of the Son of God, but not until then. John 1:12,13
But John 1:12 specifies that the one receiving Jesus, believing in His name, is given the right to become a child of God. It is they, according to John 1:13 who, once given that right or privilege, were born again. It is obvious to me that receiving Him, believing in His name, is the prerequisite to being given the right to become born again.

It is a right, it is a privilege, promised by God to whosoever believes in Him.

It does NOT say that those who were born of God were given the right or the privilege to become a child of God who would receive Him, who would believe in His name.
 
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Still waiting on someone to explain this seemly dilemma~if, it is true, there's no such doctrine as eternal justification in the sense in which God revealed Himself to Abel, and millions of others before Christ actually and legally paid for their sins.
There was no law to sin against between Adam and Moses. Personal sin against the Law began with Sinai.

God "overlooked," left the sins committed before Christ unpunished (Ro 3:25) but covered (Ro 4:7) by the animal blood sacrifices until they were actually remitted for the redeemed by the blood sacrifice of his Son.
 
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I would receive that as truth if shown by Scripture. Have any?
There is Scripture which shows that truth for those who have eyes to see; for example:

We see three distinct divine agents, Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
1) in the work of salvation:
a) at its beginning (Lk 1:35),
b) at the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry (Mt 3:16-17) and
c) in the work of atonement (Heb 9:14).

2) We see the Holy Spirit completing the work of the Father through the Son:
Ac 2:33-38, Ro 8:26, 1 Co 12:4-6, Eph 1:3-14, 2:13-22, 2 Th 2:13, 1 Pe 1:2.

3)
We see the only way to enter the kingdom of the
Father is through faith in the Son and regeneration by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:1-15).

4) We see the
Father, Son and Holy Spirit are bracketed as the triune (singular) name of God;
a) Jesus said that this was the name (singular--not names, plural) of God (Mt 28:19) with whom we enter into relationship,
b) Paul uses all three interchangeably in 1 Co 12:4-6,
c) they are linked in prayer for divine blessing in 2 Co 13:14, and in the pronouncement of divine blessing in Rev 1:4-5.


5) We see the close connection in the NT between Father and Son, Father and Spirit:
Ro 1:7, 1 Co 1:3, 2 Co 1:2, Gal 1:3, Eph 1:2, Php 1:2, 1 Th 1:1, 3:11, 2 Th 1:2, 8, 12, 2:16, 3:5 and
Son and Spirit:
Ro 8:9, Gal 4:6, Php 1:19,
which point to a co-equal relationship,
where "
the Lord (Jesus) is the Spirit (2 Co 3:17-18); and also where
Jesus is in us (Jn 14:23, 20, Col 1:27, just as the Father (Jn 14:23) and the Spirit (Jn 14:17, Ro 8:9, 11, 1 Co 6:19) are in us.

Those who have eyes to see thereby see the Trinity in the above.
 
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The only order is to hear, believe, repent and then to be baptized. At that point God, saves.
Yea, salvation by works.
I understand that stands in stark contrast to your view of the situation. So be it.
Yes it does.
 
There is Scripture which shows that truth for those who have eyes to see; for example:

We see three distinct divine agents, Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
1) in the work of salvation:
a) at its beginning (Lk 1:35),
b) at the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry (Mt 3:16-17) and
c) in the work of atonement (Heb 9:14).

2) We see the Holy Spirit completing the work of the Father through the Son:
Ac 2:33-38, Ro 8:26, 1 Co 12:4-6, Eph 1:3-14, 2:13-22, 2 Th 2:13, 1 Pe 1:2.

3)
We see the only way to enter the kingdom of the
Father is through faith in the Son and regeneration by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:1-15).

4) We see the
Father, Son and Holy Spirit are bracketed as the triune (singular) name of God;
a) Jesus said that this was the name (singular--not names, plural) of God (Mt 28:19) with whom we enter into relationship,
b) Paul uses all three interchangeably in 1 Co 12:4-6,
c) they are linked in prayer for divine blessing in 2 Co 13:14, and in the pronouncement of divine blessing in Rev 1:4-5.


5) We see the close connection in the NT between Father and Son, Father and Spirit:
Ro 1:7, 1 Co 1:3, 2 Co 1:2, Gal 1:3, Eph 1:2, Php 1:2, 1 Th 1:1, 3:11, 2 Th 1:2, 8, 12, 2:16, 3:5 and
Son and Spirit:
Ro 8:9, Gal 4:6, Php 1:19,
which point to a co-equal relationship,
where "
the Lord (Jesus) is the Spirit (2 Co 3:17-18); and also where
Jesus is in us (Jn 14:23, 20, Col 1:27, just as the Father (Jn 14:23) and the Spirit (Jn 14:17, Ro 8:9, 11, 1 Co 6:19) are in us.

Those who have eyes to see thereby see the Trinity in the above.
I know the Trinity is connected as One, but I was referring to some type of Covenant or pact they made in eternity.
I thought @Arial s Eph 1:1-6 quote as sufficient, didn't you?
 
But John 1:12 specifies that the one receiving Jesus, believing in His name, is given the right to become a child of God.
Okay Jim, STOP THERE and LISTEN to what John is saying! Not shouting to you my friend, I just wanted you to ponder those words. Consider:

John 1:11​

“He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Jesus' own people the Jews as a whole did not received him as God's Son, yet the very next two scriptures will reveal to us why some did receive Jesus, and others did as his own people did, rejected him, and eventually killed him.

John 1:12​

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

Even those his own overall rejected him, John makes it clear that those that did receive him to them gave he the power to do so! Jim, as I have said to you before, John 1;13 is a commentary of John 1:12, and here is what he said:

John 1:13​

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

Jim, this should be very simple to follow, unless, a person's heart is steadfast in rejecting the word of God just as the Jews did in Jesus' day. Humble yourself under the teaching of the Holy Ghost, and do not resist his teaching as John 1:13 is a clear commentary on John 1:12.
But John 1:12 specifies that the one receiving Jesus, believing in His name, is given the right to become a child of God.
Which INCLUDES believing.

John 1:12​

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”
 
Yea, salvation by works.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Clearly the works that James is referring to and the works that Paul was referring to are not the same. Do you know the difference between the words that James spoke about and the works that Paul spoke about? I will add here that in both cases, works are something that we do.
 
Okay Jim, STOP THERE and LISTEN to what John is saying! Not shouting to you my friend, I just wanted you to ponder those words. Consider:

John 1:11​

“He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Jesus' own people the Jews as a whole did not received him as God's Son, yet the very next two scriptures will reveal to us why some did receive Jesus, and others did as his own people did, rejected him, and eventually killed him.
Yes.

John 1:12​

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

Even those his own overall rejected him, John makes it clear that those that did receive him to them gave he the power to do so! Jim, as I have said to you before, John 1;13 is a commentary of John 1:12, and here is what he said:
No! That is not what that sentence says. In that verse John does not say that God gave them the power to receive Him and to believe in His name. You have it backwards.

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

In that verse it says that Jesus gave them the right, the power, to become children of God. Who is the "them" that He gave that right, that power. John says He gave that right, that power, to all who received him and believed in His name. They are the ones spoken of in verse 13.

The ones who were regenerated were the ones who received Him and believed in His name. God regenerated the ones who received and believed.

John 1:13​

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

Jim, this should be very simple to follow, unless, a person's heart is steadfast in rejecting the word of God just as the Jews did in Jesus' day. Humble yourself under the teaching of the Holy Ghost, and do not resist his teaching as John 1:13 is a clear commentary on John 1:12.

Which INCLUDES believing.

John 1:12​

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”
Another really bad translation/interpretation from the KJV. It is not wrong, but it tends to let you come to the wrong conclusion. Even the KJV, if you are reading correctly says that God regenerated those that received Jesus and believed in His name. They weren't given the right to believe. So, what were they given? The ones who received and believed were given the right to become children of God. Who were the children of God? They were those born of God. The ones who received and believed were given the right to become born of God.
 
Yes.

No! That is not what that sentence says. In that verse John does not say that God gave them the power to receive Him and to believe in His name. You have it backwards.

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

In that verse it says that Jesus gave them the right, the power, to become children of God. Who is the "them" that He gave that right, that power. John says He gave that right, that power, to all who received him and believed in His name. They are the ones spoken of in verse 13.

The ones who were regenerated were the ones who received Him and believed in His name. God regenerated the ones who received and believed.


Another really bad translation/interpretation from the KJV. It is not wrong, but it tends to let you come to the wrong conclusion. Even the KJV, if you are reading correctly says that God regenerated those that received Jesus and believed in His name. They weren't given the right to believe. So, what were they given? The ones who received and believed were given the right to become children of God. Who were the children of God? They were those born of God. The ones who received and believed were given the right to become born of God.
Jim, in the light of this verse how do you handle vs12?...

Matthew 11:27 KJV
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
 
Jim, in the light of this verse how do you handle vs12?...

Matthew 11:27 KJV
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Don't stop with that one verse. Continue on.

Mat 11:28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

That labor and burden is not the physical, but the mental and spiritual. He says to them to "learn from Him".

To whom has Jesus revealed God? Who will learn from Him?

John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. ........21 But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people."

So to whom does Jesus reach out? He reaches out to the disobedient and contrary, the sinner. It is to the sinner that Jesus, through the word, the Bible, reveals God.

What is the rest for our souls? I believe it is know God and Jesus. and in doing so, then to be born again
 
I know the Trinity is connected as One, but I was referring to some type of Covenant or pact they made in eternity.
I thought @Arial s Eph 1:1-6 quote as sufficient, didn't you?
My mistake. . .I thought you were referring to the Trinity itself.
 
Don't stop with that one verse. Continue on.

Mat 11:28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

That labor and burden is not the physical, but the mental and spiritual. He says to them to "learn from Him".

To whom has Jesus revealed God? Who will learn from Him?

John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. ........21 But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people."

So to whom does Jesus reach out? He reaches out to the disobedient and contrary, the sinner. It is to the sinner that Jesus, through the word, the Bible, reveals God.

What is the rest for our souls? I believe it is know God and Jesus. and in doing so, then to be born again
Nice deflection avoiding my question on how you would handle...

Matthew 11:27 KJV
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Below is the same idea but in reverse...

Matthew 16:16-17 (KJV) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Instead of the Son revealing the Father it's the Father revealing the Son.
 
Don't stop with that one verse. Continue on.
Let us do so, no problem.
Mat 11:28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

That labor and burden is not the physical, but the mental and spiritual. He says to them to "learn from Him".
Jim, I agree, the burden under consideration is spiritual~and to them, and them only he desires for them to learn of him.
To whom has Jesus revealed God? Who will learn from Him?
Jim, great question, and the word of God has the answer for us. We need not to travel very far to receive our answer.

Matthew 11:27​

“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.”

Context is king and as I have said many times over, it will drive our interpretation for us. Added to this:

John 17:6​

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.”
Jesus revealed God and his truths to the men God gave to him, based upon the election of grace by God before the foundation of the earth~meaning, before they had done any good, or evil. Romans 9:11, etc.
So to whom does Jesus reach out? He reaches out to the disobedient and contrary, the sinner. It is to the sinner that Jesus, through the word, the Bible, reveals God.

What is the rest for our souls? I believe it is know God and Jesus. and in doing so, then to be born again
Jim, you are ignoring so many scriptures by taking Matthew 11:28-30 and applying them so the unregenerate. Consider:

If ever a passage of Scripture were mutilated and its meaning perverted, it is this one. Only a fragment of it usually is quoted, with the part most unpalatable to the flesh omitted. You know this is so.

Christ alluded here to the sovereignty of God in three details. First, by owning His Father as “Lord of heaven and earth,” that is, as sole Proprietor thereof. It is well to remember, especially when it appears Satan is master of this lower sphere, that God not only “doeth according to His will in the army of heaven,” but also “among the inhabitants of the earth,” so that “none can stay his hand” (Daniel 4:35). Second, by affirming, “Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent.” The things pertaining to salvation are concealed from the self-sufficient and self-complacent, leaving them in nature’s darkness. Third, by declaring, “and hast revealed them unto babes.” By the effectual operation of the Holy Spirit a divine discovery is made by those who are helpless in their own esteem. “Even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight,” expressed the Savior’s perfect acquiescence.

“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him” (Matthew 11:27). We cannot divorce vss 25-27 from 28-30!

Matthew 11:-28-30~supplies the immediate connecting-link between the sovereignty of divine grace mentioned (vv. 25-26) and the communication of that grace through Christ (vv. 28-30). The settlements of divine grace were made and secured in the everlasting covenant; communication of it is by and through Christ as the Mediator of that covenant. First, here is the grand commission the Mediator received from the Father: all things necessary to the administration of the covenant were delivered unto Christ (cf. Matthew 28:18; John 5:22, 17:2). Second, here is the inconceivable dignity of the Son: lest a false inference be drawn from the preceding clause, the essential and absolute deity of Christ is affirmed. Inferior in office, Christ’s nature and dignity is the same as the Father’s. As Mediator, Christ receives all from the Father, but as God the Son He is, in every way, equal to the Father in His incomprehensible Person. Third, here the work of the Mediator is summed up in one grand item: that of revealing the Father to those given to Him.

“Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (Matthew 11:28).

He now kindly invites to Himself those whom He caused to be his disciples.

Who are the persons here invited? They are those who “labor” and are “heavy laden.” This must here be limited to spiritual concerns, otherwise it will take in all mankind, even the most hardened and obstinate opposers of Christ and the Gospel~this would totally go against the words mention earlier in Matthew 11:20-24!

The persons invited are not “all” the inhabitants of mankind, but with a restriction: “all ye that labor and are heavy laden,” meaning not those who labor in the service of sin and Satan, are laden with iniquity and insensible of it: those are not weary of sin nor burdened with it, nor do they want or desire any rest for their souls; but such who groan, being burdened with the guilt of indwelling sin, and are pressed down with pleasing God, and have been laboring till they are weary, in order to obtain peace of conscience and rest for their souls. These are encouraged to come to Him, lay down their burdens at His feet and look to Him, and lay hold by faith on His person, blood and righteousness for them.

In more recent times most preachers have dealt with the text (Matthew 11:28) as though the Lord Jesus was issuing an indefinite invitation, regarding His terms as sufficiently general and wide in their scope to include sinners of every type. They supposed that the words, “ye that labor and are heavy laden,” refer to the misery and bondage which the fall brought upon the human race, as its unhappy subjects vainly seek satisfaction in the things of time and sense, and endeavor to find happiness in the pleasures of sin~yet, we know that they are insensible of their condition, so this cannot be the true meaning of this holy call to saints.

It is true the unregenerate “labor in the very fire” and they “weary themselves for very vanity” (Habakkuk 2:13); it is true they “labor in vain” (Jeremiah 51:58), and “what profit hath he that hath labored for the wind?” (Ecclesiastes 5:16). It is true they “spend money for that which is not bread,” and “labor for that which satisfieth not” (Isaiah 55:2), for

“the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing” (Ecclesiastes 1:8).

It is equally true that the unregenerate are heavy laden, “a people laden with iniquity” (Isaiah 1:4), yet they are totally insensible to their awful state.

“The labor of the foolish wearieth every one of them, because he knoweth not how to go to the city” (Ecclesiastes 10:15).

Moreover,

“The wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked” (Isaiah 57:20-21).

They have neither peace of conscience nor rest of heart. But it is quite another matter to affirm these are the characters Christ invited to come unto Him for rest. One must be first quickened to life before one truly is able/desires to respond to this call. .
 
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Let us do so, no problem.

Jim, I agree, the burden under consideration is spiritual~and to them, and them only he desires for them to learn of him.

Jim, great question, and the word of God has the answer for us. We need not to travel very far to receive our answer.

Matthew 11:27​

“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.”

Context is king and as I have said many times over, it will drive our interpretation for us. Added to this:

John 17:6​

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.”
Jesus revealed God and his truths to the men God gave to him, based upon the election of grace by God before the foundation of the earth~meaning, before they had done any good, or evil. Romans 9:11, etc.
I will respond to this part of your post and then perhaps, God willing, later for the rest of it.

As so many have tended to do, you have taken the words that Jesus spoke to and/or about a specific person or persons and then tried mistakenly to apply it more generally to include more than it actually is.

The men that Jesus was speaking about in John 17:6 are, specifically, his Disciples., the twelve, minus Judas, who become the His apostles of Jesus Christ to spread the gospel. It is not people in general. It is not those who you would call the elect. The entire passage John 17:6-19 is Jesus' prayer for His apostles. It is only these specific men that Jesus is referring to as being given Him.

Then in verse 20, Jesus expands that prayer more generally to "those who will believe in me [Jesus Christ] through their {the apostles] word." But here the only limitation here is that they are "those who will believe". There is no sense that they are, like the apostles of Jesus, given to Jesus.

I understand that you will only attribute those who will believe in Jesus only to those who fit your inappropriate Calvinistic definition of the elect. And the entire rest of your post is dedicated to trying to convince us that your nonsensical definition of the elect is not nonsensical. But that is not so identified here, or anywhere else in the Bible for that matter.

The Calvinist definition of the elect and the assertion that God is incapable of communicating with the unregenerate is one of the most egregiously false doctrines to ever invade God's gospel message.
 
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Nice deflection avoiding my question on how you would handle...

Matthew 11:27 KJV
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Below is the same idea but in reverse...

Matthew 16:16-17 (KJV) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Instead of the Son revealing the Father it's the Father revealing the Son.
Two the dynamic dual mutually working as if one . The Father not seen with power working in the Son of man Jesus seen, no power.

The "let there be" and "it was good power of the father" .

Power (let there be faith) is never attributed to the one lacks power of faith (and it was good)

No power from dying mankind

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

In Mathew 16 right after the Father revealed to Peter who he was that was working in empowering Peter. The father of lies (or man of sin)the spirit of anti-christs (many)

It is another teaching authroity (I heard it through the fathers grape vine) as oral tradition . . other than sola scriptura.

Satan recruited Peter as one of the antichrists' (false prophets false apostles) sent with the oral tradition of dying mankind. Satan putting his words in the mouth of the false apostle Peter .

Peter rebuking the unseen Lord of Glory. . forbidding Jesus the Son of man from demonstrating the unseen power of Christ the husband. God is not a Jewish man as King of earthly kings . Lord of heaven and earth

Mathew 16:22;23 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Eternal God is not a dying Jewish man as King of kings . When the circumcision vail was rent there was no dying Jewish man siting in what some called the holy of holies. Satan could no longer deceive all the nations of the world he is a Jewish man .

He fell into a pit and will be released to do the same .Seduce the world God is a dying Jewish man as King of kings

Revelation 20King James Version3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
 
The men that Jesus was speaking about in John 17:6 are, specifically, his Disciples., the twelve, minus Judas, who become the His apostles of Jesus Christ to spread the gospel. It is not people in general. It is not those who you would call the elect. The entire passage John 17:6-19 is Jesus' prayer for His apostles. It is only these specific men that Jesus is referring to as being given Him.
Really? It is wishful thinking on your part.

John 17:20​

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;”

Two things here: Who are "these"? You desire to limit them to the apostles only~but, you have some problems to address.

John 17:2,3​

“As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

"These" are all from post his baptism to the time of praying those words.

"but for them also which shall believe on me through their word". Post his death and resurrection, which includes Gentiles for the most part.
who become the His apostles of Jesus Christ to spread the gospel.
The subject under consideration is not a call to be an apostle, but the giving of eternal life to as many as God had given to him, by giving him power over all flesh.

John 17:2​

“As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Then in verse 20, Jesus expands that prayer more generally to "those who will believe in me [Jesus Christ] through their {the apostles] word." But here the only limitation here is that they are "those who will believe". There is no sense that they are, like the apostles of Jesus, given to Jesus.
You changed the word "shall" to will to seemly support your "free will" gospel that you have come to embraced. Only the elect can and will believe, other cannot.

John 10:26,27​

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:”
I understand that you will only attribute those who will believe in Jesus only to those who fit your inappropriate Calvinistic definition of the elect. And the entire rest of your post is dedicated to trying to convince us that your nonsensical definition of the elect is not nonsensical. But that is not so identified here, or anywhere else in the Bible for that matter.
Well, Jim, you take such scriptures as John 10:26-28 and give you understanding. It's very clear to me.
The Calvinist definition of the elect and the assertion that God is incapable of communicating with the unregenerate is one of the most egregiously false doctrines to ever invade God's gospel message.
"Red herring "fallacy! We are not discussing if God is able to communicate with the unregenerate~of course he can, he communicated with a dump ass, as He did with Balaam's ass.
 
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