Which happens first, regeneration or justification?

[Mr GLee]

The men that Jesus was speaking about in John 17:6 are, specifically, his Disciples., the twelve, minus Judas, who become the His apostles of Jesus Christ to spread the gospel. It is not people in general. It is not those who you would call the elect. The entire passage John 17:6-19 is Jesus' prayer for His apostles. It is only these specific men that Jesus is referring to as being given Him.

Many disciples followed the Son of man, Jesus who was led by the unseen father . Few were given the power of faith by which they could believe the father an anchor to the new born again soul .

Many outward Jews according to dying flesh were trusting God is a racist Hoping their Jewish dying flesh could profit for something .

God's chosen people not chosen race.

Jesus said of his own dying flesh it profits for zero .What does profit is eternal Spirit Life .

The prohecy given to Peter confessing why many disciples walked away faithless no power needed to believe, . . to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Living words

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

 

[prism]

The only deflection is your failure to read and understand.

Ok, How you would handle...

Matthew 11:27 KJV
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Below is the same idea but in reverse...

Matthew 16:16-17 (KJV) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Instead of the Son revealing the Father it's the Father revealing the Son.

 

[JIM]

"Red herring "fallacy! We are not discussing if God is able to communicate with the unregenerate~of course he can, he communicated with a dump ass, as He did with Balaam's ass.

You can call it a red herring if you like, but the fact is that given your concept of Total Depravity, Regeneration and Election, either God is incapable of communicating with the non-elect or He simply does not want to and instead would rather the mass of humanity simply be assigned to the fires of hell "for His good pleasure". None of that presents an acceptable character trait for the God of Creation. And the case with Balaam's ass is a non-issue in this discussion, since God didn't really communicate with Balaam's ass; rather He communicated with Balaam through Balaam's ass by the actions of the Holy Spirit. And Balaam's ass was not an unregenerate.

 

[JIM]

Ok, How you would handle...

Matthew 11:27 KJV
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Below is the same idea but in reverse...

Matthew 16:16-17 (KJV) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Instead of the Son revealing the Father it's the Father revealing the Son.

Go back and read reply #193.

 

[Mr GLee]

Ok, How you would handle...

Matthew 11:27 KJV
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Below is the same idea but in reverse...

Matthew 16:16-17 (KJV) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Instead of the Son revealing the Father it's the Father revealing the Son.

Amen just as used in the parables Sun as a tabernacle to represent glory of the Father. Moon the son of man Jesus the reflected glory. The stars all of the believers

Not the moon as the Son of man Jesus as the source of glory and the father a reflection

The glory of God as the literal light of this world departed day four the two corruption time keepers Sun and moon winding down to the last day under the Sun

Psalms 19:1-2 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun ,Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof

 

[Arial]

You can call it a red herring if you like, but the fact is that given your concept of Total Depravity, Regeneration and Election, either God is incapable of communicating with the non-elect or He simply does not want to and instead would rather the mass of humanity simply be assigned to the fires of hell "for His good pleasure".

The appeal to emotion fallacy aside, the doctrines of total depravity, regeneration, and election, have nothing to do with whether God can communicate with the non-elect. Of course he can. The problem is not with God or his character. The problem is with humanity. Sinners cannot approach a holy God. They cannot come into his presence and they do not want to. He is communicating with them all the time---see Romans 1. They shut their ears and only God can open a deaf ear.

 

[Red Baker]

You can call it a red herring if you like, but the fact is that given your concept of Total Depravity, Regeneration and Election, either God is incapable of communicating with the non-elect

Jim, God certainly is not without power to do so. Consider: Proverbs 16:7~"When a man’s ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him."

An enemy is a person hating you. It might be as mild as a family member envying you. It might be as extreme as a psychopath intending to kill you. Nations have other nations as enemies. In every case and at all times – God controls the hearts of all men, including your enemies (Pr 21:1). He can loose or restrain their wrath (Josh 11:20; Ps 76:10). Even the devil had to beg God to touch Job or pigs (Job 1:9-12; Mark 8:31).

Consider some examples. God changed Laban from a pursuing enemy to an agreeable father-in-law (Gen 31:22-55), and He melted Esau’s murderous heart for Jacob’s trust in the Lord (Gen 27:41; 33:1-4). No nation desired the property of Israel, when the men worshipped God three times a year (Ex 34:23-24). God let Solomon have a great reign of peace, so he could pursue his philosophical studies (I Kings 4:21-25; Eccl 1:12-18).

Joseph had peace with his master, his jailor, and Pharaoh (Gen 39:1-6,19-23; 41:38-45). Even the Philistines learned to love David, when hiding from Saul (I Sam 21:10-15; 27:5-7; 29:1-11). Daniel prospered under both Babylonian and Persian kings (Dan 1:21; 6:28). Esther and Mordecai were promoted to the highest levels of Persia (Esther 2:15-18; 10:1-3). And the Romans allowed Paul a rental house and preaching liberty (Acts 28:30-31).

When God is for His people, who can possibly be against them (Rom 8:31)? He promised Israel’s captors would treat the Jews well (Is 49:23; Jer 15:11).

He simply does not want to

Well, that could be the case.

Matthew 27:14​

“And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.”

and instead would rather the mass of humanity simply be assigned to the fires of hell "for His good pleasure".

There is no scripture that even hints that it is God's good pleasure that the wicked perish~another fallacy you are attempting to use.

 

[JIM]

The appeal to emotion fallacy aside, the doctrines of total depravity, regeneration, and election, have nothing to do with whether God can communicate with the non-elect.

Of course they do. Obviously, the Calvinist soteriology establishes total depravity as a condition such that nothing God has said in the whole of the Bible is comprehensible to the unregenerate.

Of course he can. The problem is not with God or his character.

Yes, you are correct in that.

The problem is with humanity

Well yes, but not in the sense that you would posit.

.Sinners cannot approach a holy God.

They certainly can appeal to God. They can recognize they have sinned and they can understand the need for God to act in their behalf for what lies beyond this world.

They cannot come into his presence and they do not want to. He is communicating with them all the time---see Romans 1. They shut their ears and only God can open a deaf ear.

It is true that most do, but not all. Mat_7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

That narrow gate is the dividing line between being dead in trespasses and sins and being made alive in Christ Jesus. It is the "gate of regeneration". Jesus has issued a command there for the unregenerate. Jesus' words there clearly indicates that some look for the narrow gate and find it and obviously enter it. Calvinism asserts that none look for it or find it. Rather, in Calvinism, God has to reach out and grab ahold of a few and pull them through.

 

[JIM]

Well, that could be the case.

Not even close to the God I know.

 

[Arial]

Of course they do. Obviously, the Calvinist soteriology establishes total depravity as a condition such that nothing God has said in the whole of the Bible is comprehensible to the unregenerate.

No it doesn't. It establishes the relationship between God and man and that relationship is enmity. Calvinism is just agreeing with what God's word says----which is what God says. It says, as the Bible does, that unregenerate man cannot understand spiritual things. They seem foolish to him.

1 Cor 2:14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they discerned only through the Spirit.

That goes right along with and in perfect agreement with what Jesus said. "Unless a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

One must be born again from above, by the will of God, not of his own flesh or his own will, by the Spirit before he can understand and believe because they are spiritual things, not natural things.

John 1:11-13 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, (that is) those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Put all that together and you have a non contradiction in the Bible. Don't do that by warping one or the others, and you will have a contradiction.

Well yes, but not in the sense that you would posit.

What sense is that?

They certainly can appeal to God. They can recognize they have sinned and they can understand the need for God to act in their behalf for what lies beyond this world.

They can kid themselves that they do. And if they genuinely do it is because God is working in them to bring them to Christ if the above verses I quoted are true.

It is true that most do, but not all. Mat_7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

A true statement but it does nothing to prove faith comes before regeneration.

That narrow gate is the dividing line between being dead in trespasses and sins and being made alive in Christ Jesus. It is the "gate of regeneration".

No it isn't the gate OF regeneration. It is the gate for the regenerated. Remember, you can't enter unless you have first been regenerated. (John 3). Born from above by the Spirit iow. It would be the "sheep" gate, the ones who come to Jesus because the Father granted it. (John 6). The ones who hear his voice and are his sheep and follow him because the Father has given those sheep to him. (John 6 and 10.)

Jesus has issued a command there for the unregenerate.

He has issued the command to everyone. But unregenerate man has been disobeying God's commands since Adam did.

Jesus' words there clearly indicates that some look for the narrow gate and find it and obviously enter it.

It doesn't say a single thing remotely resembling that. It is all in your head.

Calvinism asserts that none look for it or find it

Obviously Calvinism does not assert that none find it. It asserts that they find it because the are his sheep and they hear his voice and they follow him through the sheep gate. The unregenerate are not out looking for a gate to something they do not even believe.

Rather, in Calvinism, God has to reach out and grab ahold of a few and pull them through.

That is not the way Calvinism portrays it and it is not the way Jesus portrays it. (John 10) But even if what you say is true, wouldn't a person be grateful instead of kicking against the goads?

 

[JIM]

No it doesn't. It establishes the relationship between God and man and that relationship is enmity. Calvinism is just agreeing with what God's word says----which is what God says. It says, as the Bible does, that unregenerate man cannot understand spiritual things. They seem foolish to him.

1 Cor 2:14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they discerned only through the Spirit.

That goes right along with and in perfect agreement with what Jesus said. "Unless a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

One must be born again from above, by the will of God, not of his own flesh or his own will, by the Spirit before he can understand and believe because they are spiritual things, not natural things.

John 1:11-13 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, (that is) those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Put all that together and you have a non contradiction in the Bible. Don't do that by warping one or the others, and you will have a contradiction.

What sense is that?

They can kid themselves that they do. And if they genuinely do it is because God is working in them to bring them to Christ if the above verses I quoted are true.

A true statement but it does nothing to prove faith comes before regeneration.

No it isn't the gate OF regeneration. It is the gate for the regenerated. Remember, you can't enter unless you have first been regenerated. (John 3). Born from above by the Spirit iow. It would be the "sheep" gate, the ones who come to Jesus because the Father granted it. (John 6). The ones who hear his voice and are his sheep and follow him because the Father has given those sheep to him. (John 6 and 10.)

He has issued the command to everyone. But unregenerate man has been disobeying God's commands since Adam did.

It doesn't say a single thing remotely resembling that. It is all in your head.

Obviously Calvinism does not assert that none find it. It asserts that they find it because the are his sheep and they hear his voice and they follow him through the sheep gate. The unregenerate are not out looking for a gate to something they do not even believe.

That is not the way Calvinism portrays it and it is not the way Jesus portrays it. (John 10) But even if what you say is true, wouldn't a person be grateful instead of kicking against the goads?

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[Red Baker]

Not even close to the God I know.

Jim, my friend, why are you being so unreasonable? Yes, God does not show mercy equally to all people/nations, some he totally forsakes, or at least almost forsakes for whatever reason ~ it is His right to do so, for no person/nation has a right to His mercy, and goodness toward them, and no man within those nations has any goodness to make God show them mercy. In spite of them, He does send his rain upon them and allows many of them to enjoy fruitful seasons, even though, no thanks are rendered back to Him most of the time by the majority of folks living within those nations. Consider:

Sovereignty is God’s authority and right to do as He will with rational creatures for His reasons, and glory.

God has all the rights; we have all the responsibilities; if you do not like that, then change it! Good luck that.

Jim, it is personal: God gave us existence w/o asking, with the lake of fire at the end, and we cannot end it! He chose each detail for us w/o asking: nation, body, mind, family, ability, time, spouse, etc. He blesses one and curses others; anything we are or have is a gift (Ist Cor 4:7). Jim, Job knew; Mrs. Job rebelled – the LORD gave, and the LORD took away (Job 1:21; 2:10). I believe you know as well.

Jim, we cannot restrain Him or question Him, and we love it so (Isaiah 45:9; Daniel 4:35; Romans 9:20). Truly we cannot brush our teeth, or live, without God’s will for it, so we should not boast (James 4:13-16).

He says to skeptics, “Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?” (Matt 20:15). God hides truth from the educated, because He finds it good to humble them (Mat 11:25-27). He is the Potter – man is the clay; He does as He wishes: He makes all kinds (Rom 9:13-24). Jim, He makes you any way He wishes, whether seeing or blind (Ex 4:11; John 9:1-3; Deut 32:29). He is the primary cause behind any promotion in your profession (I Sam 2:7; Psalm 75:4-7). He can put you to sleep to miss something, keep you from sleep to find something, or teach you while you sleep (I Sam 26:12; Esther 6:1-3; Job 33:14-18).

He can forgive or judge as He sees fit – different men in different ways for the same sins, such as destroying Eli and his sons while saving David and his sons alive, etc., etc. He causes men to favor or hate His people (Ge 39:4,21; Esth 2:9,15,17; Ps 105:25; Dan 1:9). It is one thing to hap on the field of Boaz, it is an even bigger thing to have Boaz fall for you! He can give what you want, make you sick of it, and judge you for wanting it (Ps 106:13-15). He deceives prophets and people – deceived and deceiver are His (Job 12:16; Ezek 14:1-11).

Sovereignty is God’s choice and efforts to save whom He will by His own means of eternal life. He owes damnation to all, salvation to none, and if He saved one it is pure sovereign grace.

God’s will is the active and dominating will in eternal life – the true free Will (John 1:13; 3:8; 5:21; 6:38-39; Romans 9:16-18; Ephesians 1:5,9,11; Heb 8:8-12; 10:7-10; James 1:18).

So much more could be said, but enough for now. So, are you still saying~

Not even close to the God I know.

Then Jim, you have allowed false rellgion to corrupt your understanding of the God of Abrahams, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our spiritual fathers.

 

[JIM]

Jim, my friend, why are you being so unreasonable? Yes, God does not show mercy equally to all nations, some he totally forsakes, or at least almost forsakes for whatever reason ~ it is His right to do so, for no nation has a right to His mercy, and goodness toward them, and no man within those nations has any goodness to make God show them mercy. In spite of them, He does send his rain upon them and allow many of them to enjoy fruitful seasons, even though, no thanks are rendered back to Him most of the time by the majority of folks living within those nations. Consider"

Sovereignty is God’s authority and right to do as He will with rational creatures for His reasons, and glory.

You are translating how God sovereignly deals with His creation physically and then translating that to how you think He deals with His creation spiritually. You are wrong in doing so. God has made certain promises with respect to the life in the next world after this one. God does not impute the sin of Adam to all humanity and thus assign all but a few chosen ones to eternal condemnation as you describe and believe. But sadly, your whole perspective, theologically and soteriologically, in God's dealing spiritually with mankind is built upon that falsehood.

God does not hide behind the curtain of total depravity as you claim. He did not produce the huge volume of His written revelation, the Bible, and then keep it hidden from all but the few so-called regenerated elect. The Bible is comprehensible to the ordinary human being with reasonable intelligence and availability of its content, either by reading in directly or through the preaching and teaching of others.

He can forgive or judge as He sees fit – different men in different ways for the same sins, such as destroying Eli and his sons while saving David and his sons alive, etc., etc.

That is indeed true, but that has only to do with treating them physically in this world. It has nothing directly to do with them spiritually in the next world. Red, He let, as I have read elsewhere, all but one of the apostles of Jesus Christ be tortured and killed in this world. But that had nothing to do with their life in their life to come.

We both agree that we are justified by faith. But you would claim that faith is a gift from God given only to a select predetermined and predestined few. I believe in all my heart such a travesty is wholly foreign to God. He is not so cruel as you present Him to be.

Sovereignty is God’s choice and efforts to save whom He will by His own means of eternal life. He owes damnation to all, salvation to none, and if He saved one it is pure sovereign grace.

But you have determined that God's choice and efforts to saved whom He will as completely independent of the one being saved. And because you have determined that you twist and distort such passages as John 1:12 to make it seem that you are correct, but you are not. You said, "He owes damnation to all, salvation to none". That is simply not true. He has made promises to His creation, and He is obligated by His own righteousness to keep those promises. He owes that to all mankind.

Did He owe damnation to Adam and Eve? Or did He respond to their failure to obey? We are no different.

So much more could be said, but enough for now

Yes indeed.

 

[prism]

Go back and read reply #193.

Okay, I guess that will have to do, if that's all you have.

 

[JIM]

Okay, I guess that will have to do, if that's all you have.

I seriously doubt if it would make any difference if I quoted you anything more from the Bible beyond what I already have. You asked me how I would handle John1:12 in light of Matthew 11:27. I did that. So I don't know what more you a looking for. I don't see any conflict between what I said and the verse you asked about.

I am curious how do you handle Jesus' command or challenge, "Come to me", in Matthew 28? It seems to me to be an open invitation. Same with the "Take my yoke upon you" invitation for Jesus in verse 29.

Clearly, Jesus is not asking that one come to him and take his yoke and then not reveal the Father to them. But if you see it different, I will consider it.

 

[Arial]

I seriously doubt if it would make any difference if I quoted you anything more from the Bible beyond what I already have. You asked me how I would handle John1:12 in light of Matthew 11:27. I did that. So I don't know what more you a looking for. I don't see any conflict between what I said and the verse you asked about.

I am curious how do you handle Jesus' command or challenge, "Come to me", in Matthew 28? It seems to me to be an open invitation. Same with the "Take my yoke upon you" invitation for Jesus in verse 29.

Clearly, Jesus is not asking that one come to him and take his yoke and then not reveal the Father to them. But if you see it different, I will consider it.

Who comes to him though, according to Jesus?

John 6:36-37 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

44. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

63-65. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and life. But some of you do not believe. (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

 

[JIM]

44. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

45. It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

 

[JIM]

63-65. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and life. But some of you do not believe. (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

That is called foreknowledge.

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

 

[prism]

45. It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

So, not necessarily all who hear from the Father come to the Son otherwise all would be saved...

Foreknowledge saves no one or damns anyone.

 

[Eleanor]

So, not necessarily all who hear from the Father come to the Son otherwise all would be saved...

Foreknowledge saves no one or damns anyone.

God's foreknowledge (prognosis) is of his own actions, which he decreed before time began, and which actions do damn and save.