Where did Enoch and Elijah go then?

[ReverendRV]

If they were translated to be as Jesus is now, how can they die again in the middle of the great tribulation?

Great question!

Maybe the Two Witnesses aren't Enoch and Elijah...

Maybe their Bodies are the Temporary bodies we have in Heaven...

But that's a good question I haven't thought about...

 

[Deleted member 5]

If they were translated to be as Jesus is now, how can they die again in the middle of the great tribulation?

Die again? They hadn't died the first time.

 

[ChristB4us]

Great question!

Maybe the Two Witnesses aren't Enoch and Elijah...

Maybe...

Maybe their Bodies are the Temporary bodies we have in Heaven...

Temporary bodies? We are spirits until the firstfruits of the resurrection at the rapture event. That is how I understood it anyway for those abiding in Him & His words by His grace & by His help.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

There will many saints that are dead and living that will not be taken at that time when they are in unrepentant iniquity. The living will be left behind and the dead not resurrected will have to wait until after the great tribulation for their resurrection as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

But that's a good question I haven't thought about...

Well, at least you see why and how I was seeing it as Enoch & Elijah as neither had died yet and yet will die halfway through the great tribulation. That was why I tied in John 3:13 of no man having ascended yet except Jesus first, & 1 Corinthians 15:50 for no flesh & blood inherit the kingdom of Heaven. They seem to align with that hypothesis but since we prophesy in part and know in part, it could very well not be Enoch & Elijah, even though Elijah was prophesied to come.

 

[ChristB4us]

Die again? They hadn't died the first time.

Right. Sorry. But for being translated to be like Jesus to never die again, how then can they die if they were to be those two witnesses?

 

[Deleted member 5]

Right. Sorry. But for being translated to be like Jesus to never die again, how then can they die if they were to be those two witnesses?

Perhaps because it is appointed unto men once to die, and that is their appointed time to die?

 

[ReverendRV]

Maybe...

Temporary bodies? We are spirits until the firstfruits of the resurrection at the rapture event. That is how I understood it anyway for those abiding in Him & His words by His grace & by His help.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

There will many saints that are dead and living that will not be taken at that time when they are in unrepentant iniquity. The living will be left behind and the dead not resurrected will have to wait until after the great tribulation for their resurrection as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

Well, at least you see why and how I was seeing it as Enoch & Elijah as neither had died yet and yet will die halfway through the great tribulation. That was why I tied in John 3:13 of no man having ascended yet except Jesus first, & 1 Corinthians 15:50 for no flesh & blood inherit the kingdom of Heaven. They seem to align with that hypothesis but since we prophesy in part and know in part, it could very well not be Enoch & Elijah, even though Elijah was prophesied to come.

It's a good point to ponder. When I say temporary bodies, I mean the White Garments. I've always looked at them as temporary housing of Souls...

 

[ChristB4us]

Perhaps because it is appointed unto men once to die, and that is their appointed time to die?

Well, then they could not be translated to be like Jesus to never die again.

So if it is still them, then they are still flesh & blood in order for them to die at that time in the great tribulation.

 

[ReverendRV]

Well, then they could not be translated to be like Jesus to never die again.

So if it is still them, then they are still flesh & blood in order for them to die at that time in the great tribulation.

Give me time, I'll figure it out

 

[makesends]

All spirits of the hopeful saints were in Abraham's bosom until Christ's resurrection & ascension to Heaven.

Evidence in scriptures that the spirits of the O.T. saints were beneath the earth.

1 Samuel 28th Chapter

Key verses are below;

1 Samuel 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. 15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

Some say that it was not really Samuel but it was because he had prophesied to Saul that he and his sons would die in battle and it did happen.

Plus, the Bible would not say it was Samuel that had spoken if it really wasn't him.

I believe that it was indeed Samuel. What I don't believe is that the fact him saying "Bring me up Samuel" means anything other than perhaps him believing Samuel was in the grave/Sheol/bosom of Abraham/whatever, underground, and even that is not proven for sure here. Samuel saying so seems more compelling, but he could have been playing to Saul's mindset. What the woman says she saw is not significant to the question, in my mind, anymore than what Samuel said.

Remember that Hebrew is a very distant and old language. Figures of speech are common in any language, and even in modern English, one might say, "come on up" as easily as, "come on down", without it necessarily referring to any actual change of altitude. But in old languages, colloquialisms and figures of speech change a lot.

We don't know that it even meant that Saul thought Samuel was in some land-of-the-dead, nevermind to take it to mean that he actually WAS underground.

 

[makesends]

Die again? They hadn't died the first time.

Thank you! Exactly!

Not only that, but I think it was altogether possible for Lazarus to have died again after being resurrected.

 

[ReverendRV]

Thank you! Exactly!

Not only that, but I think it was altogether possible for Lazarus to have died again after being resurrected.

This is probably the answer...

 

[ChristB4us]

I believe that it was indeed Samuel. What I don't believe is that the fact him saying "Bring me up Samuel" means anything other than perhaps him believing Samuel was in the grave/Sheol/bosom of Abraham/whatever, underground, and even that is not proven for sure here. Samuel saying so seems more compelling, but he could have been playing to Saul's mindset. What the woman says she saw is not significant to the question, in my mind, anymore than what Samuel said.

Remember that Hebrew is a very distant and old language. Figures of speech are common in any language, and even in modern English, one might say, "come on up" as easily as, "come on down", without it necessarily referring to any actual change of altitude. But in old languages, colloquialisms and figures of speech change a lot.

We don't know that it even meant that Saul thought Samuel was in some land-of-the-dead, nevermind to take it to mean that he actually WAS underground.

Don't forget what Samuel said.

1 Samuel 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?

I also apply Jesus account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus for how the rich man was in hell and Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom which was across the great gulf from hell, thus insinuating and aligning with scripture in Samuel as Abraham's bosom as being beneath the earth.

Luke 16:19-31

 

[ReverendRV]

Don't forget what Samuel said.

1 Samuel 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?

I also apply Jesus account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus for how the rich man was in hell and Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom which was across the great gulf from hell, thus insinuating and aligning with scripture in Samuel as Abraham's bosom as being beneath the earth.

Luke 16:19-31

I was just contemplating Samuel...

Most Theologians say this Lazarus is a different Lazarus, so it doesn't help the discussion. It would help the discussion if you can give a Positive reason they are the same person...

 

[ChristB4us]

Thank you! Exactly!

Not only that, but I think it was altogether possible for Lazarus to have died again after being resurrected.

This is probably the answer...

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

 

[ReverendRV]

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

I was thinking about this as well...

The answer just may be that the two Witnesses aren't Elijah and Enoch. I'm a Fundamentalist. Given that they cannot die anymore, they are not in the Third Heaven, or the Witnesses are not Enoch and Elijah...

But if they are in Abraham's Bosom, they can return and die. Fundamentalism is a great Hermeneutic...

 

[ChristB4us]

I was thinking about this as well...

The answer just may be that the two Witnesses aren't Elijah and Enoch. I'm a Fundamentalist. Given that they cannot die anymore, they are not in the Third Heaven, or the Witnesses are not Enoch and Elijah...

But if they are in Abraham's Bosom, they can return and die. Fundamentalism is a great Hermeneutic...

I reckon when we see Him face to face, we wll know for sure then but I am led to believe the two are Enoch & Elijah for those two witnesses in the first half of the great tribulation.

 

[ReverendRV]

I reckon when we see Him face to face, we wll know for sure then but I am led to believe the two are Enoch & Elijah for those two witnesses in the first half of the great tribulation.

Good...

We haven't agreed to disagree, but pressed one another...

 

[makesends]

Don't forget what Samuel said.

1 Samuel 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?

Yes. I had just finished mentioning that. Maybe you didn't see that I had dealt with it.

I also apply Jesus account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus for how the rich man was in hell and Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom which was across the great gulf from hell, thus insinuating and aligning with scripture in Samuel as Abraham's bosom as being beneath the earth.

Luke 16:19-31

I would be wary of drawing logistical truth, nevermind Doctrine concerning the story's narrative, from a parable: This was a story, likely a story wound around common perceptions that the people of the time held concerning such things, told for the purpose of getting a point across. There is very little we can know for sure concerning hell, from the story. The point(s) of the story is what we can know for sure: 1. God does not judge us as we judge ourselves. The ones that justify themselves on their own merit are lost. 2. "Even if one returns from the dead they will not listen to him."

 

[makesends]

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Ha! I go from the take that there are none worthy to obtain that world, but that is a cheap argument. That they cannot die anymore is talking about the condition of eternal life. I have eternal life now, but will still die physically. Do you think Lazarus (no, not the beggar) could not be resurrected once as miracle to show the power of God, and again as one of the redeemed resurrected at last?

We give way too mechanical a notion of how spiritual reality works. To go with your kind of logic, I should say, "Doesn't God say his ways are not our ways? So why are you going there terrestrially with your logic, as though to 'die anymore' in Luke 20:36 is the same kind of physical as what we have now?" See? We really don't know what we are talking about to submit the spiritual to our mathematical equations.

 

[Marilyn C]

The Two Witness had to have witnessed Jesus life, death, resurrection and ascension. God`s word says they are the TWO MEN - MOSES and ELIJAH. They will witness to Israel of Jesus - Lord and Christ, (Messiah).

`Then behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.` (Luke 9: 30 & 31)

Here we read of the Lord talking to two men, Moses and Elijah concerning what He was about to do - go to the cross. Then later we see these same two men at other significant times - the tomb and the ascension.

`And it happened, as they were greatly perplexed about this, that behold, two men stood by them in shining garments. Then as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they (the two men) said to them (disciples) "Why do you seek the living among the dead? he is not here, but is risen...` (Luke 24: 4 - 6)

`And while they looked steadfastly towards heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." (Acts 1: 10 & 11)

Thus we see that these `two men,` Moses and Elijah knew of the Lord`s sacrifice, His burial and resurrection and finally His ascension into heaven. They are precisely the two men who will be qualified to talk to Israel in the tribulation, for they represent the `law and the Prophets,` and are a `witness` to the Messiah - His death, resurrection and ascension.

That is why they are called `witnesses.` What have they witnessed? - Jesus on earth, talking of His departure, His resurrection and ascension, plus speaking of His return in like manner. Who best qualified to speak of those things but the two witnesses - eye witnesses - Moses & Elijah.