Where did Enoch and Elijah go then?

[makesends]

The Two Witness had to have witnessed Jesus life, death, resurrection and ascension. God`s word says they are the TWO MEN - MOSES and ELIJAH. They will witness to Israel of Jesus - Lord and Christ, (Messiah).

`Then behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.` (Luke 9: 30 & 31)

Here we read of the Lord talking to two men, Moses and Elijah concerning what He was about to do - go to the cross. Then later we see these same two men at other significant times - the tomb and the ascension.

`And it happened, as they were greatly perplexed about this, that behold, two men stood by them in shining garments. Then as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they (the two men) said to them (disciples) "Why do you seek the living among the dead? he is not here, but is risen...` (Luke 24: 4 - 6)

`And while they looked steadfastly towards heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." (Acts 1: 10 & 11)

Thus we see that these `two men,` Moses and Elijah knew of the Lord`s sacrifice, His burial and resurrection and finally His ascension into heaven. They are precisely the two men who will be qualified to talk to Israel in the tribulation, for they represent the `law and the Prophets,` and are a `witness` to the Messiah - His death, resurrection and ascension.

That is why they are called `witnesses.` What have they witnessed? - Jesus on earth, talking of His departure, His resurrection and ascension, plus speaking of His return in like manner. Who best qualified to speak of those things but the two witnesses - eye witnesses - Moses & Elijah.

That is at least poetic. Thanks for the good thoughts.

 

[jeremiah1five]

That's another interesting question. Where did the Garden of Eden go? God could have hidden it but instead placed an Angel to guard it. Be a little difficult to miss in this day and age.

Like Noah's Ark. God opens the eye, and He closes the eye.
On the last day Noah's Ark will be seen.
And the angels guarding the way to the Garden will be relieved of duty.

 

[ChristB4us]

Yes. I had just finished mentioning that. Maybe you didn't see that I had dealt with it.

I did not. What post #? I know you had address in one about Saul asking Samuel to be brought up but I pointed out that Samuel said the same thing that he was brought up.

I would be wary of drawing logistical truth, nevermind Doctrine concerning the story's narrative, from a parable: This was a story, likely a story wound around common perceptions that the people of the time held concerning such things, told for the purpose of getting a point across. There is very little we can know for sure concerning hell, from the story. The point(s) of the story is what we can know for sure: 1. God does not judge us as we judge ourselves. The ones that justify themselves on their own merit are lost. 2. "Even if one returns from the dead they will not listen to him."

Some believers say it was not a parable for he would have said that it was a parable.

But there is a verse that says..

Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

So what secret was revealed by that parable of the rich man and Lazarus? "Even if one returns from the dead they will not listen to him." seems to be that this had to have happened for this to be said to be true and so I believe Jesus was telling an actual account, a secret from the afterlife.

 

[ChristB4us]

Ha! I go from the take that there are none worthy to obtain that world, but that is a cheap argument. That they cannot die anymore is talking about the condition of eternal life. I have eternal life now, but will still die physically. Do you think Lazarus (no, not the beggar) could not be resurrected once as miracle to show the power of God, and again as one of the redeemed resurrected at last?

We give way too mechanical a notion of how spiritual reality works. To go with your kind of logic, I should say, "Doesn't God say his ways are not our ways? So why are you going there terrestrially with your logic, as though to 'die anymore' in Luke 20:36 is the same kind of physical as what we have now?" See? We really don't know what we are talking about to submit the spiritual to our mathematical equations.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

There are two kinds of inheritance. The firstfruits of the resurrection as mentioned above, vessels of gold & silver as vessels unto honor.

And those risen from the dead after the great tribulation as they are they that be Christ's at His coming as vessels unto dishonor, vessels of wood & earth, where the power of the second death will not be over them but does that mean the power of the first death still will? Looks that way plus they will be marrying in raising up the next generation from all over the world in serving the King of kings in that thousand year reign.

That is how I apply Luke 20:34-36 to mean as those after the great tribulation that are risen will be of that world and marry and be given in marriage.

 

[makesends]

I did not. What post #? I know you had address in one about Saul asking Samuel to be brought up but I pointed out that Samuel said the same thing that he was brought up.

Post #49 "Samuel saying so seems more compelling, but he could have been playing to Saul's mindset."

Some believers say it was not a parable for he would have said that it was a parable.

Does he say so to introduce all the other parables, before he begins to tell the story? Or do the writers of the accounts? Nevertheless, (parable or no), it is a story —I know of no reason to insist that it is an instructional reference work concerning the relationship between Hades and "The Bosom of Abraham".

But there is a verse that says..

Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

So what secret was revealed by that parable of the rich man and Lazarus? "Even if one returns from the dead they will not listen to him." seems to be that this had to have happened for this to be said to be true and so I believe Jesus was telling an actual account, a secret from the afterlife.

Are you suggesting that they had never before heard of a great gulf and the heat of hell and the Bosom of Abraham? It certainly sounds to me like he didn't have to say much about it for those listening to have some familiarity with the concept.

But, regardless, I don't see any reason to believe that it had to have been a true account of an actual event, for Jesus to have told the story to make his point(s).

 

[makesends]

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

There are two kinds of inheritance. The firstfruits of the resurrection as mentioned above, vessels of gold & silver as vessels unto honor.

And those risen from the dead after the great tribulation as they are they that be Christ's at His coming as vessels unto dishonor, vessels of wood & earth, where the power of the second death will not be over them but does that mean the power of the first death still will? Looks that way plus they will be marrying in raising up the next generation from all over the world in serving the King of kings in that thousand year reign.

That is how I apply Luke 20:34-36 to mean as those after the great tribulation that are risen will be of that world and marry and be given in marriage.

Yes, I know that is how you apply it. Very logical, once the presumption has been made of applying temporal concepts to the spiritual.

But I agree that once this present world is destroyed, there will not be another resurrection. Admit it, there is a lot we don't know. It is not safe to jump to conclusions.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

I think it would mean by heaven that it is "in the heavens" which would include Abraham's bosom.

I don't think that under the earth qualifies as a "heaven". As I understand it ( for the 3rd or 4th time here ) both Abraham's Bosom and Gehenna were "below" and for the dead.

Enoch and Elijah were taken up while still alive.

Sorry if this comes across as snippy.

 

[Deleted member 5]

I don't think that under the earth qualifies as a "heaven". As I understand it ( for the 3rd or 4th time here ) both Abraham's Bosom and Gehenna were "below" and for the dead.

If it is called paradise I highly doubt it. So to you hell is underground? If so, can we excavate to its locale?

Enoch and Elijah were taken up while still alive.

I agree. Do you think the angels who took Lazarus, took him underground? (Luke 16:19-31)

Sorry if this comes across as snippy.

You're uptight a lot, but no worries.

 

[makesends]

So to you hell is underground? If so, can we excavate to its locale?

If we are to believe the internet tabloid clickbait, yeah, they know where to dig, but they are 'terrified' to do so.

(And all that, I got from the title line of the clickbait— there's a lot of information out there!)

 

[Deleted member 5]

If we are to believe the internet tabloid clickbait, yeah, they know where to dig, but they are 'terrified' to do so.

(And all that, I got from the title line of the clickbait— there's a lot of information out there!)

I recall years ago a story about a microphone being dropped way down into the earth and picking up screaming voices.

I believe it has been debunked.

Plus there have been a few people these days that have been there and came back. Not even a singed hair, mind you.

Then there are the ones who claim to make frequent trips to and from heaven.

 

[makesends]

I recall years ago a story about a microphone being dropped way down into the earth and picking up screaming voices.

I believe it has been debunked.

Plus there have been a few people these days that have been there and came back. Not even a singed hair, mind you.

Then there are the ones who claim to make frequent trips to and from heaven.

On another site I know a guy who on a drug overdose died and went to Hell, and God brought him back, and told him he was now an apostle, and anyone who disagreed with him was disagreeing with God. I had to give him credit for coming up with a different way to try to win arguments.

Oh, and he also told me, when I asked if he ever sinned, that *I* sinned, but *he* only "stumbled".

 

[ChristB4us]

Post #49 "Samuel saying so seems more compelling, but he could have been playing to Saul's mindset."

Samuel being grieved & saying why, I doubt that be the case.

Does he say so to introduce all the other parables, before he begins to tell the story? Or do the writers of the accounts? Nevertheless, (parable or no), it is a story —I know of no reason to insist that it is an instructional reference work concerning the relationship between Hades and "The Bosom of Abraham".

Are you suggesting that they had never before heard of a great gulf and the heat of hell and the Bosom of Abraham? It certainly sounds to me like he didn't have to say much about it for those listening to have some familiarity with the concept.

But, regardless, I don't see any reason to believe that it had to have been a true account of an actual event, for Jesus to have told the story to make his point(s).

1 Samuel 28th chapter gives the basis for why they should take Jesus's story as an actual account.

 

[ChristB4us]

Yes, I know that is how you apply it. Very logical, once the presumption has been made of applying temporal concepts to the spiritual.

More scripture to confirm this since the firstfruits of the resurrection are the vessels unto honor, the vessels of gold & silver whereas the vessels unto dishonor, those that did not depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes, are damned as such as vessels of wood & earth, everlasting shame, to be resurrected after the great tribulation to serve the King of kings on earth from all over the world in raising up the next generation as they will be marrying and raising children & such.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

But I agree that once this present world is destroyed, there will not be another resurrection.
Admit it, there is a lot we don't know. It is not safe to jump to conclusions.

Well, there is a resurrection of the rest of the dead at the Great White Throne Judgment and there will be a new heaven and a new earth for that thousand year reign before then, but I am not sure if that will happen again after the Great White Throne Judgement before Jesus gives the Kingdom of Heaven back to the Father.

 

[makesends]

Samuel being grieved & saying why, I doubt that be the case.

1 Samuel 28th chapter gives the basis for why they should take Jesus's story as an actual account.

More than grieved. Grumpy and possibly sarcastic.

Is that last sentence an assertion, or an "in summary" statement? But, either way, I disagree. It is a story, like any teacher uses. It is not meant for anything but his reason to tell it, which he gives, not as logistical or geographical instruction, but spiritual.

 

[makesends]

More scripture to confirm this since the firstfruits of the resurrection are the vessels unto honor, the vessels of gold & silver whereas the vessels unto dishonor, those that did not depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes, are damned as such as vessels of wood & earth, everlasting shame, to be resurrected after the great tribulation to serve the King of kings on earth from all over the world in raising up the next generation as they will be marrying and raising children & such.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Well, there is a resurrection of the rest of the dead at the Great White Throne Judgment and there will be a new heaven and a new earth for that thousand year reign before then, but I am not sure if that will happen again after the Great White Throne Judgement before Jesus gives the Kingdom of Heaven back to the Father.

"Precept upon precept, a little here, a little there..." Isaiah 28:10 Be careful not to declare as fact, speculative construction.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

If it is called paradise I highly doubt it. So to you hell is underground? If so, can we excavate to its locale?

Don't *you* be silly. We don't know save through tradition. For all we know it could be a planet and a black hole...but the way it's described ( Sheol and Gehenna are not the same but are used similarly ) is underground. That "Paradise" and "Gehenna" are described next to each other but with a fixed gulf...simplest explanation is the same area.

I agree. Do you think the angels who took Lazarus, took him underground? (Luke 16:19-31)

Ooo...good point. Now it's a jump ball. All that's left really are how dead spirits can carry water ( or not ) and suffer from heat. I guess it's that translated thing. But still...it begs the question of "where were they?". Also how did Paradise differ from Heaven?

Also, also...both ( Lazarus and the Rich man ) were dead. Not alive. Now I'm willing to concede that maybe Enoch and Elijah were parked with a bunch of righteous dead people in an alternate dimension *like* heaven called "Paradise" but we aren't told that. And we get the impression that they were taken by angels too God or by God himself. So...what now?

You're uptight a lot, but no worries.

I believe that diamonds have been mentioned. But I think that was a bit of an over statement.

 

[Deleted member 5]

Don't *you* be silly. We don't know save through tradition.

How am I being silly? You're the one that stated it was in the Earth, right? And look, I'm so silly, I got you to make my point below:

For all we know it could be a planet and a black hole...but the way it's described ( Sheol and Gehenna are not the same but are used similarly ) is underground. That "Paradise" and "Gehenna" are described next to each other but with a fixed gulf...simplest explanation is the same area.

Good job!

Ooo...good point.

I know, and I have lots of good points.

Now it's a jump ball. All that's left really are how dead spirits can carry water ( or not ) and suffer from heat. I guess it's that translated thing. But still...it begs the question of "where were they?".

Well, now, now, look who's being silly.

Also how did Paradise differ from Heaven?

Dunno, ain't been there yet. Probably lots` of remodeling? Room building? Couple of flipped houses?

Also, also...both ( Lazarus and the Rich man ) were dead. Not alive.

That's funny, they appeared alive, one was well, the other not so much.

Now I'm willing to concede that maybe Enoch and Elijah were parked with a bunch of righteous dead people in an alternate dimension *like* heaven called "Paradise" but we aren't told that. And we get the impression that they were taken by angels too God or by God himself. So...what now?

Dunno, we will see what you come up with next.

I believe that diamonds have been mentioned. But I think that was a bit of an over statement.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

How am I being silly? You're the one that stated it was in the Earth, right? And look, I'm so silly, I got you to make my point below:

Good job!

I know, and I have lots of good points.

Well, now, now, look who's being silly.

Dunno, ain't been there yet. Probably lots` of remodeling? Room building? Couple of flipped houses?

That's funny, they appeared alive, one was well, the other not so much.

Dunno, we will see what you come up with next.

Goodness...I think I'm pretty much done, brother. Still convinced they were brought to God but I've enjoyed the conversation.

 

[ChristB4us]

"Precept upon precept, a little here, a little there..." Isaiah 28:10 Be careful not to declare as fact, speculative construction.

In context, one should apply that to how they ignore His words about how Jesus is the only ay to come to God the Father by in anything, worship, prayer, & fellowship and yet they broaden the way by including the Holy Spirit as if He is Another way to come to God the Father by in honoring Him. Not.

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. 14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me...

What happen sometimes when they worship the Holy Spirit or pray to the holy Spirit or honoring Him on Pentecost? A phenomenon happens where they lose self control & fall backwards. That is what they get for coming to God in the other "broad" way for miracles and signs and lying wonders.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it....

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Proverbs 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. 27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. 28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Dare any believer, let alone a church, continue to follow church traditions by not heeding His words in how to come to God the father by and the only way to honor the Father by when the consequence of that iniquity is being left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event?

As for finding the truth in His words and for rightly dividing the word of truth, one can ask Jesus & trust Him for that wisdom.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

 

[makesends]

In context, one should apply that to how they ignore His words about how Jesus is the only ay to come to God the Father by in anything, worship, prayer, & fellowship and yet they broaden the way by including the Holy Spirit as if He is Another way to come to God the Father by in honoring Him. Not.

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. 14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me...

What happen sometimes when they worship the Holy Spirit or pray to the holy Spirit or honoring Him on Pentecost? A phenomenon happens where they lose self control & fall backwards. That is what they get for coming to God in the other "broad" way for miracles and signs and lying wonders.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it....

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Proverbs 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. 27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. 28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Dare any believer, let alone a church, continue to follow church traditions by not heeding His words in how to come to God the father by and the only way to honor the Father by when the consequence of that iniquity is being left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event?

As for finding the truth in His words and for rightly dividing the word of truth, one can ask Jesus & trust Him for that wisdom.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Well, I'll give you credit. You do have an awfully busy mind. But your conclusions are way too easily arrived at for me. You use application of your interpretation as though it was doctrine, from which you find your interpretation all over again to verify your application. Or something. I haven't figured it out yet. So sure of your notions. Amazing.

But, I gotta be careful here, because I'm the one going to be measured by my own standard, so...