What Type of Calvinist am I -discussion thread

[Carbon]

The below was not written by me and does not necessarily reflect my beliefs.

Written by @Buff Scott Jr.

“WHAT TYPE OF CALVINIST AM I?”

Let’s Start With Calvin
Question: “Do we have a will?” Yes, of course we have a will. [John] Calvin said, ‘If you mean by a free will a faculty of choosing by which you have the power within yourself to choose what you desire, then we all have free will. If you mean by free will the ability for fallen human beings to incline themselves and exercise that will to choose the things of God without the prior work of regeneration, then free will is far too grandiose a term to apply to a human being.’ ”

Interpretation
As per the mindset of the average Calvinist, man has a free will and can choose to do anything in his natural environment, but his free will and ability to choose ends at that point. He cannot exercise free will and choose to obey God until he is “regenerated.” Hyper-Calvinists claim that he must be born again before he can come to the Lord. If you will compare that sentiment to numerous biblical passages that teach the opposite, you will find that this dogma collides with heaven’s testimony. Jesus clearly says a man may choose whether or not to obey God. But how may he choose unless he is endowed with free will? Note, please, Jesus’ words in John 7:17:
“If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God...”

Quickened, Made Alive, Regenerated
But is he quickened, made alive, or regenerated prior to his choosing to obey God? A receptive person is quickened or made alive when he hears the message of salvation. Up to that point, he is “dead”—inactive, dormant—to the things of God. But when he hears the message of salvation, he “comes alive,” is “quickened,” or “regenerated.” However, this does not translate into being born again. It is only the beginning of the new birth process, as “faith comes by hearing the message” [of salvation] (Rom. 10:17). The new birth cannot be experienced without faith, without reformation (repentance), and without complete surrender to the Lord’s injunctions. Listen to the writer of the Book of Hebrews:

“And without faith it is impossible to please God” (Heb. 11:6).

[More Later]

 

[Carbon]

Post by: @Red Baker

“WHAT TYPE OF CALVINIST AM I?”

Let’s Start With Calvin
Question: “Do we have a will?” Yes, of course we have a will. [John] Calvin said, ‘If you mean by a free will a faculty of choosing by which you have the power within yourself to choose what you desire, then we all have free will. If you mean by free will the ability for fallen human beings to incline themselves and exercise that will to choose the things of God without the prior work of regeneration, then free will is far too grandiose a term to apply to a human being.’ ”

The question is not whether we have a will~but is it free to choose righteousness over sin, truth over falsehood, to love God over the over this world and the thing therein~the power to believe, without first being born of God, that's the sum argument.

Why start with Calvin? He was just a man, like all of us, even though a man of God, with much practical wisdom, which is evident in reading some of his works. John Calvin would not want this to be about him, but what saith the word of God should be all we are concern about.

"What type of bible believer Am I?" Is all I truly want others to think of me when my name is mentioned. Calvinism is a misnomer, since there are tons of folks who believe in election of grace, who are called Calvinist. Tons believe in infant baptism who are called Calvinist. Most believe in gospel means who are called Calvinist. Many believe in perseverance of the saints that are called Calvinist. Some believe in single predestination, etc.; I will not fall into most of these categories, yet my doctrine is "high/hyper" Calvinist.

If a name needs to be attached to one's Soteriology, then I would fall under high/hyper Calvinism which is one and the same. I'm not ashamed to be put into the same breath as those Calvinist of the 1500-1800's~actually, not worthy to be!

Quickened, Made Alive, Regenerated
But is he quickened, made alive, or regenerated prior to his choosing to obey God? A receptive person is quickened or made alive when he hears the message of salvation. Up to that point, he is “dead”—inactive, dormant—to the things of God. But when he hears the message of salvation, he “comes alive,” is “quickened,” or “regenerated.” However, this does not translate into being born again. It is only the beginning of the new birth process, as “faith comes by hearing the message” [of salvation] (Rom. 10:17). The new birth cannot be experienced without faith, without reformation (repentance), and without complete surrender to the Lord’s injunctions. Listen to the writer of the Book of Hebrews:

I'm coming back to address this very soon, the Lord willing. I do not want to rush myself.

 

[sawdust]

Post by: @Red Baker

The question is not whether we have a will~but is it free to choose righteousness over sin, truth over falsehood, to love God over the over this world and the thing therein~the power to believe, without first being born of God, that's the sum argument.

Why start with Calvin? He was just a man, like all of us, even though a man of God, with much practical wisdom, which is evident in reading some of his works. John Calvin would not want this to be about him, but what saith the word of God should be all we are concern about.

"What type of bible believer Am I?" Is all I truly want others to think of me when my name is mentioned. Calvinism is a misnomer, since there are tons of folks who believe in election of grace, who are called Calvinist. Tons believe in infant baptism who are called Calvinist. Most believe in gospel means who are called Calvinist. Many believe in perseverance of the saints that are called Calvinist. Some believe in single predestination, etc.; I will not fall into most of these categories, yet my doctrine is "high/hyper" Calvinist.

If a name needs to be attached to one's Soteriology, then I would fall under high/hyper Calvinism which is one and the same. I'm not ashamed to be put into the same breath as those Calvinist of the 1500-1800's~actually, not worthy to be!

I'm coming back to address this very soon, the Lord willing. I do not want to rush myself.

I agree with Calvin up to the point of "regenerated prior to his choosing to obey God". I see in your post that the author you quote argues against Calvin at this point too. I recognise you still wish to address this issue so I look forward to hearing what you have to say on the matter.

I'm in no rush.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Post by: @Red Baker

The question is not whether we have a will~but is it free to choose righteousness over sin, truth over falsehood, to love God over the over this world and the thing therein~the power to believe, without first being born of God, that's the sum argument.

Why start with Calvin? He was just a man, like all of us, even though a man of God, with much practical wisdom, which is evident in reading some of his works. John Calvin would not want this to be about him, but what saith the word of God should be all we are concern about.

"What type of bible believer Am I?" Is all I truly want others to think of me when my name is mentioned. Calvinism is a misnomer, since there are tons of folks who believe in election of grace, who are called Calvinist. Tons believe in infant baptism who are called Calvinist. Most believe in gospel means who are called Calvinist. Many believe in perseverance of the saints that are called Calvinist. Some believe in single predestination, etc.; I will not fall into most of these categories, yet my doctrine is "high/hyper" Calvinist.

If a name needs to be attached to one's Soteriology, then I would fall under high/hyper Calvinism which is one and the same. I'm not ashamed to be put into the same breath as those Calvinist of the 1500-1800's~actually, not worthy to be!

I'm coming back to address this very soon, the Lord willing. I do not want to rush myself.

Carbon:

If I might add a few more comments/responses on your post, as well as to a few other posts on Calvinism.

More On Man’s Ability To Choose God

To extricate the idea that man is incapable of choosing God, Romans, chapter 1, needs to be revisited and appraised. Paul writes about the wickedness of man, apparently the Gentile pagans, and says that “what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them...from what has been made [created things], so that men are without excuse.”

He goes on to say, “Although they knew God [His eternal power and divine nature], they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him” (Rom. 1:18-32). Paul continues by saying that “they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God” (v. 28). Here is what we have:

1) These Gentile pagans knew God through the revelation of creation.
2) They were free to either choose God or reject Him through the only revelation to which they had access.
3) They were free to glorify God and offer their thanksgiving.
4) They even retained the knowledge of God, but cast it aside.
5) Had they glorified God and given Him thanks, they would have become part of the elect, but since they refused Him, they remained part of the non-elect.

Clarfying The Above
1. Any competent person upon the face of God’s footstool may seek Him, find Him, and choose Him. “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he will give eternal life” (Rom. 2:7). As verse 9 reveals, Paul is talking about “every human being.”

2. If God enables a man to seek Him, He also gives him the ability to choose Him! Here’s another clincher: Paul, in referring to the entire human family, writes, “God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each of us” (Acts 17:27).

3. But how may a man—any man—seek God and find Him if he is void of free will and the ability to choose? So, who is accessible and who does the seeking? God, of course, makes Himself available to every man, everywhere, after which some men choose to accept Him while others choose to reject Him. Those who accept Him are His elect. God knew who they were before the foundation of the universe. On that basis, predestination seems to rest.

4. The scriptures above demonstrate rather strongly that God has not constrained a segment of the population to be saved and arbitrarily by-passed all others. They establish the truth that anyone and everyone may choose to accept God or reject Him. Paul’s words—as well as Jesus’—forever dispels the main thrusts of Calvinism. There is absolutely no way to turn these facts around in an effort to give them a different meaning. Let’s put it like this:

The receptive heart will seek God and find Him. The non-receptive heart will not seek Him. He will remain dead in his sins.

The Calvinist asks, “But how does a man achieve a receptive heart? Who gave it to him? How did he come by it?” And I answer: Each person has been granted the ability to develop either a receptive heart or a non-receptive heart. In other words, God enables us to be receptive or non-receptive. The decision is ours. For if God forces a receptive heart upon those whom he foreknew, He has also forced a non-receptive heart upon those he did not foreknow. This translates into the truth that our God has compelled a segment of the population to be saved and the remainder to be lost. This bit of untruth clashes with heaven’s testimony.

Some of the Calvinists I’ve been in touch with, assert, “Man may choose, but he always chooses to disobey God, because he is so totally depraved.” This runs 100% counter to what Jesus declares. “If anyone chooses to do God’s will...” (John 7:17). The two statements cannot, under any circumstances, be reconciled. Either Jesus is wrong or the Calvinist is wrong. I’ll go with Jesus!​

 

[David1701]

I agree with Calvin up to the point of "regenerated prior to his choosing to obey God". I see in your post that the author you quote argues against Calvin at this point too. I recognise you still wish to address this issue so I look forward to hearing what you have to say on the matter.

I'm in no rush.

The Lord Jesus Christ himself declared that we MUST be born again, in order to "see" and enter the Kingdom of God. We know that we enter the Kingdom of God through faith in Jesus Christ, so there really should be no debate about this. It's as clear as day that we MUST be born again, in order to have faith in Jesus Christ.

John 3:1-7 (Webster)
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said to him, Verily, verily, I say to thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. {again: or, from above}
4 Nicodemus saith to him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say to thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said to thee, Ye must be born again. {again: or, from above}

 

[sawdust]

The Lord Jesus Christ himself declared that we MUST be born again, in order to "see" and enter the Kingdom of God. We know that we enter the Kingdom of God through faith in Jesus Christ, so there really should be no debate about this. It's as clear as day that we MUST be born again, in order to have faith in Jesus Christ.

John 3:1-7 (Webster)
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said to him, Verily, verily, I say to thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. {again: or, from above}
4 Nicodemus saith to him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say to thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said to thee, Ye must be born again. {again: or, from above}

We are saved by grace through faith, therefore I believe regeneration occurs after faith. Admittedly so close to afterwards that it can be said they happen simultaneously.

 

[David1701]

We are saved by grace through faith, therefore I believe regeneration occurs after faith. Admittedly so close to afterwards that it can be said they happen simultaneously.

Then what you believe, however rational it might appear to you, contradicts Scripture, as I have demonstrated.

 

[Carbon]

We are saved by grace through faith, therefore I believe regeneration occurs after faith. Admittedly so close to afterwards that it can be said they happen simultaneously.

Do you have any scripture to prove your view?

 

[sawdust]

Do you have any scripture to prove your view?

Basically what I quoted Eph.2:8. If we are made spiritually alive prior to faith then we would be saved by grace through regeneration.

 

[David1701]

Basically what I quoted Eph.2:8. If we are made spiritually alive prior to faith then we would be saved by grace through regeneration.

Being born again, on its own, does not save you. It gives you a new heart/spirit that is soft towards God, so that you immediately repent and believe the gospel. It is only after you have believed that you can be said to be saved.

 

[Carbon]

Basically what I quoted Eph.2:8. If we are made spiritually alive prior to faith

....

then we would be saved by grace through regeneration.

If you were made spiritually alive, that's regeneration/born again, buddy.


You seem to be saying there are two new births in the new birth (salvation)?

 

[Carbon]

Being born again,

What do you believe being born again is, thats not regeneration?

 

[David1701]

What do you believe being born again is, thats not regeneration?

Being born again is regeneration is being born from above. It's when God gives someone a new human heart/spirit that are soft towards him. This is necessary, in order to repent and believe in Jesus Christ (John 3).

If being born again was all that God gave you, then you would have a new heart/spirit, but you would still be unforgiven, which is why we can only be said to be saved once we have repented and believed in Jesus Christ.

 

[sawdust]

Being born again, on its own, does not save you

Yes it does. You have gone from being spiritually dead to being spiritually alive. You are saved. Christ died for our sin the wages of which is spiritual death. It's what He saved us from. You will never die again. Eternal security. That we are also given eternal life and a whole load of other rewards is icing on the cake.

ps. just to clarify: Regeneration is the outcome of grace through faith. If you are regenerated you are saved.

 

[sawdust]

....

If you were made spiritually alive, that's regeneration/born again, buddy.


You seem to be saying there are two new births in the new birth (salvation)?

What do you believe being born again is, thats not regeneration?

Maybe I'm just tired but your response to me and your response to @David1701 seems to be saying the opposite. Could you clarify please what you think regeneration is?

 

[David1701]

Yes it does. You have gone from being spiritually dead to being spiritually alive. You are saved. Christ died for our sin the wages of which is spiritual death. It's what He saved us from. You will never die again. Eternal security. That we are also given eternal life and a whole load of other rewards is icing on the cake.

ps. just to clarify: Regeneration is the outcome of grace through faith. If you are regenerated you are saved.

No.

Regeneration necessarily PRECEDES faith in Jesus Christ, as the Lord told Nicodemus. You MUST be born again, in order to "see" and enter the Kingdom of God; and we know that we enter the Kingdom of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

John 3:3-7 (Webster)
3 Jesus answered and said to him, Verily, verily, I say to thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. {again: or, from above}
4 Nicodemus saith to him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say to thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said to thee, Ye must be born again. {again: or, from above}

Salvation is OF THE LORD, not fallen man's sinful will.

Rom. 9:14-16 (Webster)
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? By no means.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

 

[CrowCross]

We are saved by grace through faith, therefore I believe regeneration occurs after faith. Admittedly so close to afterwards that it can be said they happen simultaneously.

I pretty much agree. I believe they all happen at the same time.

There may be some pre-loading up front, that is a person may hear the gospel....even believe there is a God....but like Lydia God must open your heart, grant you the ability to come to Christ Jesus and then during that God regenerates a person as He gives the faith to those who were dead in their sins and trespasses..

 

[CrowCross]

No.

Regeneration necessarily PRECEDES faith in Jesus Christ, as the Lord told Nicodemus. You MUST be born again, in order to "see" and enter the Kingdom of God; and we know that we enter the Kingdom of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

John 3:3-7 (Webster)
3 Jesus answered and said to him, Verily, verily, I say to thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. {again: or, from above}
4 Nicodemus saith to him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say to thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said to thee, Ye must be born again. {again: or, from above}

Salvation is OF THE LORD, not fallen man's sinful will.

Rom. 9:14-16 (Webster)
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? By no means.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

Just what do we see when one see's the Kingdom of God? To be honest I think only those who have died have seen or entered into the Kingdom of God.

 

[David1701]

Just what do we see when one see's the Kingdom of God? To be honest I think only those who have died have seen or entered into the Kingdom of God.

I put "see" in inverted commas, because "perceive" is literally correct. When you are born again, you can perceive the Kingdom of God, because you now have spiritual "eyes"; you have that life inside that perceives the life (love, holiness, perfection, righteousness, truth, vibrant aliveness, etc.) in Christ. Without that, you will never, in a million years, believe in him (not merely believe facts about him, but believe in him with all your heart).

 

[CrowCross]

I put "see" in inverted commas, because "perceive" is literally correct. When you are born again, you can perceive the Kingdom of God, because you now have spiritual "eyes"; you have that life inside that perceives the life (love, holiness, perfection, righteousness, truth, vibrant aliveness, etc.) in Christ. Without that, you will never, in a million years, believe in him (not merely believe facts about him, but believe in him with all your heart).

Thank you for that clarification.