What triggers the New Birth (Regeneration)?

[Arial]

No problem at all. PERSONALLY I was "Drawn to Him", "Convicted of SIN By Him", "Surrendered and Repented", and then everything changed.

Do you think you are the standard from which doctrine is obtained? When did you believe and what did you believe?

I'd rejected Him, and had gone back into death several times over the years before, but there was a sense that the LAST TIME might be my last chance, And I'd be forever LOST.

How exactly does a person reject Him and go BACK into death? Wouldn't the one rejecting Him already be dead in their trespasses? Are you a cat with the proverbial nine lives? How many deaths and resurrections does a person get?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Why do you not address the scriptures I posted?

Why would I address scriptures that I already agree completely with?? I've given MY interpretation, and You've given yours.

 

[Arial]

How much repenting? How much crying?.. until the new birth is sparked?

Hard to say. Evidently you can come to life, die, come to life, die, come to life, die----and when you (not a personal you) get scared that might be the last resurrection you are offered, then you get born again, this time for good. Unless you get unborn again, again, again, again.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Do you think you are the standard from which doctrine is obtained? When did you believe and what did you believe?

"Belief" doesn't mean Squat - the devils "believe".

I reacted to God's WORD TO ME that I was a lost sinner, and rife for judgement which is the beginning of FAITH. The LAST time that occurred (in '63), I was finally ready to Listen and respond in repentance, and called on HIM for salvation. Then I was CLEAN and new and everything changed. The Holy Spirit indwelling one will do that.

How did YOU become a Christian???

How exactly does a person reject Him and go BACK into death?

By REJECTING the offer of Life, of course.

Wouldn't the one rejecting Him already be dead in their trespasses?

Chuckle!!! That's what spiritually LOST people all are. God can't SAVE anybody except Lost folks after all!!

Are you a cat with the proverbial nine lives? How many deaths and resurrections does a person get?

Just one - that's quite enough.

 

[Arial]

Why would I address scriptures that I already agree completely with?? I've given MY interpretation, and You've given yours.

But you don't agree with them. You make up your own meaning and agree with yourself. You gave the scriptures to show that we are saved when we are convicted of sin and then we are reborn. The scriptures you gave weren't even talking about conviction of the Holy Spirit. So how can you be agreeing with them?

Your own testimony makes a fallacy out of your statement. Every time of the many times you were convicted of sin, your returned to it like a dog to his own vomit. So were you reborn, died again, reborn again,died again etc.? Being convicted of sin doesn't change a heart anymore than keeping the old covenant law did. (Have you stated that you are a pastor or am I thinking of someone else?) And whatever became of Jesus saying "Believe in me and you will have eternal life." What of Acts 16:30-33 Then he brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Believing in the person and work of Jesus does not seem to enter into the process of salvation with you.

 

[Red Baker]

What would you say to those who use this verse?..

Romans 10:17 KJV
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Greetings prism,

Faith does come by hearing and hearing by the word of God~but faith is not the means of being born again, at least not our faith, but Jesus' faith and obedience~he secured our right to eternal life, not one thing that we did, or could do, that would secured the righteousness required to enter into eternal life.

Faith is the results two things, it is a work of righteousness....

Matthew 23:23~"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

Faith is by Jesus' own definition, a work of the law. The apostles understood this truth:

1st John 3:23~"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."

Faith also is the fruit of the new man within us where the Spirit of God dwells. That we are commanded to put on, and walk after.

Galatians 5: 22,23~"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

There is no law that condemns these works of the new man, but commends them as honouring to God, being Christ like.

 

[Arial]

"Belief" doesn't mean Squat - the devils "believe".

You just denied the entire gospel and everything He and the apostles said about believing. The devils know exactly who Christ is and what He was doing. But they are not being given redemption.

How did YOU become a Christian???

By the power of God giving me new birth in Christ so that I could and would believe the gospel.

By REJECTING the offer of Life, of course.

Here is what you said:

I'd rejected Him, and had gone back into death several times over the years before, but there was a sense that the LAST TIME might be my last chance, And I'd be forever LOST.

How does one go back from where they already are?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

But you don't agree with them.

I don't agree with YOUR INTERPRETATION of 'em. Big difference. I assume you're speaking according to the Calvinist paradigm. I'm not a "Systematic" at all.

Your own testimony makes a fallacy out of your statement. Every time of the many times you were convicted of sin, your returned to it like a dog to his own vomit.

Yup, that's what I said.

So were you reborn, died again, reborn again,died again etc.?

Where you get THAT silliness??? I WAS NEVER REBORN - I was given the CHANCE TO BE, but rejected it and NEVER REpented, not asked for salvation - so How was I "Reborn"????

Being convicted of sin doesn't change a heart anymore than keeping the old covenant law did.

But It DOES LET YOU KNOW that you have a Spiritual problem.

(Have you stated that you are a pastor or am I thinking of someone else?)

I'm a Mechanical Engineer, not a pastor.

And whatever became of Jesus saying "Believe in me and you will have eternal life." What of Acts 16:30-33 Then he brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Believing in the person and work of Jesus does not seem to enter into the process of salvation with you.

Because "Belief" (intellectual assent) doesn't mean SPIT. Salvation is By FAITH which comes from Rom 10:17, has to have the attributes in Heb 11:1 - i.e. "Substance" and EVIDENCE. Intellectual assent has niether. SO "believeing" (intellectual assent) according to normal use, saves NOBODY - FAITH does (Eph 2:8,9).

 

[Bob Carabbio]

You just denied the entire gospel and everything He and the apostles said about believing. The devils know exactly who Christ is and what He was doing. But they are not being given redemption.

So much for "Belief" (intellectual assent). FAITH is a different breed of cat. it has "SUBSTANCE", and is an "EVIDENCE" of what you don't see.

By the power of God giving me new birth in Christ so that I could and would believe the gospel.

SO what changed??? What did your NEW LIFE become??

How does one go back to where they already are?

SIMPLE - you're given a chance by the Holy SPirit to become ALIVE in HIM, and you turn it down and walk away. There's no mystery in that.

I did it several times over more than a Decade. Then in '63, I was Beaten, tired, terminally depressed, passivly suicidal, and hopeless, not to speak of being 2000 miles from home. God had "boxed me in"{ pretty thoroughly, and I KNEW tha ONLY under coviction of sin was Repentance, and change possible. SO I surrendered, and called out to Him to SAVE ME - and he did.

And as frosting on the cake, the next morning I woke up and didn't smoke any more after 6 or so years at 3 packs a day, I just no longer smoked - no withdrawal, no craving- nothing. (more to that story).

 

[Arial]

So much for "Belief" (intellectual assent). FAITH is a different breed of cat. it has "SUBSTANCE", and is an "EVIDENCE" of what you don't see.

Faith is belief when we are speaking of saving faith. It believes who Jesus is, what He did, how and why He did it, as given in the Scriptures. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. The substance and the evidence are in our hearts, witnessed by the Holy Spirit.

I do not understand your argument and do not see how it relates in the slightest to what I said. Certainly what I said was not addressed. I might as well have not said it. So what kind of a discussion are you making?

SO what changed??? What did your NEW LIFE become??

I knew every word in the Bible was true and began reading them and still am. Over and over again. The learning never stops. I loved people I had not loved before. My worldview changed completely. All that one way when I went to sleep, its opposite when I awoke in the morning. I was changed not on the outside---that is still ongoing----but inside.

SIMPLE - you're given a chance by the Holy SPirit to become ALIVE in HIM, and you turn it down and walk away. There's no mystery in that.

That flies in the face of Eph 2

1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.b 4Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

That says it is all God's doing from beginning to end. Your repentance was a result of the new birth. There is nothing there or anywhere else in the Scriptures that says the Holy Spirit gives us a chance to come alive in Him. Nothing. Now tell Him thank you and show a bit of gratitude, and stop trying to take credit for any part of your salvation. It is disrespectful to your Creator

 

[Arial]

I'm not a "Systematic" at all.

That one I agree with. I wouldn't brag about it if I were you. It is enough that we can all see it.

But It DOES LET YOU KNOW that you have a Spiritual problem.

So does the Sinai Law. The problem is the natural man cannot understand spiritual things. That is why he is said to be spiritually dead.

Because "Belief" (intellectual assent) doesn't mean SPIT. Salvation is By FAITH which comes from Rom 10:17, has to have the attributes in Heb 11:1 - i.e. "Substance" and EVIDENCE. Intellectual assent has niether. SO "believeing" (intellectual assent) according to normal use, saves NOBODY - FAITH does (Eph 2:8,9).

The Bible is not using belief as INTELLECTUAL ASSENT. Do you think that is what JESUS MEANT? The faith that saves is believing Jesus and the substance of that is briefly: He is Son of God (therefore God) and Son of Man (like us). He was without sin for the purpose of being our substitute on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. He bore our sins on the cross, died, was buried, rose to life on the third day, ascended back to the Father and is there now interceding for us as our High Priest. If one believes this in their heart that is the faith that saves.

 

[Josheb]

He asked a question, I simply answered

Hmmm.... You're not paying attention, are you?

Post 15 quote me and @Arial, not the op, not whoever "he" is. I never asked a question and the question Arial asked was not asked of you or your content. Post 15's, "The apostles administer the kingdom! You cannot enter on your own no diy religion or covenant!" has nothing to do with the op.

A response was posted, but it was not an answer to anything asked.

 

[makesends]

New birth by faith and baptism!

That's not what the OP says.

BTW, the word, "triggers", in the context of the OP, seems to assume that something causes it to begin, like a spark can start a fire, but that the trigger does not actually regenerate. I call 'bogus question'.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

That one I agree with. I wouldn't brag about it if I were you. It is enough that we can all see it.

So does the Sinai Law. The problem is the natural man cannot understand spiritual things. That is why he is said to be spiritually dead.

The Bible is not using belief as INTELLECTUAL ASSENT. Do you think that is what JESUS MEANT? The faith that saves is believing Jesus and the substance of that is briefly: He is Son of God (therefore God) and Son of Man (like us). He was without sin for the purpose of being our substitute on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. H If one believes this in their hearte bore our sins on the cross, died, was buried, rose to life on the third day, ascended back to the Father and is there now interceding for us as our High Priest. that is the faith that saves.

 

[prism]

For me it all took about 30 minutes, and there were tears.

How much does YOUR "Religious sytem" require??

System? What system? God did not systematize my conversion. It was anything but systematic.

 

[prism]

Faith does come by hearing and hearing by the word of God~but faith is not the means of being born again, at least not our faith, but Jesus' faith and obedience~he secured our right to eternal life, not one thing that we did, or could do, that would secured the righteousness required to enter into eternal life.

Correct, but my point was that the word of God was the means of faith, not faith being the means of regeneration.

Matthew 23:23~"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

Faith is by Jesus' own definition, a work of the law. The apostles understood this truth:
Good point, but the meaning here of faith perhaps would be 'faithfulness'?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

System? What system? God did not systematize my conversion. It was anything but systematic.

Probably a lot like mine, then. Calvinists like to "Systematize" things, and examine the "STEPS".

 

[Red Baker]

Probably a lot like mine, then. Calvinists like to "Systematize" things, and examine the "STEPS".

Bob,

Many are very gifted at systemmazing their teachings, I for one I'm not gifted in that area, with no schooling. Yet I find no fault in those righteous men doing so, it does make it much easier to follow and understanding in many cases, some may overdo this a little to impress others, that I will not judge.

As far as examining the steps as you call it, I have made it very clear, that no man knows exactly when he was born again by the SPirit of God, no man, conversion yes, regenerated no~per John 3:

John 3:8~"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

I have no recollection of my first birth, ( and neither do you btw ) no more than I do of my second birth by God's Spirit. We can get close maybe, but impossible to know exactly when it took place. Regeneration and conversion though many make them one and the same, they certainly are not.

 

[Red Baker]

Correct, but my point was that the word of God was the means of faith, not faith being the means of regeneration.

Faith is by Jesus' own definition, a work of the law. The apostles understood this truth:

Then maybe we are not far apart on this teaching.

Good point, but the meaning here of faith perhaps would be 'faithfulness'?

prism~Jesus knows the difference between the two words, I'll stay with faith, for the context would tell me that he meant faith~but, I would not spend time arguing this point for sure. The Lord bless you in your studying of his word.

 

[prism]

Many are very gifted at systemmazing their teachings, I for one I'm not gifted in that area, with no schooling. Yet I find no fault in those righteous men doing so, it does make it much easier to follow and understanding in many cases, some may overdo this a little to impress others, that I will not judge

Agreed, I'm still stymied why it appears that so many Calvinists work as engineers usually at Boeing. lol