What is the supernatural virtue of hope?

[CrowCross]

2 thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

General apostasy

One has to look at the term...Falling away...there are several translations for this word...apostasy, rebellion and some translation such as the Geneva Bible of 1587 use the word "departure".
The greek word is "646. apostasia".
The word was only used twice in scripture. The root word 868. aphistémi may help with the understanding of the word. This word means "leave, depart,". So, the question becomes...depart from what? The faith or earth...or something else?

It's not out of the realm of the word apostasia to mean depart....as likened to getting on a train and departing...or depart refers to the Christian departing at the rapture of the church prior to the man of sin being revealed.

From what I have heard during the Protestant Reformation the Catholic Church translated the word to represent departing from the Catholic belief as the Protestant Reformation took hold as the Catholic Church tried to "demonize" the Protestant Reformation. The modern translation have since then used that translation.

2 Thes 2:1 just prior to 2:3 seems to indicates the subject is about the rapture at the "day of the Lord" and not what you typically call a "general apostasy".

2nd Thes 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him.....This gathering is the rapture or departure mentioned in the verse you presented.

Do you have another verse that supports your claim?

 

[CrowCross]

Immersion, sprinkle, or pour are all valid if applied three times with the words I baptize you in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the Holy Spirit,

Didache teaching of the apostles from 70ad
This is how you should baptize:

Having recited all these things, [the first half of the Teaching, "The Way of Life and the Way of Death"] baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, in running water. If you do not have running water, then baptize in still water. The water should be cold, but if you do not have cold water, then use warm. If you have neither, then just pour water on the head three times in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Both the one who is baptized and the one who baptizes should fast beforehand, along with any others who are able, the one that is baptized being told to fast for a day or two.

This is mans belief and not found in the bible.

The Mormons believe in something similar as can be seen in my post here....and like what you presented can't be found in the bible.

 

[CrowCross]

Invalid

Must have the correct
Intention:
Matter:
Form:


Proper intention: to make a new creation in Christ, to put on Christ, initiation into the new covenant of grace, the act of justification.
Proper Matter: pure water
Proper Form: the words: I baptize you in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the Holy Spirit.

If this is a requirement for salvation....why doesn't the bible have a chapter or two explaining to to be baptized correctly?
Why is John 3:16 not enough for salvation...as well as the other verses that mention salvation (calling on the name of the Lord) without mentioning baptism with water?

 

[donadams]

The falling away must happen before we are gathered at the second coming

Apostasy!

Like the Protestant revolt they will deny Christ, his church, and his revelation

Thanks

 

[donadams]

This is mans belief and not found in the bible.

The Mormons believe in something similar as can be seen in my post here....and like what you presented can't be found in the bible.

Apostolic tradition: literally every word heard by the apostles from the mouth of Christ!

Some of which was written for our instruction by some apostles

 

[donadams]

If this is a requirement for salvation....why doesn't the bible have a chapter or two explaining to to be baptized correctly?
Why is John 3:16 not enough for salvation...as well as the other verses that mention salvation (calling on the name of the Lord) without mentioning baptism with water?

Christ established the church to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation Matt 28:19

 

[CrowCross]

Apostolic tradition: literally every word heard by the apostles from the mouth of Christ!

Some of which was written for our instruction by some apostles

Are you really going to try and defend that position??????

Where does the bible tell us?

 

[CrowCross]

The falling away must happen before we are gathered at the second coming

Apostasy!

Like the Protestant revolt they will deny Christ, his church, and his revelation

Thanks

Are you saying Protestants are not saved? They must be sprinkled 3 times?

 

[CrowCross]

Christ established the church to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation Matt 28:19

18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19Therefore go and make disciplesd of all nations, baptizing them... by sprinkling their head with pure cold water 3 times...in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

I added the red as per your belief....is this how it should have read?

 

[donadams]

Are you really going to try and defend that position??????

Where does the bible tell us?

Where does the Bible say “the Bible is the only authority “?

If it was the only authority it must tell us what is scripture and what is not
And there could be no other authority to interpret scripture!


The church was founded and existed and exercised authority in teaching, governance, and sanctifying souls before the New Testament was written!

The church does not require the scriptures to know the truth!

The church wrote the scripture!

The church was taught by Christ in person for three years!

 

[donadams]

Are you saying Protestants are not saved? They must be sprinkled 3 times?

Objectively yes

They do not have correct faith

immersion is acceptable

 

[donadams]

18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19Therefore go and make disciplesd of all nations, baptizing them... by sprinkling their head with pure cold water 3 times...in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

I added the red as per your belief....is this how it should have read?

Christ taught the apostles in person what to do

 

[CrowCross]

Where does the Bible say “the Bible is the only authority “?

It starts with....2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

Deut 12:32 “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.
Rev 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true.

If it was the only authority it must tell us what is scripture and what is not
And there could be no other authority to interpret scripture!


The church was founded and existed and exercised authority in teaching, governance, and sanctifying souls before the New Testament was written!

How does the church sanctify souls...and where is that authority given?

The church does not require the scriptures to know the truth!

The church wrote the scripture!

The church was taught by Christ in person for three years!

 

[CrowCross]

Objectively yes

They do not have correct faith

immersion is acceptable

Where does the bible say sprinkling with pure cold water is the correct way to baptize and immersion is "acceptable"?

Couldn't I just dump a big gatorade cooler filled with water on your head like they do when a coach wins and call it a day?

 

[CrowCross]

Christ taught the apostles in person what to do

I'm sure Christ taught the apostles a lot....but, if baptism is a requirement...such a major portion of salvation....why didn't it make it into the bible?

 

[donadams]

It starts with....2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

Deut 12:32 “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.
Rev 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true.

How does the church sanctify souls...and where is that authority given?

Scripture yes!
Scripture alone no!

Where does scripture have a list of what is scripture?
Where does scripture have a list of the Ten Commandments even?

By the union with God in Christ by grace!


To be in Christ is to be in the church:
To be in the church by faith and baptismal regeneration is to be in Christ: Christ and His church are united. Acts 9:4 Jn 15:5 eph 5:32

1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church.
Gal 3:27 baptismal regeneration is to put on Christ.

Christ and His church are one inseparable unity! Acts 9:4 Jn 15:5 acts 1:8 eph 5:24 eph 5:32

 

[donadams]

Where does the bible say sprinkling with pure cold water is the correct way to baptize and immersion is "acceptable"?

Couldn't I just dump a big gatorade cooler filled with water on your head like they do when a coach wins and call it a day?

Ex 36:25

 

[donadams]

I'm sure Christ taught the apostles a lot....but, if baptism is a requirement...such a major portion of salvation....why didn't it make it into the bible?

Mk 16:16 he who believes and is baptized shall be saved!

Acts 2:38
Acts 8:36-39
Acts 22:16
Etc.

 

[CrowCross]

Scripture yes!
Scripture alone no!

Where does scripture have a list of what is scripture?
Where does scripture have a list of the Ten Commandments even?

By the union with God in Christ by grace!


To be in Christ is to be in the church:
To be in the church by faith and baptismal regeneration is to be in Christ: Christ and His church are united. Acts 9:4 Jn 15:5 eph 5:32

1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church.

I noticed water isn't mentioned...The one Spirit is. You do understand that baptism has several forms? I presented some of those verses earlier.

Do you honestly think every time baptism is mentioned it refers to water baptism?

Gal 3:27 baptismal regeneration is to put on Christ.

Christ and His church are one inseparable unity! Acts 9:4 Jn 15:5 acts 1:8 eph 5:24 eph 5:32

 

[CrowCross]

Ex 36:25

I'm not following you...is this a typo?