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What is Eternal Subordination of the Son (ESS)?

(pssst.... it's bait)




Just saying

Neither of them appear to be discussing the specified topic of this op (the eternal subordination of the Son). Even non-trins, if they so desired, could discuss the subordinate relationship of the Son to the Father and do so from their non-trin pov. We might even find areas of agreement. So far, the thread has been largely an in-house conversation among Trins clarifying a very small number of points of disagreement and it's turning into an attempt at wholesale repudiation of Christ's divinity instead of a discussion of "ESS."

Shh.... let's throw a grenade into their conversation.
Yeah, okay.
O, look, a grenade. Let's pick that up.

Two pages from now the thread will be all debris far removed from the original specified point of discussion.
Yes, I know. Two Unitarians do that wherever they go no matter the subject. If it is in the Trinity board they feel they have carte blanche to begin discussing (I use that word lightly as there is no discussion, no attempt to support the claim, and one of them has confessed she doesn't even read posts by Trinitarians, just makes remarks.)

So--- radio silence from @Binyawmene, though her presence is often sporadic and she may just be otherwise engaged---a grenade.

It has been said that the subordination of the Son is eternal. I take that to mean that He always was and always will be in eternity past, present, future, subordinate. But also that they are equal. To get around this Biny makes it a relational subordination. Does that change the meaning of subordination to make Him not subordinate according to the definition of subordinate?
 
I must tell you that Jesus says His Father is greater than He.

Do you need the reference?
What is the title of the OP?
 
So you don't even know there is no such thing quoted in the Bible.

Honesty is a must for Jesus' followers.
What is the topic of the OP?
 
Replying to your last comment to me on page 3 and you still didn't address comment #4. The subject will never move forward until you actually address what I said and quit it with your whataboutisms. Acts 4:24,27 that proves Jesus isn't God isn't going away any time soon.
What is the title of this thread?
 
Keep going...

Acts 3:14
But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you.


"The Righteous One" (in reference to Jesus) is also used in Acts 7.

Acts 7:52
Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? And they have slain those who previously announced the coming of the Righteous One; whose betrayers and murderers you have now become.

The Righteous One, being the Lord, links with the fact that the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer (which proves He is God).
Acts 7:59-60
(59) And they stoned Stephen as he called out saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
(60) And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not hold this sin against them!
OP title?
 
Indeed. Here's some commentary I recently wrote on this:

According to scripture, Jesus is not the I AM because he isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jesus is God's servant, not God.

Only the I AM is remembered as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jesus is remembered as His servant. Jesus is not the I AM, not God, not YHWH, etc.

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.

Exodus 3
14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.
Stick to the topic of the OP.
 
The topic of the OP opens a discussion as to the subordination of Christ, following a specific train of thought. Any further posts addressing the deity of Jesus will be deleted as not germane to the OP. They derail and disrupt the thread.
 
I was following what the discussion is going.
It is still off topic and it must stop now or the OP will be completely lost. Let's bring it back on track. Thank you.
 
I was only pointing out your errors.
Well, stop it. End of discussion. This is also off topic and it is not a negotiation. A rule is being violated.
 
I most certainly do. You were the one misrepresenting scripture and now you're on record not following your ow standards when it would have been much easier, much more efficient and much more Godly to immediately and directly answer the questions asked because nowhere does Acts 4:24-27 explicitly state, "Jesus is not God."

How does Acts 4:24-27 prove Jesus is not God?
.

Correct. So honestly answer the question asked. Thrice asked, thrice unanswered?


How does Acts 4:24-27 prove Jesus is not God?

And what does that have to do with the specific subject being discussed in this thread, the eternal subordination of the Son?




If there is no answer to these questions in the next post, I will not bother with you again (Tit. 3:9-11).
I have asked her(and everyone) to stay on topic and she would never have answered your question anyway. This I know from past experience.
 
That is 100%, absolutely, wholly, undeniably and irrefutably correct.

Absolutely. That's why you should reread post 57.

BTW. I'm just now getting to your post. Don't expect me to be online all the time. I work 12 hours. But when I have free time, I can give you a response to your post. And for Arial, I'm a HE not she.

And that would mean your use of Psalm 90:4 is an abuse of scripture and a false equivalence fallacy.

The author of Psalms 90:4 is using temporal conditions to describe the eternal God. It's comparing our timeframe of "thousand years" to the Eternal God outside of time "like a watch in the night." The word "eternal now" is not found in Scriptures, but we see the Biblical descriptions for the concept. That's why it's like a day, yesterday, or today, a hour ago or the eternal now. So, we label that concept as an eternal now. That's how we 'drawn out' a meaning from the whole of Scriptures exegetically. Even omnipresence isn't found in Scriptures, but we see the Biblical descriptions for it. The term is exegetically drawn out from the whole of Scriptures. We simply use a term to label the Biblical concept as omnipresence.
God does not exist "inside of time."

God exist everywhere. He exists inside of time and outside of time simultaneously. He is both transcendence and immanence, like omnipresence for example.

It is ascribed to God relative to the temporal conditions of creation.

The word "everlasting" can be applied to both God and to a mountain or hill in the Bible. When it's applied to God like Psalms 90:2 does, then it's not referring to temporal conditions. And, besides, there is nothing wrong with using temporal conditions to explain eternal conditions. Again, the phrase "everlasting to everlasting" means eternal because it's ascribed to God and not some mountain or hill that still exist through the ages. It will eventually parish, but God won't and will remain the same since he is eternal. The Biblical authors uses temporal conditions to explain eternal conditions. Take for instant Hebrews 1:10-12 for example.

The Person of the Son is being compared to a garment. The garment will change, rot, an fade away, but the Person of the Son remains the same because he is immutable. This Scripture also expresses the idea of eternalness. It takes time for the garment to change or creation itself to perish, but through the whole process we have the Eternal Person of the Son remaining the same without change. It also uses a literacy device "and your years will never end," its not saying that God increase in age (one through countless years), since "years" imply change and beginning in our temporal understanding. But its understood in the sense that the Person of the Son is eternalness through immutability.

I asked you when God's throne first existed and that question has not been answered.

The Bible doesn't give an explicit time, year, and date. But the Bible does say,

Psalm 93:2 Your throne was established long ago; you are from all eternity.

Here it is again, the author of Psalms is comparing the atemporal throne to God's eternalness. It's the reflection of the Eternal God that counts. The Biblical authors compare temporal to reflect on eternalness or atemporal to reflect on eternalness. If the Biblical authors didn't do comparisons, then we wouldn't have the concept of an eternal now.

Also, the titles Father and Son and their relationship is eternal now (Hebrews 1:5, Romans 8:3, Galatians 4:4, 1 John 3:8, John 11:27, and 1 John 5:20). The title Son is mentioned in his preexistence.
 
Absolutely. That's why you should reread post 57.

BTW. I'm just now getting to your post. Don't expect me to be online all the time. I work 12 hours. But when I have free time, I can give you a response to your post. And for Arial, I'm a HE not she.
I have read it. I have re-read it more than once AND critiqued it as objectively as I can, done a forensic analysis AND you should never assume otherwise of anyone.

Post 57 is deeply flawed and I have explained to you several times in several different ways how and why it is flawed. You've mishandled scripture, failed to grasp the very real differences between everlasting and eternity, appealed to extra-biblical sources over scripture itself, repeatedly taken post-sin conditions and applied them to sinless eternity (repeatedly abusing scripture), and refused to listen to EVERYONE else - even those who share the Trinitarian point of view. any people with various points of view have all agreed: there are problems with this op. Multiple problems, not just one. There are problems with its methodology, and, as a consequence of the bad methodology, the op is flawed in its conclusions. The op is NOT entirely correct, but neither is it wholly correct.

The Son is subordinate to the Father.

One that one point everyone agrees. Give yourself a pat on the back and receive my affirmation to that effect. Neither I, nor anyone here (with the possible except of one unnamed poster), are your enemy. Just as you receive my affirmation, try receiving the correction EVERYONE has indicated needs to be received. The Son is subordinate to the Father BUT Jesus is much more than the Son to the Father The language of Father and Son is largely New Testament language that overwhelmingly pertains to salvation and end times, but soteriology and eschatology are subsets of the much, much, much larger categories of Christology and Theology. Those subsets are temporal. God/Jesus is eternal, not just everlasting.

The subordinate relationship is not eternal.

Outside of Jesus' role as the Son in salvation and eschatological Judge, he and God are One.

Please do not ask me to re-read Post 57 again. The request is lame.
 
@Binyawmene,

Let's review the thread one single step at a time. Here's just one single question that can be answered with one word.

Is the language of Father/Son largely a New Testament condition or not?
 
@Binyawmene,

Is the role of Son largely soteriological and eschatological?
 
@Binyawmene,

Even when the language of "Son" (or Father) is used in the Old Testament, is it ever not soteriological or eschatological?
 
@Binyawmene,

Are soteriology and eschatology temporal or eternal conditions?
 
@Binyawmene,

Is Christology a larger, more encompassing doctrine than soteriology?
 
@Binyawmene,

Is Christology a larger, more encompassing doctrine than eschatology?
 
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