What if God, willing to. . . .

[JIM]

Go back to the beginning and read again. Anyone who does not close their eyes to the scripture teaching can plainly see individuals.

Rom 9:1 I am speaking the truth in Christ--I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit--
Rom 9:2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh.
Rom 9:4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.
Rom 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

Clearly, Paul is speaking of the nation Israel here in his lament.

 

[Carbon]

Rom 9:1 I am speaking the truth in Christ--I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit--
Rom 9:2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh.
Rom 9:4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.
Rom 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

Oh, context stops there?
But you still don’t see it?

 

[JIM]

Oh, context stops there?
But you still don’t see it?

What I see is your misunderstanding of what Paul is saying.

 

[Carbon]

What I see is your misunderstanding of what Paul is saying.

Maybe you should start with reading the whole chapter. Perhaps then you won’t see only what you want to see, (my misunderstanding) but what Paul is actually teaching.

 

[Carbon]

What I see is your misunderstanding of what Paul is saying.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

 

[Carbon]

What I see is your misunderstanding of what Paul is saying.

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

 

[Carbon]

What I see is your misunderstanding of what Paul is saying.

even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea,

 

[Carbon]

@JIM
Maybe I should stop and let these things settle in. Lord willing

 

[JIM]

Maybe you should start with reading the whole chapter. Perhaps then you won’t see only what you want to see, (my misunderstanding) but what Paul is actually teaching.

That is the perfect example of the Pot calling the Kettle black.

As I said earlier, there is not a single verse in all of Chapter 9 that says that God actually wants some to be eternally condemned.

 

[Carbon]

That is the perfect example of the Pot calling the Kettle black.

That’s the perfect example of denial.

As I said earlier, there is not a single verse in all of Chapter 9 that says that God actually wants some to be eternally condemned.

 

[atpollard]

Would God not PERMIT things that are not His explicit DESIRE because the END accomplishes His plan?

I think of the life of Joseph. Did God DESIRE (active support and encourage) Joseph's brother's to hate him enough to want to see Joseph dead? Can we say [to paraphrase 2 Peter 3:9] "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise to Abraham, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to the house of Israel-ward, not willing that Joseph should perish, but that all the house of Israel should come to repentance."

Clearly, God allowed many BAD things to happen to Joseph and God allowed his brothers to do many bad things.
At the other "bookend", we have the clear statement from Joseph recorded in Scripture: Genesis 50:20 [NKJV] "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive."

However, the fact that God allowed EVIL to bring about His plan (Good) does not equate to God desiring evil actions. It is unreasonable to think that God could not have accomplished the same ends without compelling men to to do evil. As Job and Romans 1 describe, God is a restraining force against evil who permits only that EVIL which served His purposes. Allowing "vessels of destruction" to store up wrath for the day of wrath, or "God meant it for good in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive."

 

[Carbon]

That is the perfect example of the Pot calling the Kettle black.

As I said earlier, there is not a single verse in all of Chapter 9 that says that God actually wants some to be eternally condemned.

Yea, let’s just ignore what scripture says.

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
but that’s really not good enough for you, is it.

But why are some prepared for wrath?

in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

I know, I know, what gives God the right to do as He pleases, right?

 

[JIM]

Your sadness should be your inability to read and understand God's teaching on soteriology.

 

[Carbon]

Your sadness should be your inability to read and understand God's teaching on soteriology.

Denial. Your pretty transparent

 

[JIM]

I know, I know, what gives God the right to do as He pleases, right?

As I stated earlier, the entire chapter concerns God's right to use individuals and nations in any way He chooses without being obligated to save them.

 

[Alive]

That is the perfect example of the Pot calling the Kettle black.

As I said earlier, there is not a single verse in all of Chapter 9 that says that God actually wants some to be eternally condemned.

May I suggest that this is looking at this backwards. All of Adam’s race already stands condemned. God chooses some for Grace in order to fulfill His eternal purpose as mentioned by Paul in Ephesians. That Purpose halted in Eden and restored through Christ bringing many sons to Glory.
God desired a Family after ‘Kind’. His Eternal Purpose and Desire was thus not thwarted.

Don’t forget either that all the rest have known his unfathomable Grace in that they have been allowed to live on this earth and enjoy it and family, friends and a beautiful blue above and green below.

 

[Carbon]

As I stated earlier, the entire chapter concerns God's right to use individuals and nations in any way He chooses without being obligated to save them.

It’s comforting knowing you allow Him that much.

 

[JIM]

May I suggest that this is looking at this backwards. All of Adam’s race already stands condemned.

That thinking is the disaster that comes from the false doctrine of Original Sin. The only reason anyone stands condemned is because he, not Adam, has sinned. And the disaster of the heretical doctrine of Total Depravity is even worse.

 

[Alive]

“The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have committed detestable acts; There is no one who does good.

The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of mankind To see if there are any who understand, Who seek God.

They have all turned aside, together they are corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Do all the workers of injustice not know, Who devour my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon the LORD?

There they are in great dread, For God is with a righteous generation.

You would put to shame the plan of the poor, But the LORD is his refuge.

Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD restores the fortunes of His people, Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.”

(Psalm 14:1-7 NAS20)

 

[JIM]

It’s comforting knowing you allow Him that much.

It has nothing to do with me "allowing" anything. It is has only to do what He says.