What Happened In Acts?

[Dave]

I don't see where anything you said there teaches/implies time passage between death and resurrection.

Sorry for being so brief in my last post. I was on my way out the door.

By resurrection, you claim that you don't mean being born again, meaning raised up with Him spiritually. OK, then what do you mean?

By resurrection, do you mean ascension? If so, the passage in John answers your question and shows time passage between death and resurrection. There's a lot of scripture that I posted along with that.

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

13 No one has ascended to heaven (OT saints) but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. (Hebrews 11:39 above)

Why did no one ascend? Because they were not born again, nor could they be.

Dave

 

[makesends]

Sorry for being so brief in my last post. I was on my way out the door.

By resurrection, you claim that you don't mean being born again, meaning raised up with Him spiritually. OK, then what do you mean?

I'm talking about the resurrection of our bodies. Between the death of our bodies and the resurrection of our bodies, and time passage experienced by the 'person', whatever the person is without the body, is not warranted, from what I understand. It is at least irrelevant, might be a more suitable way to put it for most people's sake.

By resurrection, do you mean ascension? If so, the passage in John answers your question and shows time passage between death and resurrection. There's a lot of scripture that I posted along with that.

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

13 No one has ascended to heaven (OT saints) but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. (Hebrews 11:39 above)

Why did no one ascend? Because they were not born again, nor could they be.

Dave

I'm not talking about being born again. The passage in John does not show time passage between physical death and physical resurrection, from the point of view of those who have died. (Unless, that is, you can explain why Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise").

You're mixing two subjects together. Stick to the matter of the question of time between physical death and physical resurrection. Or return to the subject of the OP.

 

[EarlyActs]

OT SAINTS SAVED BY FAITH

First, to grasp what was happening in Acts, you must understand that the OT saints were also saved by faith. They put their faith in God that He would provide a Savior. God had passed over their sins until Christ died on the cross.

Hebrews 10:1-4 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

No ceremonial things ever saved anybody. This includes animal sacrifices, which pointed towards Christs death on the cross and was a reminder of sin, and also includes water baptism, which is an outward expression of an inward truth. No "types" can save. (read Hebrews 9)

Romans 3:21-26 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, Whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, To demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

God had passed over the sins committed by OT saints until Christ's substitutionary death on the cross. The OT saints still living after Jesus' death on the cross needed to be born again. The OT saints who were already physically dead, by their faith, were saved. They had to wait and were kept in the paradise side of hades until their sins were atoned for on the cross.

See the link for a greater explanation.

HE LED THE CAPTIVES FREE AND GAVE GIFTS TO MEN
BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: EPHESIANS 4:7-9 HE LED THE CAPTIVES FREE

WHAT HAPPENED IN ACTS?

A person cannot be born again without being baptized into Jesus' death and raised up with Him, this is what it means to be born again. This spiritual baptism is done by Jesus with the Holy Spirit, hence the term 'baptism with the Holy Spirit.' Nobody in the OT could be born again because there was no death or resurrection to be baptized into. They were kept in the paradise side of Hades until then. These OT saints needed to wait for Jesus to die on the cross to pay for there sins (Romans 3:25-26) before they could go to heaven (John 3:13, Ephesians 4:7-9). The OT saints still living needed to be upgraded (Born again), It was due to them (promise of the Father) because they had faith in Jesus, but to be baptized into the Body of Christ by Jesus with the Holy Spirit, they first needed for Jesus to die on the cross to atone for their sins, to be resurrected, and to ascend and be glorified, sitting at the right hand of the Father. Then, and only then could He send the promise of the Father, 'the' Helper, 'the' Holy Spirit, who is the Agent of this spiritual baptism, so they could be baptized into His death and resurrection, i.e. born again, made one with Him, baptized into the Church-His Spiritual Body-"in Christ". After the transition of bringing OT saints (still living) to NT standards, the norm is "we are all baptized with one Spirit into one Body" (1 Corinthians 12:13). This happens for us now the first moment we believe in faith.


The difference between the nature of the relationship between the Holy Spirit and saints from the OT to the NT can be seen in John 14:16-18.

The Church is the Body of Christ. Ephesians 1:23, Colossians 1:24

Christ is the Head of the Church. Ephesians 1:22, Ephesians 5:23

The birth of the Church. Acts 2 (birth = the first born again, the first baptized into the Body)

This is still a future event in Acts 1:5, Jesus ascended in Acts 1:9, Holy Spirit given Acts 2:33.

To be baptized with the Holy Spirit by Jesus is how we are born again. Romans 6:3-6, Colossians 2:9-12.

Jesus is the prophesied baptizer. Matthew 3:10-12, John 1:33-34, Acts 1:5

The Holy Spirit is the agent of baptism. 1 Corinthians 12:13

You cannot be born again unless you are baptized into the Body of Christ. Romans 6:3-6, Colossians 2:9-12.

His baptism with the Holy Spirit is that which saves (not water baptism). 1 Peter 3:21, Titus 3:5


Conditions that needed to be met. Nobody could be born again until.........

----A) Jesus died and was resurrected to atone for our sins.

----B) We were given the promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit who is the agent of baptism, who will be the seal of our inheritance.


After Jesus' death and resurrection, 'the' Holy Spirit--'the' Promise of the Father--'the' agent of baptism, could then only be given after these happened first as prophesied.

...........1) Christ must go away, depart, physically seen no more. John 16:7, John 16:10.

...........2) He must be glorified. John 7:39.

...........3) To "send" the Holy Spirit (John 14:26, John 15:26, Acts 1:4-5) He must first go away.

...........4) He must go to the Father. John 16:7-10.


At Pentecost the conditions were met. (Acts 2:33)

1) They were not seeing Him (physically ascended)

2) He was glorified (exalted)

3) He could then "send" the Holy Spirit.

4) He was with the Father, at his right hand.

This is part of the transition from the OT to the NT. After those who were alive, in faith, both before and after Christ's death, resurrection and ascension, received the promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit as the Agent of their baptism by Jesus into union with Him, being born again, the transition was over.


For us now...

We are all baptized into one Body. (Spiritual baptism, not water) 1 Corinthians 12:13 (norm for today)

There is one Body, one baptism. (Spiritual baptism, not water) Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Corinthians 12:12-13

When you are baptized (Spiritual baptism, not water) into Christ and Born again, you are complete in Him. Colossians 2:9-12, 2 Peter 1:3-4

There is no need of a second blessing. John 3:34

Even during this transitional period, the saved by faith (old covenant) Old Testament saints needed to be upgraded to the New Testament baptism (born again, baptized into the body of Christ, the Church.) Acts 19:1-7.

This Gift from Acts 11:15 (the Holy Spirits permanent indwelling, sealed until the day of redemption) was the same Gift given to the Apostles at the beginning, i.e. The birth of the Church, which is Now for all nations and people. Acts 2:38, Acts 2:39. (also notice it is speaking of "the" Holy Spirit as the Gift.

Christ was the first in preeminence. Colossians 1:18

John 7:39, John 14:16-17, John 14:26, John 15:16, John 16:7, John 16:10 were all fulfilled at Pentecost Acts 2:33, and not John 20:21-22.

Continued...

Sounds like you are trying to answer every question about everything. It would be best if you confined to one.

If you are talking about the entirety of Acts your OP question is far too large.

 

[Dave]

I'm talking about the resurrection of our bodies. Between the death of our bodies and the resurrection of our bodies, and time passage experienced by the 'person', whatever the person is without the body, is not warranted, from what I understand. It is at least irrelevant, might be a more suitable way to put it for most people's sake.

I'm not talking about being born again. The passage in John does not show time passage between physical death and physical resurrection, from the point of view of those who have died. (Unless, that is, you can explain why Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise").

You're mixing two subjects together. Stick to the matter of the question of time between physical death and physical resurrection. Or return to the subject of the OP.

Hey make

Yes, we're talking about two different things here.

As Macarthur said, "The physical part of salvation (a physical wholeness) is something we look forward to, not something we possess today." That's why we still die. And as Hank Hanegraaff said of the physical resurrection, "Scripture teaches that believers are not resurrected until the second coming of Christ.... If believers received their resurrected bodies at the moment of death, they obviously could not receive them at Christ’s Second Coming." So, no Christian, physically dead or not, has been physically resurrected yet. Not until the second coming.

When do we receive our resurrected bodies? - Christian Research Institute

www.equip.org

The spiritual resurrection is very relevant. That's what the whole discussion is about. I guess that there are two ways we could look at this spiritual resurrection, even though I never thought of using the term resurrection with the latter one, technically, it could also apply.

The first one is being born again, as Romans 6 tells us, among other places, that as a result of that spirit baptism (immersion, placing into) with the Holy Spirit, by Jesus, we spiritually die and are raised up with Him, born again. That's the spiritual resurrection we call being born again.

I suppose the other, the latter one of the two, is when that born again spirit ascends to be with the Father in heaven. That's what I believed you were talking about, but I wasn't sure. For clarity, we should call that ascension, not resurrection. When did OT saints spiritually ascend to be with the father? They can't until they are born again. That's why I posted that passage in John 3. They couldn't be born again without the agent of that baptism that spiritually unites them with Jesus, the Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit, who was given on Pentecost after Jesus ascended.

This being "in Christ" is what gives us all the things that we receive from Jesus as a result of that union with Him. But, those things had to actually first happen before we could receive them as a result of that union with Jesus. The actual atonement for sin, and the establishment of the righteousness of God that is imputed to us. The death and resurrection by which we are ourselves are born again. And the the agent of that baptism that unites us with Jesus, the Holy Spirit. Everything that is the result of being "in Christ", which is the result of the baptism with the Holy Spirit, was not available until Pentecost. Abd the baptism itself was not available until Pentecost.

Jesus told the thief on the cross "Today you will be with Me in Paradise" because that's where they went. I would refer you back to post #3. Paradise was taken with Jesus to the third heaven when He ascended. That's when He took the OT saints to be with the father. The legality of God's justice was satisfied.

Dave

 

[makesends]

Hey make

Yes, we're talking about two different things here.

As Macarthur said, "The physical part of salvation (a physical wholeness) is something we look forward to, not something we possess today." That's why we still die. And as Hank Hanegraaff said of the physical resurrection, "Scripture teaches that believers are not resurrected until the second coming of Christ.... If believers received their resurrected bodies at the moment of death, they obviously could not receive them at Christ’s Second Coming." So, no Christian, physically dead or not, has been physically resurrected yet. Not until the second coming.

Not that I claim any authority above Hanegraaff, but he is speaking in terms of our current point of view. From this view, into which we are bound, yes, he is correct. But I don't think God's point of view works that way. I think, for example, that God already HAS what he spoke into existence—that body of believers, to include those of the Body of Christ that are not even born yet.

When do we receive our resurrected bodies? - Christian Research Institute

www.equip.org

The spiritual resurrection is very relevant. That's what the whole discussion is about. I guess that there are two ways we could look at this spiritual resurrection, even though I never thought of using the term resurrection with the latter one, technically, it could also apply.

The first one is being born again, as Romans 6 tells us, among other places, that as a result of that spirit baptism (immersion, placing into) with the Holy Spirit, by Jesus, we spiritually die and are raised up with Him, born again. That's the spiritual resurrection we call being born again.

I suppose the other, the latter one of the two, is when that born again spirit ascends to be with the Father in heaven. That's what I believed you were talking about, but I wasn't sure. For clarity, we should call that ascension, not resurrection. When did OT saints spiritually ascend to be with the father? They can't until they are born again. That's why I posted that passage in John 3. They couldn't be born again without the agent of that baptism that spiritually unites them with Jesus, the Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit, who was given on Pentecost after Jesus ascended.

This being "in Christ" is what gives us all the things that we receive from Jesus as a result of that union with Him. But, those things had to actually first happen before we could receive them as a result of that union with Jesus. The actual atonement for sin, and the establishment of the righteousness of God that is imputed to us. The death and resurrection by which we are ourselves are born again. And the the agent of that baptism that unites us with Jesus, the Holy Spirit. Everything that is the result of being "in Christ", which is the result of the baptism with the Holy Spirit, was not available until Pentecost. Abd the baptism itself was not available until Pentecost.

Jesus told the thief on the cross "Today you will be with Me in Paradise" because that's where they went. I would refer you back to post #3. Paradise was taken with Jesus to the third heaven when He ascended. That's when He took the OT saints to be with the father. The legality of God's justice was satisfied.

Dave

Seems rather speculatively arranged to me, but, ok.

 

[Dave]

Sounds like you are trying to answer every question about everything. It would be best if you confined to one.

If you are talking about the entirety of Acts your OP question is far too large.

lol

I actually agree, but I have yet to find a way to condense it without leaving too much out. My hope is that the idea clicks in ones head and as a result, they begin to see it in scripture themselves. Start with the spiritual mechanics of being born again, and work out from there. For me it started with the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Dave

 

[EarlyActs]

lol

I actually agree, but I have yet to find a way to condense it without leaving too much out. My hope is that the idea clicks in ones head and as a result, they begin to see it in scripture themselves. Start with the spiritual mechanics of being born again, and work out from there. For me it started with the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Dave

Change the title, the OP.

For one thing, does anything in Acts say that this is always the way all people will believe or experience a surge?

Not that I know of. This is why Protestant interpretation says the letters are to be taken over the narratives for our knowledge and practices.

 

[Dave]

Hi @EarlyActs

Surge is a strange way to put it. But Acts is the surge. There is quite a bit of scripture in the OT that points to those promises given at Pentecost. It's the birth of the Church. The transition from the old covenant to the new covenant. This took some time because, some of the OT saints who were still living had never heard the Gospel yet (Acts 19:2-7), even after the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus, their understanding in faith ended with the OT. There was no Paradise in Hades/Sheol for them to go to when they die. These OT believers needed to hear the Gospel and believe to be born again. I believe that at least one of the places that Jesus said that He would not lose any that the Father gave Him applies specifically to these OT saints. Both the ones that were in Hades/Sheol/Paradise, and the ones still living. The OT belief wasn't enough anymore now that the New Testament, or New Covenant was revealed and began. There was no more holding cell, if you will, as Paradise was taken to the third heaven already by Jesus when He ascended. Paul understood their predicament immediately when they answered his questions in that passage. In fact, the answer to the question, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" is very telling, It's suggesting that the indwelling was an indication of a NT belief, and not the OT. Thanks for that. I never noticed that before.

I appreciate the suggestion. I'm always looking for a way to condense, but in this case, I'll leave it as is and let people take it in doses if they like. The death resurrection and ascension are central to scripture. The OT points forward to it and Jesus. The NT points back to the same. Acts recorded the transition from one to the other and all the Promises that were made all through out the OT pointed towards that day at Pentecost.

Dave