What does "Deity of Christ" mean?

[Fred]

Our brother in the Lord Jesus born of dying flesh and blood is signified as sinful. Dying flesh signified as sinful was needed to put way sin in the flesh.

A vision or theophany would not accomplish the purpose of the Father. Literal dying flesh was needed to demonstrate the work of the Father pouring out His Spirt life in jeopardy of his own Spirit on the dying flesh. The one time promised demonstration.

Romans 8:3 For what the law (death) could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The above is a total dodge that Jesus is worshiped in equality with the Father in Revelation 5:13.

 

[Runningman]

I love what John 14:14 teaches in that Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer.

Those who deny this precious truth are very confused.

Here's a question for you. Why would someone pray to Jesus if they can do greater works than him? Can you do greater works than God? If Jesus is God, he says you can be GREATER than God. Gee, that almost sounds like blasphemy. Your problem goes away when you finally understand that Jesus is not God. He is not prayed to ever, one time, in the Bible. Notice how the word pray is never even used in communicating with him.

John 14
12Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I am doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If you ask Me for anything in My name, I will do it.

 

[Runningman]

The above is a total dodge that Jesus is worshiped in equality with the Father in Revelation 5:13.

Jesus is never worshipped as God one time in the Bible.

 

[Fred]

Here's a question for you.

Nope, not until...

You first have to supply your list (see post 98 and 100).

 

[Fred]

Jesus is never worshipped as God one time in the Bible.

While you totally dodged Revelation 5:13!

 

[Runningman]

Nope, not until...

You first have to supply your list (see post 98 and 100).

Be a man and answer the question.

 

[Runningman]

While you totally dodged Revelation 5:13!

Jesus isn't worshipped as God one time in the Bible.

 

[Fred]

Be a man and answer the question.

Say that to yourself and stop hiding from your infamous list.

 

[Runningman]

Say that to yourself and stop hiding from your infamous list.

This thread was good until you starting being lazy with all of your replies. Anyway, I got my touchdown on the first page so that's all I really care about. Just need to make sure the OP of this thread doesn't drag anyone else down.

 

[Fred]

This thread was good until

I asked for evidence that backs up what you are asserting.

Those who embrace a false jesus hate when that happens.

The List!

 

[Runningman]

I asked

You aren't in control of what I talk about. I will control what is being talked about here.

Here's a question for you. Why would someone pray to Jesus if they can do greater works than him? Can you do greater works than God? If Jesus is God, he says you can be GREATER than God. Gee, that almost sounds like blasphemy. Your problem goes away when you finally understand that Jesus is not God. He is not prayed to ever, one time, in the Bible. Notice how the word pray is never even used in communicating with him.

John 14
12Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I am doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If you ask Me for anything in My name, I will do it.

 

[Fred]

I got my touchdown on the first page

The so-called evidence you supplied was so terrible that it compares to you scoring a touchdown for the opposing team!

 

[Fred]

You aren't in control of what I talk about.

Likewise.

The List!

 

[Runningman]

Likewise.

The List!

That's not how this works. You don't just bark, "the list!" and everyone comes to your beck and call to give you what you want while you ignore every question and refute brought forward to you. This thread is dead. Next.

 

[Fred]

That's not how this works.

Says you!

I asked for the list (post 100) before you asked your ridiculous questions (post 122).

This thread is dead.

Your false jesus is dead.

 

[Runningman]

Says you!

I asked for the list (post 100) before you asked your ridiculous questions (post 122).

I don't respect you or like you, but that doesn't mean I will speak to you in a manner that isn't civil. However, I will not dignify your every whim. If you want answers then do your homework.

Your false jesus is dead.

Given that Jesus isn't God and that has been exhaustively proven, then you have an idol:

Revelation 21
8But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.”

 

[Binyawmene]

Jesus and other Christians can have the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) without themselves being God, i.e., godly.

This shows your lack of understanding the Bible and the Hypostatic Union. Christians don't have the Divine Nature in the same sense that Jesus Christ ontologically is according to the Divine Nature. What the verse is talking about is the sanctifying and empowering work of God who is indwelling us. The context demonstrates that point.

vs 3. His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.​

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vs. 4. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.​

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vs. 5-9 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.​

Colossians 1:15 says Jesus is in the image of God because an image isn't the original therefore Jesus isn't God. A human isn't God regardless of the commonalities they share with God because a human being as God is rank idolatry, it's sin. Why explicit declarations about Jesus allegedly being God aren't in the Bible is because it isn't a Biblical doctrine.

This shows your lack of understanding of both the Trinity and Hypostatic Union. The invisible image is not a copy. God has only one invisible image and all three persons is and of that image. "The Son is the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15), which means he is God. And the context is in reference to the preexisting Son-person (vs. 15-17). He is Creator "all things were created," is Eternal "before all things," and is Sustainer "all things hold together." The Son being the Creator is a clear expression of his DEITY, and the context continues to talk about his preeminence (vs. 18).

God isn't a human, i,.e., Jesus is not God.​

Denials is not your best option. What you are doing is proof-texting: (Numbers 23: 19, 1 Samuel 15:29, Hosea 11:9). So naturally I disagree with your interpretation of those verses. This also shows your lack of understanding of the Hypostatic Union. I agree that "God is not man," which is a category mistake and a ontological error. We say, "Jesus Christ is both God and man" (a union) and we don't claim "God is a man." For example, Jesus Christ being Fully Human is derived from the human nature being composed of the whole body and soul/spirit, with all of the human attributes and properties. That is what qualify him as human. And "God" and "Man" are not properties and attributes of the Natures or of the Person. Rather it's what the natures have constituted what the Son-person to be, like: the Divine Nature constitutes the Son-person to be God and the Human Nature constitutes the selfsame Son-person to be Man.

Jesus is created, God isn't, i.e., worshipping Jesus as God is a sin.​

Again, this shows your lack of understanding of both the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union. The Son-person isn't created, but always been God eternally. The human nature, on the other hand, was created. But we don't worship the Son-person as man, but him as God. Also, to worship any of the persons individually in the Trinity is giving glory to all three persons. The Father and the Son shares glory (John 11:4, 17:10). The Holy Spirit glorifies the Son (John 16:14), the Son glorifies the Father (John 5:41, 7:18, 8:50), and the Father glorifies the Son (John 8:54, 12:28, 13:32, 17:1, 5).

John 3:16 says God saves the world through Jesus. God saves, but Jesus is instrumental. They can both work together without them both being God.​

I understand what you are suggesting but having the Son on that particular level. The object of your faith and the one who receives your prayers is only a human being? That's flat-out idolatry. And Unitarians turn Jesus Christ into some kind of demi-god upon his exaltation. That is tritheism and polytheism at best.

That's two different persons. If you will read 2 Peter 1:2 you will see the distinction more clearly.

We already had that discussion. Granville Sharp’s rule refutes Two Person view in 2 Peter 1:1 "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" and Titus 2:13 "our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ."

Nope. Jesus said the Father is greater than himself therefore they are not equals.

This shows your lack of knowledge in both the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union. Subordination is part of the framework. We call it "Relational/Economical Trinity" and the "Two Wills of Christ." Because the Son is equal to the Father according to the Divine Nature and subordinate to the Father according to the human nature.

They do not share all of the same names/titles. For example, Jesus is not God, the I AM, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, nor YHWH just to name a few.

Not according to John 8:58, Exodus 3:14.

Jesus is not omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent. Jesus has the same nature as his God and Father, but he isn't God.

Denial is your worst enemy.

Jesus Christ is Omniscient

Jesus Christ knows all things (1 John 3:20 i.e. John 16:30, John 21:17).​

Jesus Christ knows the Father (Matthew 11:27, John 7:29, 8:55, 10:15, 17:25).​

Jesus Christ knows all people (Psalm 139:1-4 i.e. John 2:24-25, Matthew 9:4, Mark 2:8, Luke 5:22, John 6:64).​

Jesus Christ knows where to catch fish, even a coin (Luke 5:4-6, Matthew 17:27).​

Jesus Christ is Omnipotent

Jesus Christ created all things (Jeremiah 32:17, Psalms 102:25 i.e. Hebrews 1:2-3, 10, 2:10, Colossians 1:16-17, John 1:1-3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Romans 11:36, 1:20).​

Jesus Christ declares all things are possible and able (Job 42:1-2, Jeremiah 32:27 i.e. Luke 18:26-27, Matthew 9:28, Philippians 3:20–21).​

Jesus Christ performs miracles (John 2:11, Matthew 9:28, Luke 6:19, 8:46) and Divine titles (1 Corinthians 1:24, 2 Corinthians 12:9).​

Jesus Christ is Omnipresent

Jesus Christ fills the whole universe (Jeremiah 23:23-24, Psalms 139:7-10 i.e. Ephesians 4:10, 1:22-23, Colossians 3:11, Acts 17:27).​

Jesus Christ is with and in all the regenerated (John 14:23 i.e. Matthew 18:20, 28:20, 2 Corinthians 13:5, Colossians 1:27, 1 John 3:24).​

Jesus has the same nature as his God and Father, but he isn't God.

Sounds like you believe in a demi-god. In Trinitarianism, we teach the Greek word homoousio, which simply means "same essence." Whatever the Father is, the Son is. The Son has the exact same essence with the Father. And that naturally followed that the Son is co-equal and co-eternal. You really should learn what both the Trinity and Hypostatic Union teaches before you have discussions.

Jesus is never worshipped in all of scripture as God. When Jesus was bowed to, whether in heaven or earth, it was in regard to his status as Son of God, but only the Father gets the glory.

Really? (Matthew 14:33, Luke 24:52). Again, you really don't understand the Trinity. The Father receiving glory is part of the framework. To worship any of the persons individually in the Trinity, then all the persons is worshipped and glorified.

No need to address the rest of your post. Just pointless asserted claims.

 

[Runningman]

"The Son is the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15), which means he is God.

That means he is not God. God is invisible, and the Son isn't. The invisible God is the Father who is Spirit.

God is Spirit:

John 4​

24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”​

Jesus is not a Spirit:

Luke 24​

39Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see—for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”​

He is Creator "all things were created," is Eternal "before all things," and is Sustainer "all things hold together."

Paul was speaking to a specific context, but exaggerating. To demonstrate this, later in the chapter he did it again with something that is demonstrably false if literal.

The gospel absolutely had not been preached to every living creature under heaven. Paul is exaggerating, but speaking to a specific context.

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Colossians 1​

23if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.​

The Son being the Creator is a clear expression of his DEITY, and the context continues to talk about his preeminence (vs. 18).

Any passage that speaks of creation says that God is the prime mover doing the creating through him.

Just for starters:

See Hebrews 1:1,2 where in the past God spoke through the prophets, but in the last days spoke through the son. That means God didn't speak through the Son in the past, therefore God didn't create the universe through the Son in the past. The universe was not made in the "last days" about ~2,000 ago. This translation is corrupted. The correct word is "ages" rather than universe. God made the church age through Jesus in these last days.

I agree that "God is not man," which is a category mistake and a ontological error. We say, "Jesus Christ is both God and man" (a union) and we don't claim "God is a man."

Who is we? I am using the internal witness of the Bible. The internal witness of the Bible is that God is not a man and Jesus is a man. Therefore Jesus is not God.

For example, Jesus Christ being Fully Human is derived from the human nature being composed of the whole body and soul/spirit, with all of the human attributes and properties.

You eventually had to convert God from a Person into a Nature and then in that way you make it so that Jesus has the Nature of God - presto changeo - now you have turned Jesus into God; the buck stops here.

God is person. If X person has the nature of X person then that person does not become the person they have the nature of. What you said sounds religious, but it's false.

Let's quote what the trinitarian commentary Got Questions says on the matter:

Is God a person?

"God shows His personal nature in that He expresses anger (Psalm 7:11), laughs (Psalm 2:4), has compassion (Psalm 135:14), loves (1 John 4:8), hates (Psalm 11:5), teaches (John 14:25), reproves (John 16:8), and leads (Romans 8:14). All of these actions imply the fact that God is a person."

The Son-person isn't created, but always been God eternally.

By all accounts, being the Son, he had a beginning point. The new testament repeatedly says Jesus is a begotten Son. All begotten Sons have a beginning point or they simply aren't begotten. How did you miss this? What is your work around for this?

Also, to worship any of the persons individually in the Trinity is giving glory to all three persons. The Father and the Son shares glory (John 11:4, 17:10).

If The Father and Son share glory and to you that means "they are God" then how about when the Son shared glory with his disciples? Are they God too?

John 17​

22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—​

The Holy Spirit glorifies the Son (John 16:14)

It isn't another person in the trinity. In this context the "spirit of truth" is an it, not a person. I don't want to get long-winded into the Greek grammar, but it is a neuter noun, not a he or she, but sometimes the Holy Spirit is a reference to God Himself because God is both holy and Spirit.

For example, John 14:17 in the New American Bible writers about the Spirit of truth like this:

New American Bible
the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.

Furthermore, the Holy Spirit isn't a person who knows the Father or Son according to Jesus. If the Holy Spirit is a different person who is omniscient, then what Jesus said is demonstrably false. That's a big big problem for your trinity isn't it.

No mention of the Holy Spirit knowing who the Father and Son are:

Matt 11​

27All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.​

I understand what you are suggesting but having the Son on that particular level. The object of your faith and the one who receives your prayers is only a human being?

Then it sounds like you're saying God is perpetuating sin and idolatry by choosing a man to save the world through, anointing him, and glorifying him. Why can't God do that? Maybe you need to repent.

We already had that discussion. Granville Sharp’s rule refutes Two Person view in 2 Peter 1:1 "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" and Titus 2:13 "our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ."

The "Granville-Sharp rule" didn't exist in the Greek language. It was worked into the text by English translators so that when trinitarians got put into a corner they could maintain plausible deniability indefinitely. Altering the Bible to bolster one's position is necessary for a theology and religion like trinitarianism that is not explicitly stated or described in the Bible.

This shows your lack of knowledge in both the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union. Subordination is part of the framework. We call it "Relational/Economical Trinity" and the "Two Wills of Christ."

That sounds like a workaround. The Bible plainly says God is greater than Jesus.

Not according to John 8:58, Exodus 3:14.

Compare Exodus 3:14,15 to Acts 3:13. Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Jesus Christ is Omniscient

When you make these sort of grandiose claims you need to be right all the time. I only need to prove you wrong one time.

Jesus is not omniscient:

Matt 24​

36No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.​

Jesus Christ is Omnipotent

Jesus is not omnipotent:

Hebrews 5​

7During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence.​

Jesus Christ is Omnipresent

Jesus is not omnipresent:

Mark 1​

45Instead he went out and began to talk freely, spreading the news. As a result, Jesus could no longer enter a town openly but stayed outside in lonely places. Yet the people still came to him from everywhere.​

In Trinitarianism, we teach the Greek word homoousio, which simply means "same essence." Whatever the Father is, the Son is.

Hebrews 4:15 says Jesus was tempted to sin in every way, but did not sin. However, James 1:13 says God cannot be tempted to sin. There nature isn't identical. Before you go mouthing off about the hypostatic union again maybe you should take some time to try to prove it even exists.

Really? (Matthew 14:33, Luke 24:52). Again, you really don't understand the Trinity. The Father receiving glory is part of the framework.

They worshipped Jesus and called him the Son of God. Why do you change "son of God" to "God the Son?" Do you also do that for other sons of God or just Jesus?

 

[Fred]

I don't respect you or like you, but that doesn't mean I will speak to you in a manner that isn't civil. However, I will not dignify your every whim. If you want answers then do your homework.

Then don't ask me questions when you previously ignore what I request from you.

 

[Mr GLee]

The above is a total dodge that Jesus is worshiped in equality with the Father in Revelation 5:13.

It would seem you are doing the dodging of the "wrath of God" making the dying creation Jesus equal with eternal invisible God. the one faithful Creator

God is not a Jewish man, the abomination of desolation taking away what belongs to eternal God and given it over to temporal dying mankind

Roman 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature (Jesus the son of man, dying mankind ) more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.