Was the Spirit of God Indwelling the Redeemed before Pentecost?

[brightfame52]

Hi bright.

The Promise of the Father, the NT indwelling of the Holy Spirit was not given until Pentecost. So Matthew 16 was before Pentecost. 1 John was written to NT Christians, after Pentecost who already had the NT indwelling.

The pre-cross OT saints, like Peter, had some exposure to God, but it was lacking. This is evident in how Peter was before and then after Pentecost. These OT passages explain what was to come. The Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit. All of these passages speak of what was later fulfilled at Pentecost.

John 14:25-26"These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

John 7:38, 39, He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. (fulfilled at Pentecost)

16:7, 13: Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

14:16, 17: And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

There is one of two ways one could interpret John 14:16-17. The "and will be in you" is in reference to the Promise of the Father, the NT indwelling of the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost. The "He dwells with you" could be Jesus speaking of Himself in His incarnation, or it could be a reference to the OT relationship between man and the Holy Spirit. Perhaps a reference to the Holy Spirit "coming upon" a believer, as it is usually referred to in the OT. And in that light, Peter could have spoken a truth from the Father, before the NT indwelling was given. It's still from the Holy Spirit, but that relationship got a lot better at Pentecost.

Be careful taking some passages too literally. We know Peter was a believer, I'm just making the point to be careful to hang your hat on those passages taken too literally. We could pit Romans 10:9 against Matthew 7:20-23 to make that point. I would consider Jesus' statement to Peter in Matthew 16:17 to be meaning something more like "your genuine profession from faith could have only come from the Father", or something along those lines. Just sayin'.

Dave

I believe all people of faith were born again of the Spirit, to include OT Saints. The Day of Pentecost wasn't about regeneration

 

[Dave]

I believe all people of faith were born again of the Spirit, to include OT Saints. The Day of Pentecost wasn't about regeneration

Hi Bright.

We are born again through the death and resurrection of Jesus. Saved through the resurrection, raised up with Him, are phrases repeated over and over in NT scripture with regards to our salvation. Only "in Christ" could we have access to His death and resurrection to be raised up with him, born again, but this access was only available at Pentecost and after, and of course, that was after His resurrection. The agent of that baptism was and is the Promise of the Father given at Pentecost, the Holy Spirit. Being in Christ after the death, resurrection, and ascension gives us everything we need. Before the death, resurrection, and ascension, none of those things were available to us, most importantly, the agent of that baptism.

If you like, you can read more about it here.

D

Thread 'What Happened In Acts?'

Feb 4, 2025

OT SAINTS SAVED BY FAITH

First, to grasp what was happening in Acts, you must understand that the OT saints were also saved by faith. They put their faith in God that He would provide a Savior. God had passed over their sins until Christ died on the cross.

Hebrews 10:1-4 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more...

• Dave
• Replies: 9
• Forum: The Gospels and Acts

• 

Dave

 

[makesends]

Doesn't matter what the Calvinists/Reformed thinks, scripture tells you when the Holy Spirit was to be a permanent fixture in believers is when Jesus Christ was no longer present with the disciples as for why the Holy Spirit has to be sent from the Father.

Does matter what they think. I'm looking for an explanation that makes sense. By referring to that, you have not explained away the need of the indwelling of the Spirit for the very essence of salvific faith in the OT believer.

The passage (in John 16, which I take to be related to John 14) where Jesus speaks of what seems, even, (to the human ear), a displacement principle, "...if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.", is one of the best I know of to show that I am wrong, and while I can't argue it away nor have I yet heard a good explanation of it, what I am looking for is more than that one alone. But thanks for the John 14 mention.

John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

From Pentecost onward....all saved believers has the Holy Ghost since salvation and He can never leave us unlike the way He did in the O.T.

Psalm 51: 11 Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me. ( quoted from @Arial 's post )

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

So when Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to the 12 disciples, including Judas Iscariot, in Matthew 10th chapter, that was a temporary indwelling. And the same goes for John 20:22 when Thomas the disciple was not with them. Both were temporary because Jesus was with them.
When Jesus had ascended to the Father above, thus glorified, was when the promise was to be sent when He was no longer with them.
John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

That is what Jesus told Nicodemus for when a believer will be born again of the Spirit which is after His ascension which is after His crucifixion.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I have no way to know that it was a temporary indwelling, but your saying so. Is it not possible that it was the permanent indwelling, in category, "kind" of indwelling by quality of the thing, and Pentecost a "filling up" in degree? To me, what happened at Pentecost was like what happened many times in the Old Testament —a spectacular thing done particularly and temporally, for a given purpose.

I believe He did not indwell an entire group of people as He does after the crucifixion and resurrection. This idea comes from two places off the top of my head at the moment. Psalm 51: 11 Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.

This is psalms, poetry—not that theology can't come from there, but.... David may just be expressing his sentiments, and acknowledging the loss of fellowship he feels. Also, David may not even have known that the Spirit never altogether leaves; there isn't an awful lot of explicit OT teaching on the matter.

John 20:21-22 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you, as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." And when He has said this, He breathed on them and said to them,"Receive the Holy Spirit."

We see in the OT the Holy Spirit equipping certain individuals for certain tasks, and leading them in that task. Among other things. After Pentecost the Holy Spirit indwells all believers and continually works in them to know and do the will of God. God, it seems to me, would have to regenerate anyone who believes and trusts Him to the level of the OT saints, since He also says "no one seeks me." The difference is that it was not all Israel, and it was attached to the Law which was the standard God established for a specific community. Some learned the spirit of the law, and spiritual things are only spiritually understood, and were obedient, though not perfectly, to that as well as the letter.

Lol, what would this be called, the Ordo Indwellitis? I think I follow what you are saying is the order in which indwelling began as an institutional fact—pretty much the same as CB4us and those I quote below, though CrowCross seems to have a half-breed going there.

Was the Spirit of God Indwelling the Redeemed before Pentecost?​

I would say no. Did the Holy Spirit indwell some "select" people before Pentecost yes.

Would you say, then, that some redeemed Elect were not saved by faith before Pentecost? Or do you think the faith is man-made and not Spirit-generated ...no need for the Spirit's indwelling?

There are a couple of New Testament examples of the Old Covenant 'New Birth/Regeneration/Born Again' experience. One, is in John 3 when Jesus describes the New Birth as the wind coming and going; and the Lord Conflates this with the Holy Ghost coming and going during the New Birth. This was the Old Covenant Saint's experience, not ours.

Why do you parallel the fact of the unaccountability of the Spirit ("coming and going") to the notion that it comes and goes in the OT believers? Where is the warrant for that?

Secondly, we're told when a spirit is cast out, it returns to find it's home cleansed and in order; but not Indwelt. This is an example of the New Birth under the Old Covenant; not the New Covenant...

That is assertion, not explanation, unless you can show me warrant for this assertion. If your warrant is that I have no other explanation for that passage, you would be wrong—to me it is far more easily understood to refer to simple exorcism of the unsaved, or even not to be referring to actual exorcism, but the principle of replacing bad habits with good, instead of simply getting rid of the bad habits.

These two are tied together by Saint Paul telling us the New Birth is the Washing of Regeneration and the Renewal of the Spirit. When a demon was cast out, the Holy Spirit would cleanse the temple of their bodies. They received a New Heart, which is synonymous with a new spirit. But the Old Testament Saints weren't Indwelt, the Spirit would come and go...

That is still reasoning by assumption. It works for you, I suppose, but not for me.

I appreciate everyone's input, and I will study on it more, but though I am in the minority here, I don't see how it is possible for a person to be saved apart from the indwelling of the Spirit, regardless of the placement of Pentecost, (and regardless of several other things thrown at me), because, 1) there is only ever one Gospel, and, 2) it is (in my opinion) endemic to the Gospel that the faith by which we are saved (OT and NT) is the work of the continual action of the Spirit of God indwelling. I will easily admit I could be wrong, but I see no warrant to suppose that the Spirit has ever regenerated anyone temporarily, nor that faith comes and goes as far as the quality of it, but only in degree of power and purpose.

 

[CrowCross]

Would you say, then, that some redeemed Elect were not saved by faith before Pentecost?

All were saved by faith.

Or do you think the faith is man-made and not Spirit-generated ...no need for the Spirit's indwelling?

Faith is spirit generated.

 

[makesends]

I think Verses can have multiple meanings. Does the Verse have Eschatological meaning? Does the Verse have Evangelistic meaning? That's one of my favorite questions to ask of a Verse. Does the Verse have Soteriological meaning?

And so on, and so on...

In the Old Covenant, when an Evil spirit was cast out; who cleansed the body? It's the Holy Spirit. The Verse is primarily speaking of an individual, right?

Dispensational Eschatology takes a back seat to this...

I don't entirely disagree with you —to me a word's (phrase, sentence, verse) use is part of what gives its meaning— but the usual teaching of hermeneutics, which is very useful to know, is the axiom, "One meaning, many applications". Most well-taught Bible students would say those are applications.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Not really. My problem is when a Calvinist says that regeneration changes a person such that they don't need the Holy Spirit anymore.

It's easy for a dispensationalist, for example, to say that salvation (and, I suppose, sanctification) was different under the Old Testament Gospel, and it is one of their statements I found hard to swallow even when I was one of them. It always bothered me that they seemed to think that there were two gospels.

I find no reason to believe that a changed, regenerated, person is ontologically different, in and of himself, from the way he was before regeneration, apart from the continuing indwelling Spirit of God.

I agree, that's terrible. We can do nothing without God...

To be fair, I shouldn't say that I've ever heard them say that as such. But, to me, if someone says that the Spirit did not indwell any Elect redeemed before Pentecost, or indwelt them long enough for them to have salvific faith alone, to me, at least, that is what it reduces to.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Or do you think the faith is man-made and not Spirit-generated ...no need for the Spirit's indwelling?

Faith is spirit generated.

Yes, but is it generated by the indwelling Spirit of God, or by the Spirit's once-and-done?

Is it a magical substance that remains intact after the Spirit returns to its usual business?

 

[CrowCross]

makesends said:
Or do you think the faith is man-made and not Spirit-generated ...no need for the Spirit's indwelling?

Yes, but is it generated by the indwelling Spirit of God, or by the Spirit's once-and-done?

It is Holy Spirit generated.

Is it a magical substance that remains intact after the Spirit returns to its usual business?

Do you equate magical with supernatural?

 

[atpollard]

makesends said:
Or do you think the faith is man-made and not Spirit-generated ...no need for the Spirit's indwelling?

Yes, but is it generated by the indwelling Spirit of God, or by the Spirit's once-and-done?

Is it a magical substance that remains intact after the Spirit returns to its usual business?

You are asking important metaphysical questions about the nature/substance of "faith", but phrasing it in a deliberately "snarky" tone.
Why?

For example, "once-and-done" is a deliberately inflammatory wording ... almost unavoidably designed to cause offense.
Yet the question of whether the FAITH (scripture claims is given to us) becomes an innate part of our "new man" or whether it is an ongoing "gift" that must continuously flow and be renewed is a valid question to ask.

Another way to phrase the same question is with Paul's analogy of "slaves to sin". Few would argue that our chains were broken (that is a given), but what is our new state? Are we ETERNALLY UNCHAINED or is it more like the "house" cleaned of demons where something more powerful must take residence (slaves to Righteousness) or the old will return and we will be even worse off?

Once-and-done might be "accurate" and pithy, but it was not conducive to polite conversation. It carries strong negative connotations.

 

[Mr GLee]

Does matter what they think. I'm looking for an explanation that makes sense. By referring to that, you have not explained away the need of the indwelling of the Spirit for the very essence of salvific faith in the OT believer.

The passage (in John 16, which I take to be related to John 14) where Jesus speaks of what seems, even, (to the human ear), a displacement principle, "...if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.", is one of the best I know of to show that I am wrong, and while I can't argue it away nor have I yet heard a good explanation of it, what I am looking for is more than that one alone. But thanks for the John 14 mention.



I have no way to know that it was a temporary indwelling, but your saying so. Is it not possible that it was the permanent indwelling, in category, "kind" of indwelling by quality of the thing, and Pentecost a "filling up" in degree? To me, what happened at Pentecost was like what happened many times in the Old Testament —a spectacular thing done particularly and temporally, for a given purpose.

This is psalms, poetry—not that theology can't come from there, but.... David may just be expressing his sentiments, and acknowledging the loss of fellowship he feels. Also, David may not even have known that the Spirit never altogether leaves; there isn't an awful lot of explicit OT teaching on the matter.

Lol, what would this be called, the Ordo Indwellitis? I think I follow what you are saying is the order in which indwelling began as an institutional fact—pretty much the same as CB4us and those I quote below, though CrowCross seems to have a half-breed going there.

Would you say, then, that some redeemed Elect were not saved by faith before Pentecost? Or do you think the faith is man-made and not Spirit-generated ...no need for the Spirit's indwelling?

Why do you parallel the fact of the unaccountability of the Spirit ("coming and going") to the notion that it comes and goes in the OT believers? Where is the warrant for that?

That is assertion, not explanation, unless you can show me warrant for this assertion. If your warrant is that I have no other explanation for that passage, you would be wrong—to me it is far more easily understood to refer to simple exorcism of the unsaved, or even not to be referring to actual exorcism, but the principle of replacing bad habits with good, instead of simply getting rid of the bad habits.

That is still reasoning by assumption. It works for you, I suppose, but not for me.

I appreciate everyone's input, and I will study on it more, but though I am in the minority here, I don't see how it is possible for a person to be saved apart from the indwelling of the Spirit, regardless of the placement of Pentecost, (and regardless of several other things thrown at me), because, 1) there is only ever one Gospel, and, 2) it is (in my opinion) endemic to the Gospel that the faith by which we are saved (OT and NT) is the work of the continual action of the Spirit of God indwelling. I will easily admit I could be wrong, but I see no warrant to suppose that the Spirit has ever regenerated anyone temporarily, nor that faith comes and goes as far as the quality of it, but only in degree of power and purpose.

I would offer.

It has much to do with how some use the word "Pentecost" some calling it the beginning of the apostolical church age an oral tradition of dying mankind

The true beginning .The bride of Christ which did begin with Able the prophet\ martyr used to represent mankind must be born again by and through the spiritual seed Christ the living word the seed was passed down to Enos anther second born It was then and not before that born again dying mankind could call on the lord

Genesis 4:26And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

Not at Pentecost

Catholicism destroying the intended meaning of the words apostle which simply is "sent messenger" sent with beautiful feet UPS, FED X, Pony Express, Amazon, Ubber. Air mail, Carrier Pigeon's. . my wives favorite apostle myself .

She sends me a mission to the supermarket with a list not to add to or subtract from .Upon completing the mission, the apostle's reward two homemade peanut butter cookies and a cold glass of whole milk. LOL

The time of reformation spoken of in Joel. No longer a Jewish men's club only. No female prophets when there were kings in Isreal both Jewish women and Gentiles we not allowed to participate . Both 15 foot high walls came down "the abomination of desolation' made desolate by the word of God .

The Old Testament ceremonial shadows that; pointed a head to the suffering of Christ beforehand disappeared. . one new ceremonial law 1 Corinthian 11.is given to represent all the nations of the world, Mixed Jews could now fellowship as one bride with the gentiles

A great Joy for the believing inward Jew one like never before or ever again. a great tribulation to the outward Jew that was trusting their own dying flesh. . one like never before or ever again

Acts 2:15-17For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;;And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

 

[makesends]

You are asking important metaphysical questions about the nature/substance of "faith", but phrasing it in a deliberately "snarky" tone.
Why?

For example, "once-and-done" is a deliberately inflammatory wording ... almost unavoidably designed to cause offense.

Actually, I meant it as merely descriptive. I didn't say, "hit and run". I was trying to come up with a concise description of what I wanted to find out whether it was the thinking. I'm not trying to oppose anyone, nor to win a debate by antagonism—actually, I'm not trying to win a debate at all, but to find out what the thinking is, and why it is, and how to adjust what I think, even if it means I have to change what I think appropriately to good sense and the Scriptures. If it must remain disagreement, then so be it, but I want to know what we are disagreeing about.

Yet the question of whether the FAITH (scripture claims is given to us) becomes an innate part of our "new man" or whether it is an ongoing "gift" that must continuously flow and be renewed is a valid question to ask.

Another way to phrase the same question is with Paul's analogy of "slaves to sin". Few would argue that our chains were broken (that is a given), but what is our new state? Are we ETERNALLY UNCHAINED or is it more like the "house" cleaned of demons where something more powerful must take residence (slaves to Righteousness) or the old will return and we will be even worse off?

Once-and-done might be "accurate" and pithy, but it was not conducive to polite conversation. It carries strong negative connotations.

I'm sorry for coming across like that. It was not intentional. Another way to say what I am trying to say, as I understand the whole of the Gospel and the way of life 'in Christ', that it doesn't add up to me that Salvation is not continued in the same Spirit and Means in Sanctification. It makes no sense to me that the Old Testament saints would be Justified and given salvific Faith, and then left alone to try to be faithful on their own.

I'm sorry if that doesn't explain well what I'm trying to get at. I'm pressed for time today, and am not naturally good at expressing myself.

 

[makesends]

It is Holy Spirit generated.

Do you equate magical with supernatural?

Not really, no. When I say magical, I usually mean contrary to good sense.

And I don't at all mean, miracle. That is a whole different category.

 

[brightfame52]

Hi Bright.

We are born again through the death and resurrection of Jesus. Saved through the resurrection, raised up with Him, are phrases repeated over and over in NT scripture with regards to our salvation. Only "in Christ" could we have access to His death and resurrection to be raised up with him, born again, but this access was only available at Pentecost and after, and of course, that was after His resurrection. The agent of that baptism was and is the Promise of the Father given at Pentecost, the Holy Spirit. Being in Christ after the death, resurrection, and ascension gives us everything we need. Before the death, resurrection, and ascension, none of those things were available to us, most importantly, the agent of that baptism.

If you like, you can read more about it here.

D

Thread 'What Happened In Acts?'

Feb 4, 2025

OT SAINTS SAVED BY FAITH

First, to grasp what was happening in Acts, you must understand that the OT saints were also saved by faith. They put their faith in God that He would provide a Savior. God had passed over their sins until Christ died on the cross.

Hebrews 10:1-4 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more...

• Dave
• Replies: 9
• Forum: The Gospels and Acts

• 

Dave

I believe all people of faith were born again of the Spirit, to include OT Saints. The Day of Pentecost wasn't about regeneration. Christs Death and resurrection was retroactive,

retroactive. adjective. ret·ro·ac·tive ˌre-trō-ˈak-tiv. : extending in scope or effect to a prior time or to conditions that existed or originated in the past

 

[Mr GLee]

For example, "once-and-done" is a deliberately inflammatory wording ... almost unavoidably designed to cause offense.
Yet the question of whether the FAITH (scripture claims is given to us) becomes an innate part of our "new man" or whether it is an ongoing "gift" that must continuously flow and be renewed is a valid question to ask.

Another For example, once-and- done. "Let there be" and "it was God alone good"

Christ's labor of love or called a work of His faith.

His powerful Let there be faith it is never with the labor of His love .


We cannot have our new born again faith towards him unless he first gives us his understanding of faith

The apposing law a salvation without grace keep on suffering wondering in a place called Limbo for the younger sinners (venial) and Purgatory for the more mature sinner (mortal.)

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? (the letter death ) Nay: but by the law of (Christ's) faith.(the unseen eternal )

 

[Dave]

I believe all people of faith were born again of the Spirit, to include OT Saints. The Day of Pentecost wasn't about regeneration. Christs Death and resurrection was retroactive,

retroactive. adjective. ret·ro·ac·tive ˌre-trō-ˈak-tiv. : extending in scope or effect to a prior time or to conditions that existed or originated in the past

Hi bright.

I'm not sure why you would say that the day of Pentecost was not about regeneration. It had everything to do with regeneration.

Pre Pentecost
John 14:25-26"These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Pre Pentecost
16:7,13: Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

The Helper, Teacher, Advocate, etc, was not given until Pentecost. These are just a few verses that speak of the regeneration that results from that NT indwelling. Also, no one ascended until after Pentecost.

Pre Pentecost. If retroactive, then why the wait?

John 3:5,13 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God...No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Ephesians 4:7-10 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Right here is when OT saints, along with Paradise, were taken to the third heaven from Hades.

Acts 2:31-33 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

1 Peter 3:18-19 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,

No OT saint was in the presence of the Father until after their sin was atoned, until after the righteousness of God that justifies was established, until after the Spirit of God was given to allow a spiritual union between man and Jesus. That's why Pentecost is called the birth of the Church. Because nobody was in that spiritual body, in Christ, until the agent of that union was given at Pentecost. The first born again believers were the first placed into that spiritual union at Pentecost.

Dave

 

[Mr GLee]

Hi bright.

I'm not sure why you would say that the day of Pentecost was not about regeneration. It had everything to do with regeneration.

Pre Pentecost
John 14:25-26"These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Pre Pentecost
16:7,13: Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

The Helper, Teacher, Advocate, etc, was not given until Pentecost. These are just a few verses that speak of the regeneration that results from that NT indwelling. Also, no one ascended until after Pentecost.

Pre Pentecost. If retroactive, then why the wait?

John 3:5,13 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God...No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Ephesians 4:7-10 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Right here is when OT saints, along with Paradise, were taken to the third heaven from Hades.

Acts 2:31-33 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

1 Peter 3:18-19 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,

No OT saint was in the presence of the Father until after their sin was atoned, until after the righteousness of God that justifies was established, until after the Spirit of God was given to allow a spiritual union between man and Jesus. That's why Pentecost is called the birth of the Church. Because nobody was in that spiritual body, in Christ, until the agent of that union was given at Pentecost. The first born again believers were the first placed into that spiritual union at Pentecost.

Dave

Hi Dave

It would seem you are confusing the first century reformation spoken of in Hebrew 9 with the idea of the beginning of church the righteousness of grace. Beginning with Abel a member of the bride the church the foundation in Genesis 4.

Christ had no grace for Cain. He murdered Abel the prophet martyr. God replaced him with another second born used to represent mankind "must be born again" That seed (spiritual) Christ was passed down from the second born again until the birth of the Son of man, Jesus

The foundation of the first century reformation is found in 1 Samuael 8. The atheist Jew had become jealous of al the surrounding Pagan nations with thier pagan foundation "out of sight out of mind" .No invisible powerful father reigning over them and wanted a King to reign over them. They refused to walk or understand the invisible things of Christ as it is written (sola scriptura )

God gave them over to the pagan tradition until the time of reformation and then the shows became sight Christ returned as invisible King of kings seen and invisible Lord of lords seen

 

[CrowCross]

Not really, no. When I say magical, I usually mean contrary to good sense.

And I don't at all mean, miracle. That is a whole different category.

Then what does this mean? In an earlier post you asked... "Is it a magical substance that remains intact after the Spirit returns to its usual business?"

 

[brightfame52]

@Dave

I'm not sure why you would say that the day of Pentecost was not about regeneration.

No it didnt have anything to do with regeneration. The Saints had Faith way back with Abel Heb 11 and Faith is the fruit of regeneration or the Spirit. The disciples, they were regenerated way b4 Pentecost Jn 1:12-13

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
They were believers first, so they would be given the Holy Spirit Jn 7:39

(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

You cant believe on Christ without being regenerated. Jn 1:12-13

 

[makesends]

Then what does this mean? In an earlier post you asked... "Is it a magical substance that remains intact after the Spirit returns to its usual business?"

I'm sorry, but I need you to link that.

 

[CrowCross]

I'm sorry, but I need you to link that.

here is the link.