Was the Spirit of God Indwelling the Redeemed before Pentecost?

[ChristB4us]

The voice of our invisible God who is Light and not that he can only create it temporal . His glory as Light departed from the corrupted creation day 3 .

You need to clarify that comment, Are you referring to the third day of creation week or are you referring to the third day that He rose from the dead?

Seeing false pride in the heart of Lucifer who was to protect Christ's glory but rather usurped it as the "god" of this word Lucifer the legion of lying spirits .

FYI Lucifer is not the original name for Satan as that term does not exists anywhere in the Greek manuscripts regarding Isaiah 14:12 as it was a term borrowed from the Latin Vulgate as a reference to the planet Venus, that "son of the morning". The proverbs in Isaiah 14th chapter was about a king in Babylon for boasting of himself in the sight of God and men for why it was prophesied that he shall die and his corpse shall be left unburied

The father displaying his power working in His son who had no power . The Son of man Jesus arose with power of the Father .

Jesus has the power of God as God Our Creator & as God Our Redeemer as Jesus is submissive to His Father's will as the Holy Spirit does as well for why & how "They" are the One God.

Two gods . One the eternal Faithful Creator Christ and the other the temporal dying creation. Born again sons of God outwardly diplatying the power of the Father.

John 10:34-36 King James Version34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

We are married to Christ the Bridegroom, by faith in Jesus Christ, for how we are One with the Lord & how we can call God Father too.

1 Corinthians 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Those that are worthy of the firstfruits of the resurrection, shall be one with the Father in Heaven as well in that we will never sin against God ever again to be separated from God ever again because of sin.

God is with us while we are in this vile body of death but soon, by our hope in Jesus Christ, we shall be raptured & united with God the Father in Heaven where we will never sin nor be separated from the Father ever again.

 

[Mr GLee]

You need to clarify that comment, Are you referring to the third day of creation week or are you referring to the third day that He rose from the dead?

Creation week day three seeing pride in the heart of the father of lies his Light of the whole world departed .Day created four tow time keeper winding down to last day under the Sun

FYI Lucifer is not the original name for Satan as that term does not exists anywhere in the Greek manuscripts regarding Isaiah 14:12 as it was a term borrowed from the Latin Vulgate as a reference to the planet Venus, that "son of the morning". The proverbs in Isaiah 14th chapter was about a king in Babylon for boasting of himself in the sight of God and men for why it was prophesied that he shall die and his corpse shall be left unburied

I agree it could be called "son of the morning" a reflection of the glory .

Jesus has the power of God as God Our Creator & as God Our Redeemer as Jesus is submissive to His Father's will as the Holy Spirit does as well for why & how "They" are the One God.

The power of Christ faithfulness worked in the Son of man Jesus .Jesus demonstrated the work of the unseen Father. The dynamic dual

 

[ChristB4us]

Creation week day three seeing pride in the heart of the father of lies his Light of the whole world departed .Day created four tow time keeper winding down to last day under the Sun

I am not sure where you got that from, but out of all the 6 days of creation, only the 2nd day was the day God did not say it was good only because He was not done creating the earth until day 3 for why He said the earth was good then because He was done creating the earth.

The earth was not there the first day. Light was created to establish the beginning hence time was created by that evening and morning that first 24 hour day.

Then God began to create the earth by dividing the water that was there by a firmament ( gravity ) as that gravity divided in the midst of the water to form "the water planet" from the other water ( the sky or the upper atmosphere ). God did not say it was good because He was not done creating the planet earth until day 3 when He laid the foundation of the earth and then He said it was good as He was done creating the earth.

The creation of the sun, moon, and stars was on the 4th day and God said it was good then too.

So at the end of 6 days of creation, God said it was good for why He rested on the 7th day from all His creation per Genesis 2:1-3.

There was no sin nor any corruption during that 6 day creation week,

Satan, as that old serpent, fell in the Garden of Eden. Note how he was described in the beginning as not cursed at all.

Genesis 3:1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The clue to his coming fall can be seen by how he was described as more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made and so pride comes before the fall.

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

I know there are a lot of false teachings around designating Satan as if he fell before mankind had fallen but no. Satan fell that day when he had tempted mankind to sin, being haughty in spirit and prideful for thinking he could deceive Eve and then use her to tempt Adam to sin.

Everything God has created was from scratch and it was good until mankind had sinned and death came into the world and unto all of creation because of man's sin. One can see that curse on all the established order in the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

Anyway, FYI as the Lord enables me to share as I also know only the Lord can help you receive this truth as found in His words.

 

[Mr GLee]

I am not sure where you got that from, but out of all the 6 days of creation, only the 2nd day was the day God did not say it was good only because He was not done creating the earth until day 3 for why He said the earth was good then because He was done creating the earth.

He declared it was good every day, the last six. it was very good speaking of the whole .He rests on seventh .Seven perfection

I know there are a lot of false teachings around designating Satan as if he fell before mankind had fallen but no. Satan fell that day when he had tempted mankind to sin, being haughty in spirit and prideful for thinking he could deceive Eve and then use her to tempt Adam to sin.

Everything God has created was from scratch and it was good until mankind had sinned and death came into the world and unto all of creation because of man's sin. One can see that curse on all the established order in the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

Anyway, FYI as the Lord enables me to share as I also know only the Lord can help you receive this truth as found in His words.

 

[ChristB4us]

He declared it was good every day, the last six. it was very good speaking of the whole .He rests on seventh .Seven perfection

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Where did God say it was good that second day? I believe He did not say it was good only because He was not done creating the earth until the 3rd day. The second day, He began creating the earth by using the firmament called gravity to divide teh water from the water thus creating a water planet with an upper atmosphere.

Lucifer a spirit of Christ that was to protect the glorious Creation.

Rather than protecting the light of the glory of God he usurped deceiving the creation that he is the Creator.

He became the anti-christ the false teacher that adds and subtracts from prophecy (neither shall you touch )

That is not the truth.

He hates sola scriptura

You adding to His words and making unscriptural comments is aiding and abetting in his endeavor.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

You need the help of the Lord Jesus Christ to resist sinning like that.

God saw pride in his heart on day three .Three denotes the end of a matter. Day four the two corruption time keepers winding down to the last day under the Sun.

No. That is not what was written. So go before that throne of grace for help of the Lord Jesus Christ to repent or risk being left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture for creating heresies which are works of the flesh per Galatians 5:19-21

 

[Mr GLee]

Where did God say it was good that second day? I believe He did not say it was good only because He was not done creating the earth until the 3rd day. The second day, He began creating the earth by using the firmament called gravity to divide teh water from the water thus creating a water planet with an upper atmosphere.

Hi Thanks for the reply

Genesis day two

Genesis 1: 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

That is not the truth.

What was lucifer a spirit sent by God used to protect if not the glory of God not seen.?

You adding to His words and making unscriptural comments is aiding and abetting in his endeavor.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

I am adding my understanding as a opinion .Not the living word sealed with 7 seals till the end of time (Sola Scriptura)

No. That is not what was written. So go before that throne of grace for help of the Lord Jesus Christ to repent or risk being left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture for creating heresies which are works of the flesh per Galatians 5:19-21

The left behind idea is not the gospel . As many as he has given power to come they alone will come .He will never leave of forsake the power of His faithfulness that works in us

Day six. Satan using the woman to represent the church .The father of lies prophesied adding to the word (neither shall you touch) Both Adam who was to protect her from false prophecy touched and did not die so they ate the fruit of death (false prophecy

 

[ChristB4us]

Hi Thanks for the reply

Genesis day two

Genesis 1: 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

That was day 3.

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Nowhere in those 3 verses did God say it was good on that 2nd day because He was not done creating the earth.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

What was lucifer a spirit sent by God used to protect if not the glory of God not seen.?

You do not have any scripture saying that as truth. You are either making it up or somebody is teaching you error

I am adding my understanding as a opinion .Not the living word sealed with 7 seals till the end of time (Sola Scriptura)

From what I can tell, you need an alone time with the Lord and read from the KJV.

The left behind idea is not the gospel . As many as he has given power to come they alone will come .He will never leave of forsake the power of His faithfulness that works in us

He will never cast anyone out of the kingdom of Heaven but He will excommunicate as in cast out those found in unrepentant iniquity for why He does not know them as any iniquity that denies Him, He will deny them per Titus 1:16 from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

Matthew 25:1-13 KJV

That is why the foolish with the wise are the kingdom of Heaven as they were both in it as citizens of Heaven, BUT the foolish missed out on the Marriage Supper with the Bridegroom for being out to the market seeing to be filled with extra oil ( what they believe to be the Holy Spirit, but actually the spirit of the antichrist ) for why He did not know them for being in that iniquity that denies Him whereas the wise knew they were always filled since salvation for how they ARE in that kingdom of Heaven and ready & willing to go when the Bridegroom came.

Day six. Satan using the woman to represent the church .The father of lies prophesied adding to the word (neither shall you touch) Both Adam who was to protect her from false prophecy touched and did not die so they ate the fruit of death (false prophecy

Day six as in the 6th day of creation and mixing it in with the fall of Adam & Eve which was after creation week? Not wise, Mr. Glee . Repent.

 

[Mr GLee]

Nowhere in those 3 verses did God say it was good on that 2nd day because He was not done creating the earth.

Each day he proclaimed it is good .On the last day very good. Then he rested forever

You do not have any scripture saying that as truth. You are either making it up or somebody is teaching you error

Why would you reject lucifer was a spirit sent by God to protect the glory of Christ?

From what I can tell, you need an alone time with the Lord and read from the KJV.

I do read from the KJV.

He will never cast anyone out of the kingdom of Heaven but He will excommunicate as in cast out those found in unrepentant iniquity for why He does not know them as any iniquity that denies Him, He will deny them per Titus 1:16 from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

Matthew 25:1-13 KJV

That is why the foolish with the wise are the kingdom of Heaven as they were both in it as citizens of Heaven, BUT the foolish missed out on the Marriage Supper with the Bridegroom for being out to the market seeing to be filled with extra oil ( what they believe to be the Holy Spirit, but actually the spirit of the antichrist ) for why He did not know them for being in that iniquity that denies Him whereas the wise knew they were always filled since salvation for how they ARE in that kingdom of Heaven and ready & willing to go when the Bridegroom came.

That parable identifies those who believe not.

Not foolish believing sinners that need to repent

Day six as in the 6th day of creation and mixing it in with the fall of Adam & Eve which was after creation week? Not wise, Mr. Glee . Repent.

Mixing the creation with the fall?

 

[ChristB4us]

Each day he proclaimed it is good .On the last day very good. Then he rested forever

Not what the scriptures says for the 2nd day and He gave me discernment & wisdom to know why because that was when He started to create the earth and the second day it was a water planet with the sky for why He did not say it was good because He was not done creating the earth until the 3rd day and then He said it was good because He was done creating the earth.

Why would you reject lucifer was a spirit sent by God to protect the glory of Christ?

Not found in the scriptures.

I do read from the KJV.

Read it by trusting Jesus Christ to be your personal Good Shepherd in giving you wisdom in understanding His words as it is written rather than going off the scripture with false notions.

You are ignoring scripture and teaching things not found in scripture. You need His help.

1 Corinthians 3:1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

 

[Mr GLee]

Not what the scriptures says for the 2nd day and He gave me discernment & wisdom to know why because that was when He started to create the earth and the second day it was a water planet with the sky for why He did not say it was good because He was not done creating the earth until the 3rd day and then He said it was good because He was done creating the earth.

Its exactly what scriptura says after each day he gave his good seal of approval.

Geneisis 1: 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Not found in the scriptures.

Have you searched the meaning of Lucifer and how it is used ?

Read it by trusting Jesus Christ to be your personal Good Shepherd in giving you wisdom in understanding His words as it is written rather than going off the scripture with false notions.

You are ignoring scripture and teaching things not found in scripture. You need His help.

1 Corinthians 3:1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil

How else can we seek the approval of Christ not seen other than reading and seeking the interpreting the spiritual unseen things of Christ.

It would seem you are denying the eternal spiritual the unseen things of Christ .And focusing on the temporal historical.

The the temporal historical must be mixed with the unseen eternal or no gospel rest

Using the valuable prescription given in 2 Corinthians 4 can help divide the parables .Hiding the spiritual not seen from dying mankind .

2 Corinthians 4:18King James Version While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Remember without parables using the temporal things seen the historical it must be mixed with the invisible eternal spiritual No mixing of the parable no gospel rest

Hebrews 4King James Version4 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

 

[donadams]

“All the gifts of the Holy Ghost,” says St. Bernardine of Siena, “are administered by the hands of this virgin to whom she wishes, when she wishes, how she wishes and as much as she wishes.” Proof (Lk 1:41 & Lk 1:67)

We find the same idea expressed by great Fathers of the church like St. Jerome, St. Methodius, St. Damascene!

Lk 1:39-41

41 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;

40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.

41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

“Mary dispensing another gift of the Spirit”

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

Thks

 

[Mr GLee]

“All the gifts of the Holy Ghost,” says St. Bernardine of Siena, “are administered by the hands of this virgin to whom she wishes, when she wishes, how she wishes and as much as she wishes.” Proof (Lk 1:41 & Lk 1:67)

We find the same idea expressed by great Fathers of the church like St. Jerome, St. Methodius, St. Damascene!

Lk 1:39-41

41 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;

40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.

41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

“Mary dispensing another gift of the Spirit”

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

Thks

Hi Don

The word virgin like many words have different applications as understandings . One seen to represent the temporal dying the other not seen the gospel the spiritual understanding hid from the lost

Is it Mary dispensing Mary? Or Mary our blessed sister in the Lord receiving saving grace from the one Holy Father in heaven?

Same one that lovingly commandments us to call no dying man on earth Holy Father, Holy See, Vicar or Rome etc.

And all the atheist Jewish women rights with their approval of hen-pecked husbands demanded his and hers gods that some call patron saints today.

The foundation like all the Pagan religions (out of sight out of mind). God calls fools (no invisible God working in their unredeemed heart

Jerimiah 44: 15-19;Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods,(patron) and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying,As for the word (sola scriptura) that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, (sola scriptura) we will not hearken unto thee.But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?

Trust in our unseen Holy Father the husband of the chaste virgin bride.

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Virgin unmarried. Not sexless. No commandment be fruitless and die

Sexual sin another topic. Confusing it with the word virgin "unmarried" And rather making it about lust of the flesh, lust of the eye the two building blocks of false pride. . . of the god of this world. Not our Holy Father not seen. Man and woman lusting after each other the loss of virtue , the forbidden fruit

1 John 2:16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

 

[makesends]

There are a couple of New Testament examples of the Old Covenant 'New Birth/Regeneration/Born Again' experience. One, is in John 3 when Jesus describes the New Birth as the wind coming and going; and the Lord Conflates this with the Holy Ghost coming and going during the New Birth. This was the Old Covenant Saint's experience, not ours. Secondly, we're told when a spirit is cast out, it returns to find it's home cleansed and in order; but not Indwelt. This is an example of the New Birth under the Old Covenant; not the New Covenant...

These two are tied together by Saint Paul telling us the New Birth is the Washing of Regeneration and the Renewal of the Spirit. When a demon was cast out, the Holy Spirit would cleanse the temple of their bodies. They received a New Heart, which is synonymous with a new spirit. But the Old Testament Saints weren't Indwelt, the Spirit would come and go...

Very good...

When a Non Calvinist agrees the OT Saints weren't Indwelt, that says a lot...

@Eleanor @Arial @ReverendRV @Reformedguy @Josheb @fastfredy0 @atpollard @His clay @Carbon @Ladodgers6 @Red Baker @Manfred @TMSO @Dave_Regenerated @CrazyCalvinistUncle @severalothers,nodoubtPlease note: What I am saying below is what seems to me necessary to believe, but I don't stand behind it as though I am necessarily right, nor that I have even described the notion well. In fact, even what may be taken for defense of the notion is more intended to describe my point-of-view in the matter, and not to defend it.
Seems a lot of Calvinists/Reformed think the Holy Spirit wasn't a fixture until after Pentecost. That is, (if I understand those to whom I have spoken about it), that perhaps the Holy Spirit regenerated people, before Pentecost, but that he didn't indwell them until after Pentecost.

I'm still fighting this in my mind.

If, as I reason, salvific faith is not simply a gift we are given enabling us to believe, but is the beginning and continuing work of the Spirit of God within those he indwells, and that, BECAUSE as humans we are incapable of that kind of (not meaning degree of) faith, lacking the constancy of urgency and integrity, the degree of understanding and of purpose, and so on, which things only God himself possesses, and this work is the very center of the application of the work of Christ upon us, then HOW is it possible that the Old Testament believers/redeemed were not indwelt?

I just don't get this. How can it even be salvific faith, if the Regeneration and Perseverance and every other work we attribute to New Testament believers, and any other virtue to or in or from them, is possible in the Old, without the continuing indwelling of the Spirit?

Is not the necessary and continuing indwelling of the Holy Spirit the same for all the true believers, regardless of WHEN they lived? HOW is it possible that there is any difference?

Maybe I haven't been clear enough. Or maybe, as seems to be the case so often when I speak, everyone's eyes are glazing over by now. Let me try to put it another way.

What is really, in this matter, the difference between the saved in the Old vs in the New Testament

 

[makesends]

I'm still fighting this in my mind.

If, as I reason, salvific faith is not simply a gift we are given enabling us to believe, but is the beginning and continuing work of the Spirit of God within those he indwells, and that, BECAUSE as humans we are incapable of that kind of (not meaning degree of) faith, lacking the constancy of urgency and integrity, the degree of understanding and of purpose, and so on, which things only God himself possesses, and this work is the very center of the application of the work of Christ upon us, then HOW is it possible that the Old Testament believers/redeemed were not indwelt?

I just don't get this. How can it even be salvific faith, if the Regeneration and Perseverance and every other work we attribute to New Testament believers, and any other virtue to or in or from them, is possible in the Old, without the continuing indwelling of the Spirit?

Is not the necessary and continuing indwelling of the Holy Spirit the same for all the true believers, regardless of WHEN they lived? HOW is it possible that there is any difference?

Maybe I haven't been clear enough. Or maybe, as seems to be the case so often when I speak, everyone's eyes are glazing over by now. Let me try to put it another way.

What is really, in this matter, the difference between the saved in the Old vs in the New Testament

How is it possible for the Spirit to regenerate someone, without also remaining?

 

[Mr GLee]

How is it possible for the Spirit to regenerate someone, without also remaining?

Believers have a new regenerated spirit that dwells in a corruptible body. All die not receiving the new bodies that will never die.

 

[Dave]

I'm coming into this discussion very late and am weary of getting involved this late. Mostly because it bothers me when I have to repeat the same things over and over in a thread, so I don't want to make anyone else need do that either. But...two cents....

Think of what happens when you become "in Christ", and ask if those things where available in the OT. Being "in Christ" in the OT didn't have the same benefits legally. The means of that union that satisfied our salvation legally were not yet available. That's why Adam and Eve had to separate from God instead of hanging around on credit. God's justice had to be met. The cross, atonement for sin. That's why nobody had been born again in the OT. There was no death and resurrection to die and be raised up in spiritually. Over and over we read through the resurrection of Jesus Christ we are saved. That's why believers in the OT were kept in Abrahams bosom until all those conditions were met. And we see the apostles both before and after Pentecost. The relationship between man and God the Holy Spirit had changed from before and after Pentecost. The Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit, at Pentecost ushered in the NT. BTW Covenant means Testament. New Covenant, new Testament. The death of the Testator, according to Hebrews, ushers in the new Testament.

Anyways, I'll start a thread on this. Maybe in the Bible study section when I get around to it. It's a very good topic but gets into a lot of different things


Dave

 

[Dave]

How is it possible for the Spirit to regenerate someone, without also remaining?

The relationship between man and the Holy Spirit in the OT was limited in a lot of ways. That's why I cut Peter some slack for the way he acted before Pentecost. Before Pentecost, the Apostles were bumbling, stumbling, lack of faith scaredy cats. Afterwards, they became the opposite. That's a picture of some of the differences between the OT and NT relationship between man and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit could come and go in the OT. In the NT He was the Seal of our inheritance. etc. Remember, the NT doesn't begin until the cross. So while we call Matthew, Mark, Luke and John the NT, it's really still the OT up until each records the death of Jesus on the cross. And there was a super dose of filling of the Holy Spirit for the Apostles also.

Here's an example of how that relationship changes from OT to NT. This is OT. The recorded NT begins at at Acts when the first believers were spiritually baptized into the Body by Jesus with the Holy Spirit. The birth of the Church. This is the before picture.

John 14:26: Jesus says, "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you".

I couldn't dot all the "I"s and cross all the "T"s, but we see in scripture the limitations of that regeneration in the OT, but it was regeneration none the less.

 

[makesends]

The relationship between man and the Holy Spirit in the OT was limited in a lot of ways. That's why I cut Peter some slack for the way he acted before Pentecost. Before Pentecost, the Apostles were bumbling, stumbling, lack of faith scaredy cats. Afterwards, they became the opposite. That's a picture of some of the differences between the OT and NT relationship between man and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit could come and go in the OT. In the NT He was the Seal of our inheritance. etc. Remember, the NT doesn't begin until the cross. So while we call Matthew, Mark, Luke and John the NT, it's really still the OT up until each records the death of Jesus on the cross. And there was a super dose of filling of the Holy Spirit for the Apostles also.

Here's an example of how that relationship changes from OT to NT. This is OT. The recorded NT begins at at Acts when the first believers were spiritually baptized into the Body by Jesus with the Holy Spirit. The birth of the Church. This is the before picture.

John 14:26: Jesus says, "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you".

I couldn't dot all the "I"s and cross all the "T"s, but we see in scripture the limitations of that regeneration in the OT, but it was regeneration none the less.

So, your notion of the Holy Spirit's filling and the Holy Spirit's indwelling are one and the same?

I see the filling as a matter of degree, but the indwelling and all resulting virtues, and particularly the regeneration and faith, are a matter of validity, and not degree. He either does, or does not, indwell, change and keep us.

One of my most vehement arguments for monergism has to do with what it means to be "in him". It is not only a legal placement, but an actual change of existence, from death to life. Not just an entrance to a new life, but the substance of that new life, which Jesus characterized as "stream (spring, fountain) of living water". If, as I believe, this is endemic to the Gospel, and the Gospel is the same from Genesis to Revelation, and the means of continuing belief is not the regeneration being "one and done", but, rather, continuing power of the Spirit of God living within, then how were the Old Testament saints regenerated and saved, if not the same way as New Testament?

 

[Mr GLee]

The relationship between man and the Holy Spirit in the OT was limited in a lot of ways. That's why I cut Peter some slack for the way he acted before Pentecost. Before Pentecost, the Apostles were bumbling, stumbling, lack of faith scaredy cats. Afterwards, they became the opposite. That's a picture of some of the differences between the OT and NT relationship between man and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit could come and go in the OT. In the NT He was the Seal of our inheritance. etc. Remember, the NT doesn't begin until the cross. So while we call Matthew, Mark, Luke and John the NT, it's really still the OT up until each records the death of Jesus on the cross. And there was a super dose of filling of the Holy Spirit for the Apostles also.

Here's an example of how that relationship changes from OT to NT. This is OT. The recorded NT begins at at Acts when the first believers were spiritually baptized into the Body by Jesus with the Holy Spirit. The birth of the Church. This is the before picture.

John 14:26: Jesus says, "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you".

I couldn't dot all the "I"s and cross all the "T"s, but we see in scripture the limitations of that regeneration in the OT, but it was regeneration none the le

It is all together one testament. God working in the affairs of dying mankind. No division

The first apostle sent messenger was Abel the second born used to represent the spiritual seed Christ.

The setting up of a person must be born again doctrine.

God replaced Abel with another second born .It was then and not before that born again mankind could cry out knowing they are heard

Geneisis 4:25-26And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

 

[makesends]

It is all together one testament. God working in the affairs of dying mankind. No division

The first apostle sent messenger was Abel the second born used to represent the spiritual seed Christ.

I still don't understand how you come up with this notion of Abel being an apostle or prophet. Is this something you read in Scripture? Is it only something that makes sense to you? How does it make sense to you?

The setting up of a person must be born again doctrine.

What are you talking about here? What are you referring to by "the setting up of a person"?

God replaced Abel with another second born .It was then and not before that born again mankind could cry out knowing they are heard

We don't know that from the text.

Geneisis 4:25-26And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

Genesis only says that (apparently after*) Enos, men began to call upon the name of the Lord. We don't even know what that means in this context. It could even mean that men began to practice organized religion or even superstitious religion, instead of dealing directly with God as was apparently the case with Adam's early family.

*The sequential placement of "then" in the text may or may not designate just when it began. It could even designate a causal result of the previously mentioned events, time-irrelevant, or maybe Eve's statement of Seth's replacement of Abel. I think you are spiritualizing beyond what is warranted by Scripture.

By the way, you are getting better at writing in an understandable fashion. Thank you for being careful with that.