Was the Spirit of God Indwelling the Redeemed before Pentecost?

[prism]

A. Covenant Theology holds that the Church existed prior to the New Testament era, even back to the Old Testament period, and included all the redeemed people of God since the fall of Adam.

How would CT explain this verse?

Matthew 16:18 NKJV
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

(This question has nothing to do with Rome's false claim about Peter but zeros in on the 'future' aspect of Jesus saying)

 

[fastfredy0]

A. Covenant Theology holds that the Church existed prior to the New Testament era, even back to the Old Testament period, and included all the redeemed people of God since the fall of Adam.

• The Church refers to the body of believers in Jesus Christ, both Jews and Gentiles, who are spiritually united by faith in the New Testament era, starting at Pentecost and continuing until the rapture. The Church is distinct from Israel in dispensationalist thought, meaning it is not a continuation or replacement of Israel but a separate entity in God's plan.
• Distinction between Israel and the Church: Dispensationalists hold that God's promises and plans for Israel (the Jewish people) remain distinct from those for the Church. While Israel is seen as God's chosen people in the Old Testament with promises that will be fulfilled in the future (e.g., during the Millennium), the Church is seen as a "parenthesis" in God’s plan—a unique entity during the current dispensation of grace, also known as the "Church Age."

Source: ChatGPT

not that I am taking sides ... just pointing out there is another side that defines "the church" differently.


Also, what does "indwell" mean in the context of the thread's question? The thread's question being:

Was the Spirit of God Indwelling the Redeemed before Pentecost?​

... for example, the following two Old Testament verses indicate God is controlling men. Does that fit the definition "the Spirit of God Indwelling"?
Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it whichever way He wishes.
Proverbs 20:24 A man’s steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

God is omnipresent ... is that "indwelling"?

 

[makesends]

How would CT explain this verse?

Matthew 16:18 NKJV
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

(This question has nothing to do with Rome's false claim about Peter but zeros in on the 'future' aspect of Jesus saying)

If I may, let me answer by asking you how you explain away Rome's false claim about Peter. A similar explanation concerning the "'future' aspect" should suffice.

I can only guess you see Peter mentioned as being instrumental in God's new way of dealing with his particular people, as a group. To me, that 'new way' IS the "'future' aspect" as far as building the church, too.

 

[prism]

If I may, let me answer by asking you how you explain away Rome's false claim about Peter. A similar explanation concerning the "'future' aspect" should suffice.

I can only guess you see Peter mentioned as being instrumental in God's new way of dealing with his particular people, as a group. To me, that 'new way' IS the "'future' aspect" as far as building the church, too.

Actually I see Christ as being instrumental, not Peter, since He said "I WILL (future) build MY Church, and then we have...

Acts 20:28 NKJV
Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Your turn... How would CT explain this verse? (Mt 16:18)

 

[makesends]

• The Church refers to the body of believers in Jesus Christ, both Jews and Gentiles, who are spiritually united by faith in the New Testament era, starting at Pentecost and continuing until the rapture. The Church is distinct from Israel in dispensationalist thought, meaning it is not a continuation or replacement of Israel but a separate entity in God's plan.
• Distinction between Israel and the Church: Dispensationalists hold that God's promises and plans for Israel (the Jewish people) remain distinct from those for the Church. While Israel is seen as God's chosen people in the Old Testament with promises that will be fulfilled in the future (e.g., during the Millennium), the Church is seen as a "parenthesis" in God’s plan—a unique entity during the current dispensation of grace, also known as the "Church Age."

Source: ChatGPT

not that I am taking sides ... just pointing out there is another side that defines "the church" differently.


Also, what does "indwell" mean in the context of the thread's question? The thread's question being:

Was the Spirit of God Indwelling the Redeemed before Pentecost?​

... for example, the following two Old Testament verses indicate God is controlling men. Does that fit the definition "the Spirit of God Indwelling"?
Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it whichever way He wishes.
Proverbs 20:24 A man’s steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

God is omnipresent ... is that "indwelling"?

Well, let me start with the 'indwelling' question. What does it mean for a New Testament or modern day believer, but that God did that particular work about which we have so often spoken in the elect, born sinner? How is possibly any different for the born sinner of any era? It can't be softened nor defined by the fact of God's omnipresence, as though all people everywhere are 'indwelt' in the same way.

As for what others see, it is that with which this thread attempts to treat, in some regard, because that different use of "church" is defended by the claim that there are two groups saved differently, as though our description of those unable to submit to or to please God, were not the situation with those 'born dead' in Old Testament times.

 

[makesends]

Actually I see Christ as being instrumental, not Peter,since He said "I WILL (future) build MY Church, and then we have...

Acts 20:28 NKJV
Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Your turn... How would CT explain this verse? (Mt 16:18)

"The church" mentioned will now (at that time) be shepherded by these overseers. That's how I see it, anyway. I can't really speak for CT, but to me that seems rather obvious. God is dealing with his people —the church— differently at this stage from how he generally did in the OT.

To me, it seems this is a side issue. I'm not sure how it can be used to answer the question of the OP: Were the Old Testament saints not indwelt by the Spirit? How not, if any born in sin is unable to have salvific faith apart from the indwelling of the Spirit of God? But that is why I asked the question specifically of those convinced of Reformed or Calvinist teachings on the matter of regeneration.

 

[prism]

Were the Old Testament saints not indwelt by the Spirit? How not, if any born in sin is unable to have salvific faith apart from the indwelling of the Spirit of God?

I guess I'm part of the @anyothers crowd. lol. I would think that 'some' are indwelt by the Spirit in comparison to the promise 'on all flesh'.
Abraham (most likely an idol worshipper) would be a good example of one born in sin. Was he indwelt by the Spirit?
Probably...

WCF 7.3
Man, by his fall, having made himself incapable of life by that covenant, the Lord was pleased to make a second, commonly called the covenant of grace; wherein He freely offers unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ; requiring of them faith in Him, that they may be saved, and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life His Holy Spirit, to make them willing, and able to believe.

 

[makesends]

I guess I'm part of the @anyothers crowd. lol. I would think that 'some' are indwelt by the Spirit in comparison to the promise 'on all flesh'.
Abraham (most likely an idol worshipper) would be a good example of one born in sin. Was he indwelt by the Spirit?
Probably...

WCF 7.3
Man, by his fall, having made himself incapable of life by that covenant, the Lord was pleased to make a second, commonly called the covenant of grace; wherein He freely offers unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ; requiring of them faith in Him, that they may be saved, and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life His Holy Spirit, to make them willing, and able to believe.

Thanks. Interesting. And thanks for the quote from the Westminster. I'll have to look to see how they describe the first covenant there. I haven't studied the WCF very much.

 

[makesends]

prism said:
I guess I'm part of the @anyothers crowd. lol. I would think that 'some' are indwelt by the Spirit in comparison to the promise 'on all flesh'.
Abraham (most likely an idol worshipper) would be a good example of one born in sin. Was he indwelt by the Spirit?
Probably...

WCF 7.3
Man, by his fall, having made himself incapable of life by that covenant, the Lord was pleased to make a second, commonly called the covenant of grace; wherein He freely offers unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ; requiring of them faith in Him, that they may be saved, and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life His Holy Spirit, to make them willing, and able to believe.

Thanks. Interesting. And thanks for the quote from the Westminster. I'll have to look to see how they describe the first covenant there. I haven't studied the WCF very much.

I have looked at the WCF on this matter, and it appears to me that they, as do I, consider the first covenant to have been with innocent Adam and Eve, and that the second covenant (that of grace) to be with all of man after the fall, to include the Old Testament times, and not to have begun with Pentecost.

They also mention [salvific] faith, by the work of the Spirit of God upon the elect, which is [or is part of] regeneration, but it seems they stop short of claiming regeneration of the saints via the indwelling of the Spirit. I don't think I can go with that, but it is true that the Spirit of God can do as it will.

—I don't know; it seems to me too facile, and too much like the synergism of those bent on self-determinism. It sounds like the Arminian "Prevenient Grace".

 

[fastfredy0]

It can't be softened nor defined by the fact of God's omnipresence, as though all people everywhere are 'indwelt' in the same way.

Agreed that all people not indwelt in the same way. But I would say all people are indwelt meaning "in him we live and breathe and have our being". But this leaves us with a fuzzy idea of what "indwelt" means. I think I heard "indwelt" means "guiding us for us benefit" where us is the 'elect'. Anyways, this all leaves me with the question as to what INDWELLS means as it pertains to the thread.

How is possibly any different for the born sinner of any era?

Personally, I think the indwelling for old and new testament saints is generally similar. Something is different come Pentecost thought I'm not sure what. Maybe the difference was the added ability to speak in tongues for a segment of the elect or the spread of the gospel to the Gentiles which was a new phenomena though that didn't occur till a few years after Pentecost.
Beats me ....

 

[prism]

—I don't know; it seems to me too facile, and too much like the synergism of those bent on self-determinism. It sounds like the Arminian "Prevenient Grace

Which are you referring to as being her 'too facile'?

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
—I don't know; it seems to me too facile, and too much like the synergism of those bent on self-determinism. It sounds like the Arminian "Prevenient Grace

Which are you referring to as being her 'too facile'?

The notion that salvific faith is possible without regeneration or the indwelling of the Spirit of God, merely (or so it seems to me) to accommodate the NT statements (or our use of them) concerning the coming of the Spirit of God at Pentecost, and to accommodate the fact of a seeming lack of statements concerning the indwelling work of the Spirit of God in the time of the Old Testament saints.

 

[ChristB4us]

Was the Spirit of God Indwelling the Redeemed before Pentecost?​

I would say no. Did the Holy Spirit indwell some "select" people before Pentecost yes.

@makesends

They cannot be considered "redeemed" until Pentecost for when His disciples were born again of the Spirit.

Judas Iscariot was given power in Matthew 10:1-4 and thus the temporary indwelling Holy Ghost as the Holy Spirit did speak through Judas Iscariot as well in Matthew 10:19-20, and yet he was prophesied to become lost.

John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus told Nicodemus when that born again of the Spirit moment was to occur John 3:3-9 and how it was to occur and that was after His ascension in John 3:13 which is after His crucifixion, John 3:14 for whenever anyone believes in Jesus Christ John 3:15-16

Jesus told His disciples that when He has ascended to the Father John 14:1-3 , He will send the forever indwelling Holy Ghost John 14:16-17 when He was no longer present with them as the Father will take part in sending the Comforter as well in John 14:25-26.

So that event in Matthew 10th chapter involving Judas Iscariot and John 20:22 which Thomas was not there when Jesus gave the Holy Ghost to the other disciples, that was only a temporary indwelling of the Holy Ghost since He was still physically present with them.

When Jesus made this prophesy which is a promise;

Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

He was talking about the coming salvation for all those who come to & believe in Jesus Christ.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

So once saved, we are a new creature in Christ always filled with the Holy Spirit as a testimony from God that we are saved per Matthew 9:17.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Born again of the Spirit moment was to occur after His ascension which was after His crucifixion for whenever anyone believes in Jesus Christ.

 

[CrowCross]

@makesends

They cannot be considered "redeemed" until Pentecost for when His disciples were born again of the Spirit.

Judas Iscariot was given power in Matthew 10:1-4 and thus the temporary indwelling Holy Ghost as the Holy Spirit did speak through Judas Iscariot as well in Matthew 10:19-20, and yet he was prophesied to become lost.

John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus told Nicodemus when that born again of the Spirit moment was to occur John 3:3-9 and how it was to occur and that was after His ascension in John 3:13 which is after His crucifixion, John 3:14 for whenever anyone believes in Jesus Christ John 3:15-16

Jesus told His disciples that when He has ascended to the Father John 14:1-3 , He will send the forever indwelling Holy Ghost John 14:16-17 when He was no longer present with them as the Father will take part in sending the Comforter as well in John 14:25-26.

So that event in Matthew 10th chapter involving Judas Iscariot and John 20:22 which Thomas was not there when Jesus gave the Holy Ghost to the other disciples, that was only a temporary indwelling of the Holy Ghost since He was still physically present with them.

When Jesus made this prophesy which is a promise;

Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

He was talking about the coming salvation for all those who come to & believe in Jesus Christ.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

So once saved, we are a new creature in Christ always filled with the Holy Spirit as a testimony from God that we are saved per Matthew 9:17.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Born again of the Spirit moment was to occur after His ascension which was after His crucifixion for whenever anyone believes in Jesus Christ.

I believe some of the OT prophets and priest had the Holy Spirit in them. Now all believers do.

 

[Mr GLee]

I believe some of the OT prophets and priest had the Holy Spirit in them. Now all believers do.

I would offer.

If any man has not the born-again Spirit of Christ, then neither do they belong

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Abel the first born again member of the bride the church. First Martyr

It was a then after born again doctrine was formed that mankind began to call out .

Not after Pentecost the time of reformation. Ceremonial sign as a shadow to the whole word. turning to substance .

 

[ChristB4us]

I believe some of the OT prophets and priest had the Holy Spirit in them. Now all believers do.

I believe the OT saints did too but it was not the permanent indwelling holy Ghost as they have not been redeemed yet by Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Since His resurrection, and after His ascension, Paradise which was located beneath the earth across that gulf from hell, is now located in the Third Heaven according to Paul in 2 Corinthians 12;1-4 & the apostle John for the Book of revelation.

Course, I believe the O.T. saints have not been resurrected yet until that pre great tribulation rapture event, but they are in that Paradise in the Third Heaven now awaiting for that resurrection to be of teh firstfruits.

 

[Mr GLee]

I believe the OT saints did too but it was not the permanent indwelling holy Ghost as they have not been redeemed yet by Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

I would offer. Keep in mind it was a three day and night promised "demonstration" of the lamb . . who was slain from the foundation. The 6 days the father as Christ did work

It would appear the father of lies making it all about dying flesh and blood. The temporal what the eyes see. No faith of Christ's labor of love working in them

It was after mankind, beginning with Abel a second born, He was used as a apostle to represent mankind must be born again.

Then born-again mankind could call out to a invisible Father. the Spiritual seed Christ passed down by the second born seed until the birth of Jesus the Son of man. The shadow became sight

Genisis 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

Having no desire to seek after an invisible God.... beforehand

Dying mankind must be born again. Not a New Testament principle one established in Genesis. It would seem why he lovingly commanded Nicodemus to wonder not.

Satan the king of lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after as if true prophecy. false prophecy. The only voice of Lucifer, the Legion working overtime today . Gender dysphoria Trans sex. Mankind wondering which bathroom. . . go to the extreme racist left.

Time to sound the Trump and build gospel walls

Proverbs 25:28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

 

[CrowCross]

I believe the OT saints did too but it was not the permanent indwelling holy Ghost as they have not been redeemed yet by Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Since His resurrection, and after His ascension, Paradise which was located beneath the earth across that gulf from hell, is now located in the Third Heaven according to Paul in 2 Corinthians 12;1-4 & the apostle John for the Book of revelation.

Course, I believe the O.T. saints have not been resurrected yet until that pre great tribulation rapture event, but they are in that Paradise in the Third Heaven now awaiting for that resurrection to be of teh firstfruits.

I agree. The OT saints went to the bosom of Abraham.

 

[ChristB4us]

Having no desire to seek after an invisible God.... beforehand

I would offer that God is not so invisible since man was made after His image and after His likeness Genesis 1:27 and so the meaning of invisible needs to be discerned with the Lord's help in scripture, because the Father has a celestial body as well as the Son does too when the Word of God made the request for man to be made after our image and after our likeness in Genesis 1:26.

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Now we know Jesus Christ is that King of kings, and so He is not invisible, but at the moment, not presently seen.

That is how we should apply any reference of invisible to God the Father in Heaven as well.

Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

So for Jesus Christ to be the image of the invisible God the Father, that means God the Father is not presently seen since He has an image for us to see Jesus Christ as that image of the Father.

Then we have the assumption read into John 4:24 as if God is just a spirit, having no physical let alone a celestial form that man was made from His image.

John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Jesus was not testifying that God the Father is just a Spirit, but testifying to His Omnipresence now that Jesus Christ is there for why there will be no need to go to Jerusalem nor to the mountains in order to come to God the Father by, but they can come to Him from anywhere by coming to His Son in honoring the Son in worship in order to honor God the Father by.

As it is, Jesus said in that day when He takes us to the Father in Heaven, we will not need Jesus to ask the Father for us but we can go to the Father directly and ask Him for He loves us also.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. 24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. 25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. 28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
So we moved on from going to a place to get closer to God when we are as close to God as we can ever get as our physical bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit per 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 as bought with a price and so how can we come to God the Father form anywhere, but by His Son in honoring & glorifying Him in worship & thereby the Father as well as led by the Spirit of God in us to do.

 

[Mr GLee]

I would offer that God is not so invisible since man was made after His image and after His likeness Genesis 1:27 and so the meaning of invisible needs to be discerned with the Lord's help in scripture, because the Father has a celestial body as well as the Son does too when the Word of God made the request for man to be made after our image and after our likeness in Genesis 1:26.

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Now we know Jesus Christ is that King of kings, and so He is not invisible, but at the moment, not presently seen.

Hi thanks

I would offer.

The voice of our invisible God who is Light and not that he can only create it temporal . His glory as Light departed from the corrupted creation day 3 .

Seeing false pride in the heart of Lucifer who was to protect Christ's glory but rather usurped it as the "god" of this word Lucifer the legion of lying spirits .

By the lust of the flesh and lust of the eye the two building blocks of false pride . Satan took on the flesh of the most beautiful creature in the garden. In efect saying look at my beauty . . .why believe in a eternal God not seen.

Christ cut of the legs .lucifer the lying spirt could not walk with Christ in agreement of our invisible God

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

The temporal dying historical must be mixed with the unseen eternal in order to receive spiritual value ((invisible)

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Satan would have image and likeness to mean one in same. Taking away the spiritual unseen value

Making gods in the likeness of man rather than image as representation and not look in the mirror likeness

Act 14:11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.

Its like someone says you look like (Likeness your Father) but you do not act (image)

When the unbeliever saw the apostles lay hands to represent prayer on the person that never walked. Not seeing the spiritual unseen value. the god of this world. seduced them to believe the lie

Act 14:12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people

The "us" in Genesis 1:26 the dynamic dual.

The father displaying his power working in His son who had no power . The Son of man Jesus arose with power of the Father .

Two gods . One the eternal Faithful Creator Christ and the other the temporal dying creation. Born again sons of God outwardly diplatying the power of the Father.

John 10:34-36 King James Version34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;