Validity of Apostolic Succession, and RCC as the One Holy Catholic Church

[makesends]

2 Thess 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and HOLD FAST TO THE TRADITIONS that you were taught, EITHER by an ORAL statement or by a letter of ours.

2 Thess 3:6 We instruct you, brothers, in the name of [our] Lord Jesus Christ, to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the TRADITION they RECEIVED from us.

2 Tim 2:2 And what you HEARD from me through many witnesses ENTRUST to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.
[APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION…from Paul to Timothy to the next generation…]

1 Cor 11:2 I praise you because you remember me in everything and HOLD FAST TO THE TRADITIONS, just as I handed them on to you.

1 Thess 2:13 And for this reason we too give thanks to God unceasingly, that, in receiving the word of God from HEARING us, you received not a human word but, as it truly is, the word of God, which is now at work in you who believe

3 Jn 13-14 I have much to write to you, but I DO NOT wish to WRITE with pen and ink. Instead, I hope to see you soon, when we can TALK face to face.

2 Jn 12 Although I have much to write to you, I do not intend to use paper and ink. Instead, I hope to visit you and to SPEAK face to face so that our joy may be complete.

Disingenuous, again, Arch. What I said, was:

you forgot the oral traditions​

Show me where the Scriptures designate oral traditions since Peter and Matthias et al as inspired by God. Plenary verbal inspiration.​

MOD HAT: Continued use of such misquoting will be met with consequences. See the CCAM Rules. Read and follow Rule 1, and I will quote part of 2.2 here. "When quoting or summarizing another member’s position, do so honestly, in context, and preferably with a citation to ensure that their views are represented accurately and fairly."

 

[Arial]

Let's say there was the selling of indulgences by several priests in Germany, how does that change the fact that Christ established His Church 1,500 years earlier and protected that Church from a false gospel?

He is also the authority that determines what is false doctrine and it is anything that is in opposition to his word. Soal scriptura.

 

[Arial]

but it didn't stay within the church... wasn't Luther given 'protected passage' to Rome but he refused?

The Catholic church refused to reform. That is why it didn't stay within the catholic denomination.

 

[Carbon]

You have not proven that the early Church wasn't Catholic.

Catholic in which way?

We are not a denomination. The 'called out' were the early Church Christians with Peter as the leader... the universal/catholic church

That still would not make Peter a pope.

 

[prism]

but Church Authority on the other hand...

Where does Church Tradition teach that?

 

[makesends]

What is the constitution without an authority to interpret it?

Constitution/Judicial Branch

Is the authority to interpret the constitution not also governed by the constitution? But where in Scripture is it written that the RCC is not necessarily to be governed by Scripture?

 

[makesends]

Is the authority to interpret the constitution not also governed by the constitution? But where in Scripture is it written that the RCC is not necessarily to be governed by Scripture?

That by itself should be enough for anyone to know that the RCC alone is not The One Church.

 

[makesends]

High Priests have a lower priesthood...

In the Old Testament, there were THREE levels of Priests:
High Priest [Aaron]
Levitical Priesthood [Ex 30:30; Lev 5:5-6; Numbers 15:27-28]
General priesthood of the rest of the believers. [Ex 19:6]

In the New Testament, there are also three levels of Priests:
Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25),
The Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15; John 20:23; 2 Cor 2:10; 2 Cor 5:18)
The General Priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).

Neither of those translate to the current RCC

 

[Arch Stanton]

The Catholic church refused to reform.

Luther was invited to Rome under protection. He did not go.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Neither of those translate to the current RCC

I just gave you the verses that show the opposite.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Catholic in which way?

The universal Church with Peter as the leader.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Neither of those translate to the current RCC

I just gave you the verses that show the opposite.

I'm sorry —where? And how? Post #number, please.

And on that post, did you explain how they show the opposite?

 

[Arch Stanton]

makesends said:
Neither of those translate to the current RCC

I'm sorry —where? And how? Post #number, please.

And on that post, did you explain how they show the opposite?

the verses are in the ( ) in posts 39, 48 [the one you replied to]

 

[Arial]

Luther was invited to Rome under protection. He did not go.

• In 1518 Pope Leo X did issue a summons to Martin Luther to appear in Rome to answer charges of heresy — essentially requiring him to defend or recant his teachings before the papal authorities. (Encyclopedia Britannica)

Although there was an original summons to Rome that included assurances like safe conduct, it wasn’t an offer of sanctuary in the modern diplomatic sense. Instead:

• The papacy essentially demanded Luther’s submission to its doctrinal authority and conditioned continued good standing on recantation. (Encyclopedia Britannica)
• The “protection” was limited to a safe journey and appearance before papal officials, not protection of his person independent of ecclesiastical judgment. (Cambridge University Press)
• This offer was never fulfilled, because Luther, backed by local secular protection (especially Elector Frederick), refused to go to Rome and was tried or addressed through German forums instead. (Wikipedia)

 

[Arch Stanton]

• In 1518 Pope Leo X did issue a summons to Martin Luther to appear in Rome to answer charges of heresy — essentially requiring him to defend or recant his teachings before the papal authorities. (Encyclopedia Britannica)

Although there was an original summons to Rome that included assurances like safe conduct, it wasn’t an offer of sanctuary in the modern diplomatic sense. Instead:

• The papacy essentially demanded Luther’s submission to its doctrinal authority and conditioned continued good standing on recantation. (Encyclopedia Britannica)
• The “protection” was limited to a safe journey and appearance before papal officials, not protection of his person independent of ecclesiastical judgment. (Cambridge University Press)
• This offer was never fulfilled, because Luther, backed by local secular protection (especially Elector Frederick), refused to go to Rome and was tried or addressed through German forums instead. (Wikipedia)

I think I read a deeper dive from one of Warren Carroll's books - The History of Christendom Series

 

[Arial]

The Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15; John 20:23; 2 Cor 2:10; 2 Cor 5:18)

James 5:14–15 (ESV)

Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

No mention of a priest of any sort.
John 20:23 (ESV)

If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.

No mention of a priest of any sort.
2 Corinthians 2:10 (ESV)

Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ,

No mention of a priest of any sort.
2 Corinthians 5:18 (ESV)

All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;

No mention of a priest of any sort. Interesting that you are using sola scriptura which the Catholic denomination hates with a passion, to substantiate your assertions. So, the heart of that hatred is the other issue. The Catholic claim that the Pope and Catholic councils are the only God given authority to interpret Scripture. That way they can always interpret it in their favor. Can you not see how self-serving that is and how contemptuous of all people who God created in his image and likeness that is? I know you actually fully believe the things the Catholic denomination tells you to submit to---and that is painfully sad. They have made you into the shape they intentionally molded you. Compliant, obedient to them, faithfully following blindly (blind faith).

The General Priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).

In that case, why can't the little people serve in the duties of a Catholic priest?

 

[Arial]

Let's say there was the selling of indulgences by several priests in Germany, how does that change the fact that Christ established His Church 1,500 years earlier and protected that Church from a false gospel?

When you prove that the Catholic denomination was appointed by Jesus as His church; and when you stop posting things that deflect from the issues being raised, we can discuss. The practice of indulgences was not the single issue addressed in the Reformation and it is not the single issue being addressed in this thread.

 

[Arial]

alive in Christ... God of the living... great cloud of witnesses

Address the issue being presented. Don't digress the thread into idiocy.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Neither of those translate to the current RCC

Arch Stanton said:
I just gave you the verses that show the opposite.

makesends said:
I'm sorry —where? And how? Post #number, please.

And on that post, did you explain how they show the opposite?

the verses are in the ( ) in posts 39, 48 [the one you replied to]

Thank you. I'll take a look.
Ok, here they are; this is 39, and in 48 I copied it:

High Priests have a lower priesthood...

In the Old Testament, there were THREE levels of Priests:
High Priest [Aaron]
Levitical Priesthood [Ex 30:30; Lev 5:5-6; Numbers 15:27-28]
General priesthood of the rest of the believers. [Ex 19:6]

In the New Testament, there are also three levels of Priests:
Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25),
The Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15; John 20:23; 2 Cor 2:10; 2 Cor 5:18)
The General Priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).

You describe there a list of 3 actual levels of priesthood in the Old Testament, and you give a description of what you call three levels of what are abstract concepts/ designations of priests. While I may agree to the above descriptions in a general essence (not in your particular applications: I won't get into your cherry-picked out-of-context use of the references with you here—it is irrelevant), I don't, as I said, see how they translate to the RCC. In other words, while one might say they give good reason for arranging 3 levels of priesthood in the RCC (or any Christian sect), my question is, how does that lend credence to the role of the RCC as the one and only true church?

 

[Arial]

Christ when He established the only universal/catholic church 2,000 years ago.

Who said that? Jesus or a Pope?

Christ when He said 'He who hears you, hears Me', keys to the kingdom; whose sins you forgive...; whatever you bind...; the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail; the Advocate will be with you always, the spirit of truth; make disciples of all nations...teaching them to observe all that I commanded you...I am with you always, until the end of the age.

That is an interpretation by a bunch of fallible men who call themselves priests and apostles, who desire power and status, but care nothing for the truth. Who place themselves even higher than God by saying not even God can give understanding to his word. If you can prove otherwise, by all means do so. But do it without the pope telling you what to say and what scriptures t present.