Universalism

[Rockerduck]

You are evidently in the wrong church then.

Not my church and not for me. Liberal churches are being infiltrated by the world and universalism.

 

[Eleanor]

WE do have the facts though. Everybody knows what Hitler did was wrong. And therefore there is a punishment for it. That is what justice means. He murdered millions of people. How do you punish that?

Hitler will be punished for the only thing anyone is punished for; i.e., unbelief in Jesus Christ, which would have freed him from the punishment due for his sin.

So do you believe Jesus in Mt 25:46, or not?

Therein is the determiner of fruit of the Holy Spirit; i.e., faith.

 

[Eleanor]

Not my church and not for me. Liberal churches are being infiltrated by the world and universalism.

The great apostasy, or part of it.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Hitler will be punished for the only thing anyone is punished for; i.e., unbelief in Jesus Christ, which would have freed him from the punishment due for his sin.

So do you believe Jesus in Mt 25:46, or not?

Therein is the determiner of fruit of the Holy Spirit; i.e., faith.

Evidently, you are unable to use human logic for justice and the condemnation of Hitler universally, wherein he should receive a punishment.

That is not God's justice.

The problem is, you don't know what God's justice is, and you are certain you do know compared to someone telling you that human justice condemns murderers.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Those are your words.

You are confused. I have no previous request from you for such a book.

Scripture is my basis, so you will have to search the internet for yourself on that one.

Indeed!

Are you?

Again, you are confused. It is denial of Jesus in Mt 25:46 which demonstrates one does not have the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

I ought not to have to point it out, but you confused hell with eternal hell. I believe I made that clear. If I didn't, it's hard to understand why you didn't see it.

It suits you to make claims you cannot back up then. I would cite sources to back up viewpoints in theological discussions, and the Bible is theology too.

I assumed you were American because a lot of the females that are Christian from America have very dogmatic attitudes and arguments that aren't really considered seriously in the rest of the world at large, though there could be exceptions.

 

[Rockerduck]

Evidently, you are unable to use human logic for justice and the condemnation of Hitler universally, wherein he should receive a punishment.

That is not God's justice.

The problem is, you don't know what God's justice is, and you are certain you do know compared to someone telling you that human justice condemns murderers.

Read the 10 commandments. God spells it out.

 

[Eleanor]

Evidently, you are unable to use human logic for justice and the condemnation of Hitler universally, wherein he should receive a punishment.

Biblical revelation, not human logic, is my source of understanding the spiritual.

That is not God's justice.

The problem is, you don't know what God's justice is, and you are certain you do know compared to someone telling you that human justice condemns murderers.

Your ad hominem remarks bring to mind yours following;

The problem is not with logic, it is with your ad hominem remarks, which do not demonstrate that you have the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Nor did you answer my question regarding your being in the USA.

 

[Eleanor]

I ought not to have to point it out, but you confused hell with eternal hell. I believe I made that clear. If I didn't, it's hard to understand why you didn't see it.

A distinction without a difference. . .hell is eternal for those who go there, according to Jesus (Mt 25:46).

It suits you to make claims you cannot back up then. I would cite sources to back up viewpoints in theological discussions, and the Bible is theology too.

I make only one claim, and that is the one Jesus made: eternal punishment (hell) is the destiny of the damned (Mt 25:46).
It's not complicated.

I assumed you were American because a lot of the females that are Christian from America have very dogmatic attitudes and arguments that aren't really considered seriously in the rest of the world at large,

Too rich to detract from with any response.

 

[Carbon]

Who believes that? Can you give an example?

I don't think anybody around this website believes that God is just Love and nothing else. It's what you do with Hell where most of the problems lie.

Ha, you might be surprised,

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

A distinction without a difference. . .hell is eternal for those who go there, according to Jesus (Mt 25:46).

I make only one claim, and that is the one Jesus made: eternal punishment (hell) is the destiny of the damned (Mt 25:46).
It's not complicated.

Too rich to detract from with any response.

You come across as quite dogmatic in your responses. I think a little less dogmatism and a little bit more openness would be better, a bit more humble in general.

Eternal punishment is one of the phrases Jesus used. he used others too, which don't suggest the same exact meaning. For example, "eternal destruction". If something is destroyed, it ceases to exist. Or take his saying about the body perishing in hell. We have to assume that he is talking about a soul in the afterlife in hell, which begs the question of what it means to say the body dies in hell, since the body is physical and part of this space and time earth and universe dimension. So I would have to disagree with you that it is a distinction without a difference, not to mention you didn't seem to acknowledge the distinction to begin with.

 

[Eleanor]

You come across as quite dogmatic in your responses.

Precisely, because I am stating NT dogma.

I think a little less dogmatism and a little bit more openness would be better, a bit more humble in general.

What would you like me to be more open about?

Eternal punishment is one of the phrases Jesus used. he used others too, which don't suggest the same exact meaning. For example, "eternal destruction". If something is destroyed, it ceases to exist.

Not so. . .destruction (apollumi) is to kill, waste, ruin or loss of well-being, as seen in its use throughout Scripture. It does not mean annihilation or actual loss of being,

Or take his saying about the body perishing in hell. We have to assume that he is talking about a soul in the afterlife in hell, which begs the question of what it means to say the body dies in hell,

Eternal death is spiritual, separation from God, it is not physical death.
And you do not know the body does not go to hell, when Jesus states that it does.

since the body is physical and part of this space and time earth and universe dimension. So I would have to disagree with you that it is a distinction without a difference, not to mention you didn't seem to acknowledge the distinction to begin with.

That's why I say it has no difference. To talk of hell is to talk of the hell that exists, which is eternal for those who are there.

And "Do you believe Jesus in Mt 25:46, or not?" is still on the table.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Precisely, because I am stating NT dogma.

What would you like me to be more open about?

Not so. . .destruction (apollumi) is to kill, waste, ruin or loss of well-being, as seen in its use throughout Scripture. It does not mean annihilation or actual loss of being,

Eternal death is spiritual, separation from God, it is not physical death.
And you do not know the body does not go to hell, when Jesus states that it does.

That's why I say it has no difference. To talk of hell is to talk of the hell that exists, which is eternal for those who are there.

And "Do you believe Jesus in Mt 25:46, or not?" is still on the table.

I cannot respond to you sentence by sentence as the format here doesn't allow me.

The word "kill" in English means to put an end to some life.

I do know that the body does not go to hell because when a corpse is buried, you can dig it up out of the ground hundreds of years later.

 

[fastfredy0]

I cannot respond to you sentence by sentence as the format here doesn't allow me.

Yes you can. Pick out a section of text you wish to reply to and hit REPLY. Then type your response. Put the cursor on the next empty line at the bottom. Then,
Pick out a section of text you wish to reply to and hit REPLY. Then type your response.

...continue as often as you wish.

to illustrate:

The word "kill" in English means to put an end to some life.

end of illustration.

I think this is what you are referring to ..

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Yes you can. Pick out a section of text you wish to reply to and hit REPLY. Then type your response. Put the cursor on the next empty line at the bottom. Then,
Pick out a section of text you wish to reply to and hit REPLY. Then type your response.

...continue as often as you wish.

to illustrate:

end of illustration.

I think this is what you are referring to ..

Who taught people how to do this?

 

[fastfredy0]

Who taught people how to do this?

Who taught people to do what? To resist God?

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Who taught people to do what? To resist God?

Where did you learn how to separate the text like that? I'm thinking of computer instructions you learnt at school type of scenario. When? How old were you?

 

[Eleanor]

I cannot respond to you sentence by sentence as the format here doesn't allow me.

The word "kill" in English means to put an end to some life.

We were talking about "destroy."

Ending a life is not an end of existence; i.e., annihilation of the immortal spirit.

I do know that the body does not go to hell because when a corpse is buried, you can dig it up out of the ground hundreds of years later.

So you don't believe in the resurrection?

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

We were talking about "destroy."

Ending a life is not end of existence; i.e., annihilation of the immortal spirit.

So you don't believe in the resurrection?

What? I didn't say that.

Your post is hidden publically and manifest to me. But we will not go into that!

To destroy means to kill and to put an end to existence of a life form. I said that already.

I don't believe the soul is annihilated. So I don't believe it can be destroyed. Which is a completely different concept to Jesus saying a physical body can die in hell, an afterlife dimension of souls. Nor is it pertinent to my previous comments about different Bible passages and sayings by Jesus speak about destruction instead of punishment. Those two words in English are not the same two words in Greek either.

 

[Eleanor]

What? I didn't say that.

Your post is hidden publically and manifest to me. But we will not go into that!

You are not the only one who sees my posts.
Nor are you in control of the operation of this board.

To destroy means to kill and to put an end to existenceof a life form. I said that already.

Previously addressed.

No it does not always mean that.
To destroy does not mean only to kill. I showed that already. In summary, it is loss of well being.

I don't believe the soul is annihilated. So I don't believe it can be destroyed. Which is a completely different concept to Jesus saying a physical body can die in hell, an afterlife dimension of souls. Nor is it pertinent to my previous comments about different Bible passages and sayings by Jesus speak about destruction instead of punishment. Those two words in English are not the same two words in Greek either.

They are not the same words, but for my money, destruction is definitely punishment, however, neither word means an end to existence.

 

[Carbon]

Ok the poll has ended. Looks like we will leave the subject “Universalism” open for discussions.

However, if it takes a bad turn, and becomes nasty. We will shut it down.