Union with Christ and the Ordo Salutis

[ReverendRV]

No. He did not.

Cool...

 

[Carbon]

Cool...

Goodwin agreed with Calvin on soteriology.

 

[ReverendRV]

Goodwin agreed with Calvin on soteriology.

I can see how a Christian could say we're United to Christ during Regeneration, because the Holy Spirit is also known as the Spirit of Christ; but I don't think we're ever United with the Holy Ghost...

The question would arise; Are we Sealed by the Spirit before or after we first Believed? If there IS a Union, it depends on the Seal...

 

[Carbon]

I can see how a Christian could say we're United to Christ during Regeneration, because the Holy Spirit is also known as the Spirit of Christ; but I don't think we're ever United with the Holy Ghost...

The question would arise; Are we Sealed by the Spirit before or after we first Believed? If there IS a Union, it depends on the Seal...

Through regeneration. Since there is no reversal.

 

[ReverendRV]

Through regeneration. Since there is no reversal.

Regeneration is the Seal of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Carbon]

Regeneration is the Seal of the Holy Spirit?

I would think so. Or part anyway. There is no plan B.

I'm open to correction. Good question.

What are your thoughts?

 

[ReverendRV]

I would think so. Or part anyway. There is no plan B.

I'm open to correction. Good question.

What are your thoughts?

Ephesians 1:13 NKJV; In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

I recommend we keep things Fundamental. Calvinists can believe this. Regeneration is being Born Again, not being United; that's through Faith Alone. Regeneration is New Life, which lives to Believe...

 

[Binyawmene]

Ephesians 1:13 NKJV; In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

I recommend we keep things Fundamental. Calvinists can believe this. Regeneration is being Born Again, not being United; that's through Faith Alone. Regeneration is New Life, which lives to Believe...

I disagree. The verse you cited is in the past tense "believed" and kinda misleading. The Ephesians didn't receive the Spirit-baptism when they immediately believed.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Acts 19:1-7 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all.​

For myself personally, I believe there are two different functional works of the Holy Spirit which is based on "subsequence and separability." The Spirit-baptism is a separate unique second experience from the salvation experience. This second experience is not concurrent with conversion, but rather subsequent to conversion and logically separate from conversion. The work of the Spirit in regard to salvation (like regeneration "Spirit gives birth to spirit" or sanctification "sanctifying work of the Spirit" etc.) and there is a whole separate distinctive work of the Spirit in regard to service in the role of the Church (like speaking in tongues and the doorway for all the other spiritual gift).

Are you suggesting that you don't have the Holy Spirit in regeneration, therefore, the union of Christ never coincide in the same instance of time in "Regeneration" (Ephesians 2:5, Colossians 2:13)?

 

[ReverendRV]

Are you suggesting that you don't have the Holy Spirit in regeneration, therefore, the union of Christ never coincide in the same instance of time in "Regeneration" (Ephesians 2:5, Colossians 2:13)?

Everything happens at the same time in the Temporal Order of things; in the twinkling of the eye...

I suggest the New Birth doesn't Cause Union...

 

[Binyawmene]

Everything happens at the same time in the Temporal Order of things; in the twinkling of the eye...

I suggest the New Birth doesn't Cause Union...

Do you agree that the Spirit baptism always happens after conversion, it can be either immediate or an unspecified timing when receiving the Spirit baptism, as long it occurs after conversion? (Acts 8:12-17; 10:44-46; 11:14-16; 15:7-9).

How does Spirit give birth to spirit if there was no union?

 

[ReverendRV]

Do you agree that the Spirit baptism always happens after conversion, it can be either immediate or an unspecified timing when receiving the Spirit baptism, as long it occurs after conversion? (Acts 8:12-17; 10:44-46; 11:14-16; 15:7-9).

How does Spirit give birth to spirit if there was no union?

By Breathing on them...

 

[makesends]

Here is another point, by Thomas Goodwin.

Christ takes hold of us before we believe, and works a thousand and a thousand operations in our souls to which our faith concurs nothing .... Christ dwells in us and works in us, when we act not and know not our union, nor that it is he that works. Before the new believer is aware, our Lord unites us to Himself ("takes hold of us") and works in us. The Spirit then regenerates the sinner, who in turn exercises faith towards Christ and completes the union. From that union flow all other spiritual blessings.



Thoughts?

I don't know if that is just old English or what, but the "then" may mean, "thus", where he says, "The Spirit then regenerates the sinner". Regardless, though, it feels like a construction, and not quite scriptural. A little here, a little there.

That Christ (and the Spirit both) work in us even before regeneration, is true, but only in regeneration is faith made, and not before in any of what sounds to me that he is saying, is what Arminians mean by prevenient grace. Goodwin seems to think monergism until regeneration, but no salvation until repentance (synergism).

 

[Binyawmene]

I can see how a Christian could say we're United to Christ during Regeneration, because the Holy Spirit is also known as the Spirit of Christ; but I don't think we're ever United with the Holy Ghost...

There is not three distinctive unions. The Union of Christ is by the application of the Holy Spirit.

John described the "Union With Christ as an abiding presence in the application of the Holy Spirit (John 14:20-23, John 15:4-12, John 17:21-23, 1 John 3:24) and fellowship with the Father and the Son (John 14:23, 1 John 1:3, 1 John 2:22-25, 1 John 5:20).

Paul describes the “union” to indicated by the preposition “in” (Paul’s language usage, like: “in Christ,” “in Him,” “with Christ,” and “through Christ” etc.) which carries a wide range of implications in a Soteriological sense. The phrase "in Christ" is also used in the sense that you are a CHRISTIAN (Romans 16:7, Ephesians 1:13). Paul also uses another type of language like "created in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15, Ephesians 2:10), even our identification is symbolically represented in water baptism, and uses a certain phrase "baptized into Christ" or "clothed yourselves with Christ" (Galatians 3:27) in reference to our Union With Christ, like "Crucified With Christ," "Buried With Christ," "Raised With Christ," and "Alive With Christ" (Galatians 2:20, Romans 6:3-5, Colossians 2:11-13). And we are encouraged to "set your hearts on things above" (Colossians 3:1-3) and "Seated With Him" (Ephesians 2:6).

The "Union With Christ" in the Soteriological pattern would go something like this:
⦁ Election (Ephesians 1:3-4)
⦁ Regeneration (Ephesians 2:5, Colossians 2:13)
⦁ Faith (Galatians 2:20, Ephesians 3:16-17)
⦁ Justification (2 Corinthians 5:21, Philippians 3:8-9)
⦁ Sanctification (1 Corinthians 1:30)
⦁ Adoption (Galatians 3:26)
⦁ Eternal Security (Romans 8:38-39)
⦁ Glorification (Colossians 3:4, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

 

[ReverendRV]

There is not three distinctive unions. The Union of Christ is by the application of the Holy Spirit.

John described the "Union With Christ as an abiding presence in the application of the Holy Spirit (John 14:20-23, John 15:4-12, John 17:21-23, 1 John 3:24) and fellowship with the Father and the Son (John 14:23, 1 John 1:3, 1 John 2:22-25, 1 John 5:20).

Paul describes the “union” to indicated by the preposition “in” (Paul’s language usage, like: “in Christ,” “in Him,” “with Christ,” and “through Christ” etc.) which carries a wide range of implications in a Soteriological sense. The phrase "in Christ" is also used in the sense that you are a CHRISTIAN (Romans 16:7, Ephesians 1:13). Paul also uses another type of language like "created in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15, Ephesians 2:10), even our identification is symbolically represented in water baptism, and uses a certain phrase "baptized into Christ" or "clothed yourselves with Christ" (Galatians 3:27) in reference to our Union With Christ, like "Crucified With Christ," "Buried With Christ," "Raised With Christ," and "Alive With Christ" (Galatians 2:20, Romans 6:3-5, Colossians 2:11-13). And we are encouraged to "set your hearts on things above" (Colossians 3:1-3) and "Seated With Him" (Ephesians 2:6).

The "Union With Christ" in the Soteriological pattern would go something like this:
⦁ Election (Ephesians 1:3-4)
⦁ Regeneration (Ephesians 2:5, Colossians 2:13)
⦁ Faith (Galatians 2:20, Ephesians 3:16-17)
⦁ Justification (2 Corinthians 5:21, Philippians 3:8-9)
⦁ Sanctification (1 Corinthians 1:30)
⦁ Adoption (Galatians 3:26)
⦁ Eternal Security (Romans 8:38-39)
⦁ Glorification (Colossians 3:4, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

Election is Union with Christ? That's Hyper...

 

[Binyawmene]

Election is Union with Christ? That's Hyper...

Regardless. Its Scriptural.

Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love​

​

2 Timothy 1:9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life-not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,​

 

[Synergy]

Regardless. Its Scriptural.

Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love​

​

2 Timothy 1:9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life-not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,​

I agree. It's only if you're "in Him" that you are elected. And to be "in Him" you must believe "in Him". Election is granted only "in Christ", nowhere else.

 

[Carbon]

Are we made clean first, or are we joined to Christ first?

According to scripture, I believe the answer is obvious.
We are joined to Christ first.