Union with Christ and the Ordo Salutis

[Binyawmene]

Thanks I would offer. .

As new creatures we receive the end of salvation from the beginning .

In other words, you believe this one action is progressive on its own (Romans 15:16, 1 Peter 1:2,2 Thessalonians 2:13) without any interference of actions from the Holy Spirit within our newness of life. Besides, God will complete us on that day of Christ return is another action that will be demonstrated (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, 1 Thessalonians 3:13).

Anyways, "renewed," in biblical terms, is spiritual and refers to the act of being made new or refreshed in various aspects of life. It involves a progressive transformational change that restores and revitalizes individuals from of one’s old ways of life to the new way of life. Or, in other words, to “walk in newness of life” means that one has made a complete break from his former sinful lifestyle and living in a spiritual eschatological dimension or a spiritual resurrection from the old life to the new life.

Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Ephesians 4:22-24 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Colossians 3:9-10 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!​

 

[Mr GLee]

In other words, you believe this one action is progressive on its own (Romans 15:16, 1 Peter 1:2,2 Thessalonians 2:13) without any interference of actions from the Holy Spirit within our newness of life. Besides, God will complete us on that day of Christ return is another action that will be demonstrated (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, 1 Thessalonians 3:13).

Hi thanks again

.I believe if God has begun the good work of salvation in us he will finish it . . . .slow learners like myself included .

He promises to work in us with us giving the strength of the newness of life, he must increase, believer's of little faith must increase .In that way we can do nothing without him that could please. Him he is the golden storeroom of faith or power. .He give us the golden measure or caled "hidden manna" our daily bread . . in Revelation 2:17

 

[Binyawmene]

.I believe if God has begun the good work of salvation in us he will finish it . . . .slow learners like myself included .

Why does God need to finish it, if it was only one action of good work in us?

He promises to work in us with us giving the strength of the newness of life, he must increase, believer's of little faith must increase .

And that that was one action of good work?

 

[fastfredy0]

In other words:
Are we made clean first, or are we joined to Christ first?

Hmmm ....

Definition: IN CHRIST is defined as "The results of this union with Christ are the imputation of our sins to Him and of His righteousness to us." Henry Thiessen

So, IMO, being "made clean" and being "joined to Christ" are one and the same thing and thus no logical or chronological order.

 

[ReverendRV]

Hmmm ....

Definition: IN CHRIST is defined as "The results of this union with Christ are the imputation of our sins to Him and of His righteousness to us." Henry Thiessen

So, IMO, being "made clean" and being "joined to Christ" are one and the same thing and thus no logical or chronological order.

In a way, just giving up the Debate about the Logical Order sounds good; but that ain't happening...

 

[fastfredy0]

In a way, just giving up the Debate about the Logical Order sounds good; but that ain't happening...

Well, debate depends upon definition of the terms of the debate. Since I believe that being "cleaned up" is one and the same as being "IN CHRIST"; there is to logical order to one and the same thing. Now, you can define the terms differently and then there may be reason to theorize an order.

 

[Carbon]

In a way, just giving up the Debate about the Logical Order sounds good; but that ain't happening...

It's not so much of a debate as it is thought-provoking, for me anyway. I wouldn't tell him, or others, they are wrong. There have been some very good and interesting points made. Here is one by Herman Witsius,

By a true and real union, (but which is only passive on our part,) [the elect] are united to Christ when his Spirit first takes possession of them, and infuses into them a principle of new life: the beginning of which life can be from nothing else but from union with the Spirit of Christ.... Further, since faith is an act flowing from the principle of spiritual life, it is plain, that in a sound sense, it may be said, an elect person is truly and really united to Christ before actual faith.

 

[ReverendRV]

It's not so much of a debate as it is thought-provoking, for me anyway. I wouldn't tell him, or others, they are wrong. There have been some very good and interesting points made. Here is one by Herman Witsius,

By a true and real union, (but which is only passive on our part,) [the elect] are united to Christ when his Spirit first takes possession of them, and infuses into them a principle of new life: the beginning of which life can be from nothing else but from union with the Spirit of Christ.... Further, since faith is an act flowing from the principle of spiritual life, it is plain, that in a sound sense, it may be said, an elect person is truly and really united to Christ before actual faith.

I would disagree with that, and say we're United with Christ through Faith Alone...

 

[Carbon]

I would disagree with that, and say we're United with Christ through Faith Alone...

I think we are saved (regenerated) by grace alone, and since justification is part of salvation, it is through faith. So we are saved by grace alone through faith alone. So, I can see the possibility of being saved (regenerated) before faith. And the regenerated will have faith and all the blessings that come from our union with Christ. Once we believe (faith), we are justified.
Does this at least make sense?

 

[Carbon]

I think we are saved (regenerated) by grace alone, and since justification is part of salvation, it is through faith. So we are saved by grace alone through faith alone. So, I can see the possibility of being saved (regenerated) before faith. And the regenerated will have faith and all the blessings that come from our union with Christ. Once we believe (faith), we are justified.
Does this at least make sense?

In other words. Romans 10, The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

 

[ReverendRV]

I think we are saved (regenerated) by grace alone, and since justification is part of salvation, it is through faith. So we are saved by grace alone through faith alone. So, I can see the possibility of being saved (regenerated) before faith. And the regenerated will have faith and all the blessings that come from our union with Christ. Once we believe (faith), we are justified.
Does this at least make sense?

It sure does...

I can't help but to look at it as the Good Soil though; without the Sower's Seed, it's not Saved; the Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation...

 

[Carbon]

It sure does...

I can't help but to look at it as the Good Soil though; without the Sower's Seed, it's not Saved; the Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation...

It is refreshing to discuss these things with fellow believers. These finer, deeper points. It is grace

 

[fastfredy0]

it may be said, an elect person is truly and really united to Christ before actual faith.

Hmm, the people I've read say faith precedes justification and if one defines justification the result of the imputation of Christ's righteousness and if one defines being IN CHRIST as the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us (and our sins imputed to Christ) then verses like Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we are justified (acquitted, declared righteous, and given a right standing with God) through faith suggest faith precedes justification suggest faith is the cause of justification.

Faith is the alone instrument of justification https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/tilting-scarecrows/

... or maybe you mean we were always united to Christ before even our birth. I
... if God if immutable then were we not always IN HIM ??? (Of course, one might define IN HIM to be dependent on time and God is outside of time ....)
..end of my rantings *giggles*

 

[ReverendRV]

It is refreshing to discuss these things with fellow believers. These finer, deeper points. It is grace

Yeah it is...

The Gospel Seed Sown without the Good Soil's Regeneration, is choked out...

As Calvinists, we need to love Sola Fide as much as we love Sola Gratia. We should love Sola Fide more than Provisionism loves it...

 

[Carbon]

Here is another point, by Thomas Goodwin.

Christ takes hold of us before we believe, and works a thousand and a thousand operations in our souls to which our faith concurs nothing .... Christ dwells in us and works in us, when we act not and know not our union, nor that it is he that works. Before the new believer is aware, our Lord unites us to Himself ("takes hold of us") and works in us. The Spirit then regenerates the sinner, who in turn exercises faith towards Christ and completes the union. From that union flow all other spiritual blessings.



Thoughts?

 

[Carbon]

Hmm, the people I've read say faith precedes justification

Of course. We are justified by faith.

and if one defines justification the result of the imputation of Christ's righteousness and if one defines being IN CHRIST as the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us (and our sins imputed to Christ) then verses like Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we are justified (acquitted, declared righteous, and given a right standing with God) through faith suggest faith precedes justification suggest faith is the cause of justification.

Faith is the alone instrument of justification https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/tilting-scarecrows/

... or maybe you mean we were always united to Christ before even our birth. I
... if God if immutable then were we not always IN HIM ??? (Of course, one might define IN HIM to be dependent on time and God is outside of time ....)
..end of my rantings *giggles*

Sinners are not justified because they were regenerated, but because Christ has paid the penalty of their sins, and has applied all His benefits to them. Faith is included. Once we express this faith, we are justified.

 

[ReverendRV]

Here is another point, by Thomas Goodwin.

Christ takes hold of us before we believe, and works a thousand and a thousand operations in our souls to which our faith concurs nothing .... Christ dwells in us and works in us, when we act not and know not our union, nor that it is he that works. Before the new believer is aware, our Lord unites us to Himself ("takes hold of us") and works in us. The Spirit then regenerates the sinner, who in turn exercises faith towards Christ and completes the union. From that union flow all other spiritual blessings.



Thoughts?

I think the only way we can say Christ works in us before we Believe, is through the Spirit of Christ; AKA the Holy Spirit...

 

[Carbon]

I think the only way we can say Christ works in us before we Believe, is through the Spirit of Christ; AKA the Holy Spirit...

Of course.

 

[ReverendRV]

Of course.

Did Thomas Goodwin teach that Christ believes for us? I'm looking it up...

 

[Carbon]

Did Thomas Goodwin teach that Christ believes for us? I'm looking it up...

No. He did not.