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Transferred Wrath

Lol, no, I'm just wondering whether there's anything there that disagrees with my speculations about the nature of sin, anything that would preclude him "being made sin" as an English fact, and not a Greek figure of speech. I wonder about passages that speak of sin as if it had actual existence or even, by some commentaries, personhood. (eg, "Sin crouches at the door. It desires to have you, but you must master it.")

After all, if something you say precludes my speculations, obviously you must be wrong! :p
Well, firstly, I believe that "being made sin" is a metaphor (in other words, he was treated as if he were made a mass of sin, not that he actually was).

Secondly, sin is a corruption of something good (e.g. a lie is a corruption of the truth; sentimentality is a corruption of love, etc.). As an analogy, you could say that a fresh apple is "good", but an apple that has gone off (that's "gone bad", in American) is "sinful". To put this another way: sin is real, but only with reference to the good thing of which it is a corruption.

Thirdly, speaking of sin having personhood is a figure of speech.
 
Well, firstly, I believe that "being made sin" is a metaphor (in other words, he was treated as if he were made a mass of sin, not that he actually was).

Secondly, sin is a corruption of something good (e.g. a lie is a corruption of the truth; sentimentality is a corruption of love, etc.). As an analogy, you could say that a fresh apple is "good", but an apple that has gone off (that's "gone bad", in American) is "sinful". To put this another way: sin is real, but only with reference to the good thing of which it is a corruption.

Thirdly, speaking of sin having personhood is a figure of speech.
You're probably right, and that's pretty much what I think, but my mind wants to see more about this 'play on words'!
 
Oh .. and limited atonement works within this theoretical quantum field because God knows the beginnings from the ends as He is the Alpha and the Omega. (You have to know both inside a quantum field).

Just in case anyone was concerned...

Back to the topic.
Yep. Whatever it really is, he made it.
 
Wouldn't you think it's because that's what bit them?

Jesus' role as sin-bearer is a type of negative energy sink—He doesn’t merely deflect wrath or neutralize it abstractly; He absorbs it entirely.

Isaiah 53:5: “He was pierced for our transgressions... the punishment that brought us peace was on him.”

2 Corinthians 5:21: “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us...”

This is pure negative transfer. Christ takes in the fullness of God's wrath without reciprocating it. He doesn't emit retaliation. He becomes the black hole of sin’s consequence—absorbing judgment, death, guilt. The result? Peace and justification radiate outward

In essence:
Absorption of divine wrath (−E)→CrossRelease of divine love (+E)
Absorption of divine wrath (−E)Cross
Release of divine love (+E)

It’s like saying:

Jesus is the “divine capacitor” in the system—He stores and absorbs the negative charge of sin and wrath, but doesn’t release it in judgment. Instead, He releases the positive voltage of grace to His people.

Quantum physics opens a parallel to this theological paradox.

Vacuum Energy and Quantum Fields

In quantum field theory, vacuum energy is not empty. It’s full of potential, even when it appears still or null. Likewise, negative energy in theoretical constructs (like Hawking radiation or black hole thermodynamics) often absorbs matter or energy, not to destroy but to transform the field.


Jesus as the Negative Quantum Field

Think of Jesus as the divine singularity—He collapses the wave function of both wrath and grace, absorbing all chaotic potential (sin, entropy, spiritual disorder) into Himself.

In His incarnation, He enters the field (the universe),

In His death, He takes in the sin-wave of the Bride.

In His resurrection, He collapses the paradox—life comes from death, order from chaos, righteousness from judgment.

Here, negative energy isn’t evil—it’s the transformative medium. Just as quantum particles can exist in superposition (both/and), Jesus is a superposition.

The Quantum Paradox:

One might explain:

"Christ is the zero-point energy of redemption. In Him, opposing fields—justice and mercy—don’t annihilate; they superimpose. What seems like contradiction in classical space (law vs grace) becomes entangled unity at the Cross. Grace emerges not in spite of judgment, but through it."

Jesus is the divine field into which negative spiritual energy (sin, wrath, death) is drawn.

He holds that energy, absorbing it without release, until it is transmuted into grace, peace, healing and righteousness.

The Cross is the theological modulus and the quantum event horizon—a moment where reality is bent by God’s will to unite what seems forever opposed.

Final Theological-Quantum Equation:
(WrathLaw+MercyLove)mod  Cross=RighteousnessGift
(WrathLaw+MercyLove)modCross=RighteousnessGift

And in quantum terms:
min⁡(Judgment,Grace)=Grace
min(Judgment,Grace)=Grace

Since the only thing being absorbed with Moses serpent pole were the effects of the serpent bites, I assume that's why the pole reflected the snake - ie, what the people were being healed from.

On the cross man is being healed from the effects of God and man.

I'll shut up... Lol.... We can all blame @fastfredy0 for this post. He claimed 1+1=2... Lol. Started the ball rolling.
Neat!

The Fiery Serpents represent Sin, and Christ became Sin on our behalf; so you are right on...

Talk about Substitution! Penalty and Wrath...
 
Why does your mind want to see more?
Lol, I self-diagnose as somewhere on the autism spectrum. I peg on patterns and word play and the humor implied in omnipotence and grace.
 
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Neat!

The Fiery Serpents represent Sin, and Christ became Sin on our behalf; so you are right on...

Talk about Substitution! Penalty and Wrath...

It is the most awesome thing in the history of the universe, all that Christ is and all that He has done!

It does put a light on pure martyrdom - joining Christ in His death - which all of our forebears in the faith did die - because our death due to quantum entanglement with Christ through the Holy Spirit means we are actually joining in His death when we die, which is a creative event rather than a bad thing..

You can see where such joy in death came from, just as much as our joy in the Life they passed down to us is, and more .

We truly don't appreciate all that Christ did enough . I don't anyway, but I guess I just don't know how to show what I feel sometimes.

I do have to thank the OP though, this has been one of the best threads, spending all these days just considering the cross with a group has been awesome.

you know I was baptized on a Ressurection Sunday? (10 years ago now) The death and resurrection of Christ Jesus is the most beautiful event in all of history.
 
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Lol, I self-diagnose as somewhere on the autistic spectrum. I peg on patterns and word play and the humor implied in omnipotence and grace.
There are certainly many patterns and plays on words, in the Bible, so I'm sure that'll stand you in good stead.
 
If I may just make a quick observation (I promise to read everything you have made the effort to provide). I am seeking proof of the concept of "transferred wrath" as the opposite of "The soul who sins shall die.
And yet, the sinning Israelite did not receive the death penalty for his sin.
Rather his sin was laid on the perfect animal who died as a sacrifice in his place; i.e., substitutionary atonement.
The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." - Ezekiel 18:20 [ESV]. Romans 2:5 actually supports Ezekiel 18:20 rather than the transfer of wrath since those storing up wrath "for yourself" are NOT THE FORGIVEN, but those that persist in rebellion ... the "wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself".
Eze 18:20 is not about dying as the penalty for sin, it is about not inheriting sin.
We do not inherit Adam's sin, it is imputed to those of Adam (Ro 5:17, 18-19, 12-16), and is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness to those of Christ (Ro 1:17, 3:22, 4:5, 13, 9:30, 10:6, Gal 3:16, Php 3:9, Heb 1:7).
3:16, Php 3:9, Heb 1:7)
I agree. There are many other verses that speak of "a Judgement Day" as a future event ... even in the NT from Jesus lips.
OK, so THIS is where your reference to Acts 2 fits in, as proof that Peter claimed Judgement Day had come.
Act 2:14-21 [ESV]
14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17 "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy. 19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; 20 the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day. 21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'

Joel seems to predict the coming of the Holy Spirit in the Last Days (Acts 2:16-18) ... which seems to have NOTHING to do with WRATH (transferred or not).

For Ellicott's commentary, OK, I will accept that Acts 2:20 may be a reference to the day Jesus died and the sky became dark [symbolism is not my strong suit]. However, YOU stated that "Saint Peter teaches us it was Christ’s Judgment Day." I do no see that taught in Peter's words in Acts 2. However, I do see yet another promise of FORGIVENESS with no mention of a transfer of Wrath ... Acts 2:21 states "And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."


I agree. The issue is WORLD. Judgement in scripture falls on the GUILTY. As noted above, Ezekiel 18 says GUILT is not transferred. However, Ezekiel 18 and Acts 2:21 do speak of guilt being forgiven. I accept the FORGIVENESS of Sin (thus negating the need for WRATH), I do not see the evidence of the transfer of WRATH. The above is first and foremost a 'logical argument' supporting a theological position. As such, it makes the theology coherent (all the parts fit together). However, only SCRIPTURE can make the theory TRUTH.


100% agree to this point.


Umm ... does Scripture actually say this? Jesus was GOD, so "earning" heaven is almost a silly concept. Does God deserve to be God?
I object. "Pay the penalty" is begging the question. I am asking for scripture that actually STATES that Jesus PAID THE PENALTY for every believer.
It is two verses after "God is sovereign," right before the verse "God is Trinity."

He was the atoning sacrifice for our sins (Ro 3:25, 1 Jn 2:2).
The sacrifices were penalty for sin (Lev 5:6, 7, 15, 6:6, 26:41, 43).
 
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