Transferred Wrath

[makesends]

So

He who does not believe is condemned

The wage of sin is death

Is that what your saying

Can't speak for him, but I say that, yes. Most definitely!

Is there something you mean to imply here?

 

[Carbon]

So

He who does not believe is condemned

The wage of sin is death

Is that what your saying

What's your thoughts on PSA?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Can't speak for him, but I say that, yes. Most definitely!

Is there something you mean to imply here?

Just asking if he agrees

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

What's your thoughts on PSA?

I assume you mean penal substitution?

On the day of atonement the high priest slaughtered the lamb and put the lamb on the mercy seat. The lamb too the penalty the children if Israel owed God. This is a symbol of Christ who as the lamb of God took away the sin of the world

My God my God why have you forsaken me. I will look and find it. I have a well written writing on this.

 

[Carbon]

I assume you mean penal substitution?

On the day of atonement the high priest slaughtered the lamb and put the lamb on the mercy seat. The lamb too the penalty the children if Israel owed God. This is a symbol of Christ who as the lamb of God took away the sin of the world

My God my God why have you forsaken me. I will look and find it. I have a well written writing on this.

So you accept it as truth?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

So you accept it as truth?

What I just posted yes. Is psa a specific doctrine I would need to read it

 

[Carbon]

What I just posted yes. Is psa a specific doctrine I would need to read it

 

[John Bauer]

So, he who does not believe is condemned.

The wage of sin is death.

Is that what your saying

To be fair, I didn't say that. Scripture did. At least it said something like that. The tense is different and there is a word missing.

Scripture says, "The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God" (John 3:18).

Is PSA a specific doctrine? I would need to read it.

You're in luck, then—I just posted the doctrine.

 

[John Bauer]

The wrath of God is a scriptural phrase (Rom. 1:18) that describes (a) the settled opposition of God's nature against evil, (b) his holy displeasure against sinners, and (c) the punishment he justly metes out to them on account of their sins.
​

Alan Cairns, ed., Dictionary of Theological Terms, expanded 3rd ed. (Emerald House Group, 2002), s.v. "Wrath of God."

 

[fastfredy0]

Gives @atpollard commendation for his efforts despite being greatly out numbered on the subject of PSA ... you da man!

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

To be fair, I didn't say that. Scripture did. At least it said something like that. The tense is different and there is a word missing.

Scripture says, "The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God" (John 3:18).

I see no difference

Those who do not believe are condemned because they do not believe in e

Those who believe have ceased to be or are no longer condemned

You're in luck, then—I just posted the doctrine.

Let me look

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

​

The wrath of God is a scriptural phrase (Rom. 1:18) that describes (a) the settled opposition of God's nature against evil, (b) his holy displeasure against sinners, and (c) the punishment he justly metes out to them on account of their sins.​

​

Alan Cairns, ed., Dictionary of Theological Terms, expanded 3rd ed. (Emerald House Group, 2002), s.v. "Wrath of God."

The wage of sin is death. So that would be the punishment t get n sin correct

 

[Carbon]

Gives @atpollard commendation for his efforts despite being greatly out numbered on the subject of PSA ... you da man!

Yeah, I suppose so. Especially since his #1 proponent wouldn't help him.

 

[ReverendRV]

Jesus is a Divine Person with a human nature- this is the foundation of the H.U. He is the 2nd Person of the Trinity. It is God the Son who lived, suffered and died for our sins. No man can give a ransom to God for another person let alone the entire world.

Psalm 49:7- No man can possibly redeem his brother or pay his ransom to God.

Amen...

But I think the trick is, the Logos of God Suppressing the Expression of his Deity to live on the level of an Unfallen Adam. This would let his Human Nature lead, while his Divine Nature was asleep in the bottom of the boat of his life...

 

[ReverendRV]

I was thinking about this; sometimes we let Doctrine override the Bible. At the end of the day, we're Sola Scripturists...

People will say, we're free to chose Christ; the Bible says No one seeks God. People say, God only Sacrificed himself for the Elect; the Bible says he is the Propitiation for the World. People will say, God cannot pour Wrath upon himself without fracturing; the Bible says the Chastisement of our Sins is upon him...

Each of these are Doctrines that bend Scripture, when Scripture is supposed to be the Arbiter of Spiritual disputes...

 

[John Bauer]

I see no difference.

Fair enough.

But that doesn't change the grammatical, biblical, and theological difference between "is" (present simple) and "has been" (present perfect).

To say that someone "is" condemned doesn't specify when that judgment took effect. Unlike your statement, scripture uses the perfect passive indicative to affirm that the condemnation of unbelievers is a decisive, past judgment that has been settled this whole time (ὁ δὲ μὴ πιστεύων ἤδη κέκριται)—the unbeliever "has been condemned already" (and God's wrath remains on him, v. 36). The insertion of ἤδη is not incidental, it is emphatic. It marks the verdict not as future or contingent, but as past and fixed. The unbeliever is already condemned, and that judgment continues to stand.

The verb κέκριται is in the perfect passive indicative, establishing that judgment is

• past (already rendered),
  
  ​
• passive (inflicted by another—namely, God),
  
  ​
• indicative (a real, factual state of affairs).

The order of the Greek, here—ἤδη κέκριται—is deliberate. Placing ἤδη before the verb gives it emphatic force. One might assume that the final judgment comes at death or the eschaton, but Jesus declares it is already in effect. Unbelief is not the precursor to judgment—it is the proof of it. Condemnation is not a warning of what might come but a pronouncement of what has already come.

The wage of sin is death. So that would be the punishment t get n sin correct

Since that is a quote from Romans 6:23—"the wages of sin is death" (NKJV)—the answer is obviously, "Correct."

 

[fastfredy0]

Yeah, I suppose so. Especially since his #1 proponent wouldn't help him.

I assume you are inferring that I am a proponent of PSA. In post #65 I stated

When I studied the theories of atonement the author I read basically said all the theories had issues so, as with eschatology, I decided to not take a strong opinion on any theory.

... so, I don't take sides on the various atonement theories. If I was forced to pick one I suppose I'd go for PSA.
... also, I had troubles following everyone's points. A lot of the discussion was about God's wrath and my definition of God's wrath didn't seem to match what was being discussed.

Now, if you are referring to me in reference to being a strong proponent of @atpollard ... that is true. He is articulate, knowledgeable and intelligent.

I think most of the discussion was an honest effort by the participants but communications broke down IMO.

 

[Carbon]

I assume you are inferring that I am a proponent of PSA. In post #65 I stated

No, I was talking about him and someone who agrees with him, and both are opponents of pSA.

 

[Carbon]

I assume you are inferring that I am a proponent of PSA. In post #65 I stated

... so, I don't take sides on the various atonement theories. If I was forced to pick one I suppose I'd go for PSA.
... also, I had troubles following everyone's points. A lot of the discussion was about God's wrath and my definition of God's wrath didn't seem to match what was being discussed.

Now, if you are referring to me in reference to being a strong proponent of @atpollard ... that is true. He is articulate, knowledgeable and intelligent.

I think most of the discussion was an honest effort by the participants but communications broke down IMO.

Fair enough.

 

[John Bauer]

The overwhelming majority of instances of anger in the Old Testament speak of God's anger both against his chosen people and against pagan nations. God's anger differs, however, from most examples of human anger. Expressions of God's anger exhibit no loss of control. Rather, as an act of God's will, his anger results in deliberate judgments against sin—actions appropriate to the situation and in keeping with his own character as holy and just.

… The New Testament speaks of God's anger in both present and future terms. As in the Old Testament, God's anger is represented as his actions or responses to human sinfulness. Several texts explain God's anger in the present. John affirmed that God's wrath now rests on those who fail to believe in Jesus (John 3:36). Paul asserted that God presently reveals his anger against those who suppress the truth of the gospel (Rom 1:18; 1 Thess 2:16). He taught that governmental authorities serve as agents of God's anger to punish criminals (Rom 13:4). God's anger comes on the disobedient, though it is not easy to say whether the author intended this to refer to present or future expressions of God's anger (Eph 5:6).

As to future anger, John the Baptist affirmed that there was "the wrath to come" (Matt 3:7; Luke 3:7). Jesus predicted a time of God's judgment on Israel (Luke 21:23). Paul spoke of a coming day of God's anger when his righteous judgment will be revealed against unrepentant sinners (Rom 2:5, 8; cf. 9:22; Col 3:6; 1 Thess 1:10). Left to their own attempts to keep God's law, people will face God's anger (Rom 4:15). Only through justification on the basis of Jesus' atonement can people find salvation and escape from God's coming wrath (Rom 5:9; 1 Thess 5:9). Thus, Christians were formerly "children of wrath"—that is, their only prospect was to encounter God's angry judgment against their sin—but this is no longer their state (Eph 2:3). The Apocalypse speaks several times of God's anger. Those who experience the great day of the wrath of the Lamb would rather be dead, so awesome is its destructive force (Rev 6:16-17). The plagues of the Apocalypse display God's anger against his enemies (Rev 14:10, 19; 15:1, 7; 16:1, 19; 19:15). Wrath describes the day of judgment when the wicked are destroyed and the saints rewarded (Rev 11:8).
​

Leland Ryken, James C. Wilhoit, and Tremper Longman III, eds., Dictionary of Biblical Imagery (InterVarsity Press, 1998), s.v. "Wrath of God." Emphasis mine.