Transferred Wrath

[Arial]

Where does it say that?
Just underline the words that indicate he died the death we deserve in our place.
Where does GOD say that is why Jesus died?

• 1 Cor 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
• 1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

What do you think that means? Serious question. I would like to know. Keep in mind if you decide to say those passages do not indicate Jesus died that we might live (substitution); (We live because he was raised to life and we will be too.)Keep in mind that I am not saying that those verses are saying God's wrath against us is transferred to Jesus. Something I said in my first post and probably every post since.

Remember, the point of PSA is that all other explanations for WHY (Christus Victor, Ransom theory, etc.) are incorrect and “Jesus died the death we deserve in our place” is the ONLY correct reason why Jesus died. So the Bible darn well better teach that.

Well, it does. WHy do you think he came as one of us with a mortal body able to die. It is his death that purchased us, What is it we get instead of eternal death and wrath when we are united with Christ through faith?

Did Jesus deserve to die? No.
Did he die a natural death? No, he died the death of a criminal, a sinner. Who deserves death? The sinner.
What does Jesus give the believer? Eternal life.
How did he do this?
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness.

Was Jesus paying the penalty for his own sins? No!
Whose sins then was he paying for?
The sins of those the Father was giving him.

I am still waiting for an answer to the question is it your view that God in effect said to the Son, "If you go and die on a cross I will forgive the sins of those who believe in you."? Or was Christ actually doing something on that cross and in that grave? Perhaps something that would conquer, actually conquer, forever, sin and death, destroying the destroyer?

 

[Arial]

Wow, I would have thought by now my point was clear.

• Our PUNISHMENT was not suffered by Jesus in our place. That is NOT why Jesus did what Jesus did.
• Our PUNISHMENT was just FORGIVEN. It was not GIVEN to anybody.
• GOD did not punish JESUS (period). As you stated, EVIL MEN killed Jesus.

He was punishing our sin on Christ's body. DId Jesus go to the cross at the hands of evil men according to God's will? I think if you were to ask Jesus he would say he was punished. Have you ever read the physical details of a hanging on a cross experience? How could our sins be forgive simply by Jesus dying on a cross? God had to kill Jesus or ordain him to be killed so his wrath against sin and the sinner was satisfied? Really? That would be vengence (a pound of flesh) directed directly at Jesus, personally.

Well, this is too close to getting ugly. You have left a lot of what I have posted unanswered, and made "demands" of me. So for the sake of peace, I will back away.

 

[David1701]

Sure …

1. The FATHER does not pour out his anger on the SON … the FATHER loves the SON and the two are ONE GOD.

I'm sure we agree that God is angry with sin. I'm sure we also agree that Christ was made sin for us. So...

Please explain why the sin that Jesus became for us, is the only exception to the rule that God is angry with sin. Do you have Scripture for that? How could God be true to his nature and not be angry with the sin that Christ was made for us?

1. There is ZERO link between the anger of GOD towards our sin and Jesus being made sin for us. Our PUNISHMENT was not given to another, it was FORGIVEN. Jesus actions were all about REDEMPTION, not about JUSTICE.

God does not forgive punishment (that statement is meaningless); he forgives sins. He might not punish a sinner, but only because he has forgiven that sinner's sin.

If Jesus was not punished for our sins, then why the need for one of the cruelest, most torturous deaths ever invented? If it had just been about the shedding of blood and death, then there are far more humane ways to die.

Death by crucifixion was a punishment - the most severe punishment available in the Roman Empire. Would you claim that the Romans (and, through the agency of the Romans, the Jewish unbelievers) were punishing the Lord, but that God had not ordained it to be so? Certainly the motives were very different, but there is no question that crucifixion was a punishment.

Present SCRIPTURES that you like and I will happily discuss them with you.

I don't think we'll disagree about what the Scriptures say; but, it seems to me that you have an objection to God punishing Jesus, based on the fact that Jesus is God, and the Son of God. If that's the case, then please explain the reasoning process by which you came to that conclusion. Was it emotional, or logical?

 

[ReverendRV]

OK, so THIS is where your reference to Acts 2 fits in, as proof that Peter claimed Judgement Day had come.

Act 2:14-21 [ESV]

14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: ​

​

17 "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, ​

that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, ​

and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, ​

and your young men shall see visions, ​

and your old men shall dream dreams; ​

​

18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy. 19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; 20 the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day. 21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'​

Joel seems to predict the coming of the Holy Spirit in the Last Days (Acts 2:16-18) ... which seems to have NOTHING to do with WRATH (transferred or not).

For Ellicott's commentary, OK, I will accept that Acts 2:20 may be a reference to the day Jesus died and the sky became dark [symbolism is not my strong suit]. However, YOU stated that "Saint Peter teaches us it was Christ’s Judgment Day." I do no see that taught in Peter's words in Acts 2. However, I do see yet another promise of FORGIVENESS with no mention of a transfer of Wrath ... Acts 2:21 states "And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be savsaved.

Thanks for coming as close as you have, to agreeing with me. It's a good argument; it's really all we need to believe in PSA. Don't worry about what you still question about it, I can get back to it later. For now, my point is that if Joel's Prophecy of a future Day of Wrath is yet to come, and Christ's Crucifixion also fulfills the same Day but earlier; if one is a Day of Wrath, both are a Day of Wrath because both Days Fulfill the one Prophecy. The Wrath of the Great and Terrible Day to come, is Transferred for the sake of Believers to the Great and Terrible Day which was...

This IS enough...

 

[atpollard]

God pouring out his anger on Jesus is concerned

Everybody says this, and they say that it was BECAUSE Jesus was taking the punishment that we deserved.
I could find no scripture verse that actually teaches this.
From the lack of scripture presented by you in response to my numerous requests, it seems that “neither can you”.

A critical cornerstone theology that I cannot prove from scripture bothers me.
It appears that I am alone in my concern over the lack of scripture that actually teaches what so many merely assume that scripture teaches.

As predicted in the OP, this was not my first rodeo and this has been about ‘par’ for these discussions. Lots of accusations that it MUST be true but no verses that actually SAY what people assume must be true.

 

[atpollard]

I don 't claim God's wrath was transferred to Jesus.

Then you and I have no disagreement … but you and most PSA believers have a large difference of opinion.
Welcome to the club.

 

[Carbon]

Does the principle of penal substitution as presented in the Bible (and I believe it is) teach it as "transferred" wrath? Or is that your term? (Serious question, not a commentary.)

I have noticed throughout the years, when someone disagrees with a doctrine, what they do at times is come out with a play on words, as "transferred wrath." N. T. Wright (the heretic) is a master at this. For the record, R. C. Sproul declared his teachings heresy. Wright comes up with these concepts to help sell his false gospel, just like his one, cosmic child abuse. This is the way false teachers operate, they present stuff that sounds so close to the truth, but.....

I'm not claiming anyone on this forum is a heretic, though I do believe some have been influenced by Wright and others.

 

[Carbon]

You do know that I understand the THEOLOGY. I was taught it and fully embraced it. The issue came when I went to the BIBLE to attempt to DEFEND the theology that I had been taught. Scripture does not say what the THEOLOGY states. The THEOLOGY fills in gaps with assumptions and goes beyond what is actually written in the word.

So 'splainin' theology to me will not help. It is not what theology claims that scripture actually STATES that I have issue with. It is the parts you just ASSUME and add on top of that. PSA Reformed Theologians are following in the footsteps of the Scribes and Pharisees by piling HUMAN TRADITIONS and INTERPRETATIONS on top of the actual SCRIPTURE and treating the two as equal. THAT is what I am objecting to in the name of "Sola Scriptura".

So how much of your post is LITERALLY what Scripture states and how much is ADDITIONAL information that is not stated as you state it?
How much poison do you need to add to spoil a meal?

We can ask you the same thing.

 

[Carbon]

Post in thread 'Why is the Word of God not so Sharp on Forums?'

Apr 12, 2025

I suspect we'll disagree with you on PSA, but you get it...

EVERYONE disagrees with me on PSA.
So I just keep inviting them to show me where the Bible teaches about “transferred wrath” (the concept that I couldn’t find).

• atpollard

• 

Acts 2:16+20

We've been here before, haven't we?

 

[Carbon]

He was punishing our sin on Christ's body.

Christ himself was punished and suffered the Father's wrath in our place. Not sure how you punish sins?

As in Leviticus 16, where the priest placed his hands on the sheep's head and the sins of the people were imputed unto it, so it was with Christ and his people's sins. If this didn't happen, then the law could not have justly acted against him; he had to have had a relationship with our sins. Of course, Jesus voluntarily undertook the sins charged upon him. Other wise justice couldn't inflict any punishment on him. Of course, none of the sin was his, he remained pure and holy. So, he was without sin inherent in him, but not without sin imputed unto him.

DId Jesus go to the cross at the hands of evil men according to God's will? I think if you were to ask Jesus he would say he was punished. Have you ever read the physical details of a hanging on a cross experience? How could our sins be forgive simply by Jesus dying on a cross? God had to kill Jesus or ordain him to be killed so his wrath against sin and the sinner was satisfied? Really? That would be vengence (a pound of flesh) directed directly at Jesus, personally.

Well, this is too close to getting ugly. You have left a lot of what I have posted unanswered, and made "demands" of me. So for the sake of peace, I will back away.

This is spiritual warfare, sister.

I know we agree with this doctrine.

 

[David1701]

Everybody says this, and they say that it was BECAUSE Jesus was taking the punishment that we deserved.
I could find no scripture verse that actually teaches this.
From the lack of scripture presented by you in response to my numerous requests, it seems that “neither can you”.

A critical cornerstone theology that I cannot prove from scripture bothers me.
It appears that I am alone in my concern over the lack of scripture that actually teaches what so many merely assume that scripture teaches.

As predicted in the OP, this was not my first rodeo and this has been about ‘par’ for these discussions. Lots of accusations that it MUST be true but no verses that actually SAY what people assume must be true.

It's not only because Jesus was taking our punishment, but also because God is immutable and he is angry with sin - sin which Jesus was made for us.

Mark 15:33,34 (KJV)
33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus was not lying, when he said this - God had forsaken him (very briefly), because he had been made sin for us and God hates sin.

The Bible is not a child's reading primer; it does not spell out everything in plain statements (you know this). Sometimes you must add 2+2 and make 4, as I have done above.

 

[atpollard]

We can ask you the same thing.

Can you really ask me to provide the verses where it DOES NOT STATE that our punishment was suffered by Jesus in our place, where the Bible DOES NOT STATE that the Father poured his WRATH on the Son (the wrath that we deserved)?

How would I go about presenting the scripture that ISN'T THERE to prove it IS NOT THERE?

[I ask for verses and I get paragraphs of theology statements with ZERO scripture. It seems reasonable to point out that I KNOW what you believe and was requesting SCRIPTURE to support one small detail of that belief that I could not find scripture to support it when I believed that and attempted to defend it from Scripture.]

• Who says Jesus suffered the punishment that we should be suffering?
• Who says that GOD punished Jesus?
• What verses would need to be changed in the BIBLE if Jesus was an offering intended to defeat SIN and REDEEM a people with no Divine Punishment attached (except the "no judgement" of John 3:18)?
• Why (in SCRIPTURE) is forgiveness without punishment impossible?

 

[atpollard]

We've been here before, haven't we?

I did not respond in the other topic to avoid derailing HIS topic with this off-topic discussion that (as you can see) generates more smoke than light.

 

[Arial]

Then you and I have no disagreement … but you and most PSA believers have a large difference of opinion.
Welcome to the club.

Oh we have a big disagreement because when I say I disagree that wrath is "transferred" to Jesus, I do not mean that there is no PSA. And I seriously doubt that you know the opinion of most PSA believers.

 

[atpollard]

It's not only because Jesus was taking our punishment, but also because God is immutable and he is angry with sin - sin which Jesus was made for us.

Mark 15:33,34 (KJV)
33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus was not lying, when he said this - God had forsaken him (very briefly), because he had been made sin for us and God hates sin.

The Bible is not a child's reading primer; it does not spell out everything in plain statements (you know this). Sometimes you must add 2+2 and make 4, as I have done above.

Was Jesus claiming God had forsaken him, or in a time when there were no Chapters and Verses was Jesus pointing the PEOPLE to his final lesson ... "What you are witnessing before your eyes is THIS being fulfilled:"

Psalm 22:1-31 [ESV]

To the choirmaster: according to The Doe of the Dawn. A Psalm of David.​

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?​

Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?​

2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer,​

and by night, but I find no rest.​

​

3 Yet you are holy,​

enthroned on the praises of Israel.​

4 In you our fathers trusted;​

they trusted, and you delivered them.​

5 To you they cried and were rescued;​

in you they trusted and were not put to shame.​

​

6 But I am a worm and not a man,​

scorned by mankind and despised by the people.​

7 All who see me mock me;​

they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;​

8 “He trusts in the LORD; let him deliver him;​

let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”​

​

9 Yet you are he who took me from the womb;​

you made me trust you at my mother’s breasts.​

10 On you was I cast from my birth,​

and from my mother’s womb you have been my God.​

11 Be not far from me,​

for trouble is near,​

and there is none to help.​

​

12 Many bulls encompass me;​

strong bulls of Bashan surround me;​

13 they open wide their mouths at me,​

like a ravening and roaring lion.​

​

14 I am poured out like water,​

and all my bones are out of joint;​

my heart is like wax;​

it is melted within my breast;​

15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd,​

and my tongue sticks to my jaws;​

you lay me in the dust of death.​

​

16 For dogs encompass me;​

a company of evildoers encircles me;​

they have pierced my hands and feet—​

17 I can count all my bones—​

they stare and gloat over me;​

18 they divide my garments among them,​

and for my clothing they cast lots.​

​

19 But you, O LORD, do not be far off!​

O you my help, come quickly to my aid!​

20 Deliver my soul from the sword,​

my precious life from the power of the dog!​

21 Save me from the mouth of the lion!​

You have rescued me from the horns of the wild oxen!​

​

22 I will tell of your name to my brothers;​

in the midst of the congregation I will praise you:​

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!​

All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him,​

and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!​

24 For he has not despised or abhorred​

the affliction of the afflicted,​

and he has not hidden his face from him,​

but has heard, when he cried to him.​

​

25 From you comes my praise in the great congregation;​

my vows I will perform before those who fear him.​

26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied;​

those who seek him shall praise the LORD!​

May your hearts live forever!​

​

27 All the ends of the earth shall remember​

and turn to the LORD,​

and all the families of the nations​

shall worship before you.​

28 For kingship belongs to the LORD,​

and he rules over the nations.​

​

29 All the prosperous of the earth eat and worship;​

before him shall bow all who go down to the dust,​

even the one who could not keep himself alive.​

30 Posterity shall serve him;​

it shall be told of the Lord to the coming generation;​

31 they shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn,​

that he has done it.​

​

Note v.24 in particular ... In Isaiah 53:4 it states the "WE (the sinful people) esteemed him (Jesus) stricken, smitten by God and afflicted" ... it does not state that GOD did these things or viewed the situation that way. So here in Psalm 22, we open with what APPEARS TO BE (from the perspective of the sinful people mocking Jesus as he dies on the cross) and it ends with GOD'S PERSPECTIVE of how things really are in Psalm 22:24-31. That was Jesus final lesson as Son of Man before his resurrection.

Considering the specific details recorded by the Gospel writers, I think THEY understood the lesson.

 

[atpollard]

Oh we have a big disagreement because when I say I disagree that wrath is "transferred" to Jesus, I do not mean that there is no PSA. And I seriously doubt that you know the opinion of most PSA believers.

Do me a small favor and reread this thread [ignoring all the posts by YOU and ME] and just read what the other PSA advocates have stated and decide for yourself ... no response needed ... whether THEY "disagree that wrath is 'transferred' to Jesus" and I have misrepresented THEIR position.

I do believe that a transfer of "anger/wrath/punishment" from our deserved suffering to "Jesus suffering in our place" is inherent in most PSA arguments. If you think that I have misunderstood THEIR position as well, then I will drop this discussion and you are free to lock it.

 

[David1701]

Was Jesus claiming God had forsaken him, or in a time when there were no Chapters and Verses was Jesus pointing the PEOPLE to his final lesson ... "What you are witnessing before your eyes is THIS being fulfilled:"

Psalm 22:1-31 [ESV]

To the choirmaster: according to The Doe of the Dawn. A Psalm of David.​

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?​

Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?​

2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer,​

and by night, but I find no rest.​

​

3 Yet you are holy,​

enthroned on the praises of Israel.​

4 In you our fathers trusted;​

they trusted, and you delivered them.​

5 To you they cried and were rescued;​

in you they trusted and were not put to shame.​

​

6 But I am a worm and not a man,​

scorned by mankind and despised by the people.​

7 All who see me mock me;​

they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;​

8 “He trusts in the LORD; let him deliver him;​

let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”​

​

9 Yet you are he who took me from the womb;​

you made me trust you at my mother’s breasts.​

10 On you was I cast from my birth,​

and from my mother’s womb you have been my God.​

11 Be not far from me,​

for trouble is near,​

and there is none to help.​

​

12 Many bulls encompass me;​

strong bulls of Bashan surround me;​

13 they open wide their mouths at me,​

like a ravening and roaring lion.​

​

14 I am poured out like water,​

and all my bones are out of joint;​

my heart is like wax;​

it is melted within my breast;​

15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd,​

and my tongue sticks to my jaws;​

you lay me in the dust of death.​

​

16 For dogs encompass me;​

a company of evildoers encircles me;​

they have pierced my hands and feet—​

17 I can count all my bones—​

they stare and gloat over me;​

18 they divide my garments among them,​

and for my clothing they cast lots.​

​

19 But you, O LORD, do not be far off!​

O you my help, come quickly to my aid!​

20 Deliver my soul from the sword,​

my precious life from the power of the dog!​

21 Save me from the mouth of the lion!​

You have rescued me from the horns of the wild oxen!​

​

22 I will tell of your name to my brothers;​

in the midst of the congregation I will praise you:​

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!​

All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him,​

and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!​

24 For he has not despised or abhorred​

the affliction of the afflicted,​

and he has not hidden his face from him,​

but has heard, when he cried to him.​

​

25 From you comes my praise in the great congregation;​

my vows I will perform before those who fear him.​

26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied;​

those who seek him shall praise the LORD!​

May your hearts live forever!​

​

27 All the ends of the earth shall remember​

and turn to the LORD,​

and all the families of the nations​

shall worship before you.​

28 For kingship belongs to the LORD,​

and he rules over the nations.​

​

29 All the prosperous of the earth eat and worship;​

before him shall bow all who go down to the dust,​

even the one who could not keep himself alive.​

30 Posterity shall serve him;​

it shall be told of the Lord to the coming generation;​

31 they shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn,​

that he has done it.​

​

Note v.24 in particular ... In Isaiah 53:4 it states the "WE (the sinful people) esteemed him (Jesus) stricken, smitten by God and afflicted" ... it does not state that GOD did these things or viewed the situation that way. So here in Psalm 22, we open with what APPEARS TO BE (from the perspective of the sinful people mocking Jesus as he dies on the cross) and it ends with GOD'S PERSPECTIVE of how things really are in Psalm 22:24-31. That was Jesus final lesson as Son of Man before his resurrection.

Considering the specific details recorded by the Gospel writers, I think THEY understood the lesson.

Jesus asked why God had forsaken him; whatever else is true, it is so that God had, in fact, forsaken him, even if only for a moment.

As far as Jesus being stricken by man and not God is concerned: God uses people to carry out his purposes. God used the Babylonians, Assyrians, etc., to afflict Israel; in the same way, God used the Romans (and others) to bring about the punishment of the cross in Jesus' life. God afflicted Jesus, using them as the means. God works all things according to the counsel of his own will.

 

[Arial]

Do me a small favor and reread this thread [ignoring all the posts by YOU and ME] and just read what the other PSA advocates have stated and decide for yourself ... no response needed ... whether THEY "disagree that wrath is 'transferred' to Jesus" and I have misrepresented THEIR position.

I do believe that a transfer of "anger/wrath/punishment" from our deserved suffering to "Jesus suffering in our place" is inherent in most PSA arguments. If you think that I have misunderstood THEIR position as well, then I will drop this discussion and you are free to lock it.

I did as you asked, and only one person @Carbon even mentioned God's wrath being transferred to Jesus. And that was because of something that I had said that I need to clarify and will. If you think they did, then you are reading that into what they say. It would seem that every time someone mentions that God's wrath against our sin is laid on Jesus as our substitute, instead of us, you read it as though they said, "God transferred his wrath to Jesus."

In a debate, it is standard that one side presents their case, the other side attempts to refute what that person said, and so on. What we have here is a Premise being stated----the OP---and arguments made against it. Then the one who stated the premise for the debate, gives further evidence of his premise, but does not engage with refuting what anyone else has put forth.

So do me a small favor, since this began with something I had said in another forum, let's start over, and go point by point in refuting what I have said in various posts. Where I have had to repeat myself, it is not necessary, usually, to do what you have already done, if you have done it. ANd lets work from my premise: That PSA can exist without God's wrath, that all are destined for outside of Christ, being transferred to Jesus. The challenge to me was to demonstrate that. Which I set about doing, but what I got back was presented as though I did say God's wrath was transferred to Jesus.

In addition I brought up the implied question of whether or not that wording, "God's wrath transferred to Jesus" was the official wording of PSA in doctrinal statements. Or, alternately, is it simply the word used by opponents of PSA? That has not been answered. And I am not talking about statements made by the ancients, and randomly pulled from context, such as Luther. They spoke differently than we do today.

All that aside, but not unimportant, the reason I suggested you start this OP and my participation in it, is to demonstrate that PSA is biblical and that does not require a transference of God's wrath to Jesus. I believe I have done that and you have not acknowledged, or really debated what I have said so we have gotten no farther than when we first began.

It is an excellent topic to debate and it would be a detriment if it was just to lie dead in the water. So I hope you take up my offer. You have not done this with what anyone has said, so in all fairness to the other posters who have posted in the thread, it would be good if you would do the same with them.

Thank you.

 

[Carbon]

Jesus asked why God had forsaken him; whatever else is true, it is so that God had, in fact, forsaken him, even if only for a moment.

As far as Jesus being stricken by man and not God is concerned: God uses people to carry out his purposes. God used the Babylonians, Assyrians, etc., to afflict Israel; in the same way, God used the Romans (and others) to bring about the punishment of the cross in Jesus' life. God afflicted Jesus, using them as the means. God works all things according to the counsel of his own will.

Amen!

 

[Arial]

Christ himself was punished and suffered the Father's wrath in our place. Not sure how you punish sins?

As @ReverendRV pointed out God's wrath as eternal judgment is reserved for the last say---became return of Christ. There will be people facitn that wrath. If that wrath is poured out on Jesus on the cross, there would be no one facing that wrath. It is not wrath that is being poured out on Christ on the cross, it is judgement of sin and sins for his people (those he is giving to Christ and for whom Christ died). The penalty for sin is death. Our sins were laid on him, he died the death of a criminal, which he wasn't and we are, and he went to the grave. This is what was poured out on him, the ransom he paid for us. It was our sins meeting God's justice against sin.

What @atpollard is leaving out of the disucssin, other than to claim that it has nothing to do with the atonement, is one complete attribute of God. His attriubute of being Just. In which case----where then is justification?