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Transferred Wrath

Actually, that makes it sound like He was the unlucky one who caught it. It very well could have been someone else.
When I talk about Sin as a Hot Potato, I mean it as Christ catching the Hot Potato when we pass it to him; but he latches onto it and keeps it...

Reprobates don't toss the Hot Potato to Jesus; they won't play with him...
 
When I talk about Sin as a Hot Potato, I mean it as Christ catching the Hot Potato when we pass it to him; but he latches onto it and keeps it...

Reprobates don't toss the Hot Potato to Jesus; they won't play with him...
I got ya. I was just being funny.
 
The funny thing is, there is a 3erd Corinthians. We just never found it, but that's the way God wanted it, I'm sure.
I thought I'd heard something like that. I always liked when Trump called it Two Corinthians instead of Second Corinthians.
 
When I talk about Sin as a Hot Potato, I mean it as Christ catching the Hot Potato when we pass it to him; but he latches onto it and keeps it...
Ah, the "hot potato" doctrine that Calvin mentioned several times ?
 
I got ya. I was just being funny.
I like to think all my Analogies are Sound, even when not fully explained...

I remember being a child, and being big enough to unhook the chains off at the top of the Swing Set. I took both down. My mother came out and said if they weren't put back up, we were getting spanked. I was able to put mine up, but my little brother couldn't. He got my spanking, even though I took them both down...

It was totally unfair. Our sovereign, our Mother, did it the way she did it. It's a poor example of Penal Substitution; my brother wasn't trying to save me, etc. He was just a substitute for my punishment; without atoning for my sin...

But as I said, dictionaries, doctrines and examples never alter God's Revelation that Jesus took our Stripes...

Like my brother took mine that days...
 
I remember being a child, and being big enough to unhook the chains off at the top of the Swing Set. I took both down. My mother came out and said if they weren't put back up, we were getting spanked. I was able to put mine up, but my little brother couldn't. He got my spanking, even though I took them both down...

It was totally unfair. Our sovereign, our Mother, did it the way she did it. It's a poor example of Penal Substitution; my brother wasn't trying to save me, etc. He was just a substitute for my punishment; without atoning for my sin...
Oh gee, you're created yet another theory of atonement!! Or a potential parable for the New New Testament.
 
Mod Hat

@David1701 most of us have been here long enough to know that @fastfredy0 is every bit as saved as you are. If the things that he is trying to say come out differently from what you believe, fine, but try to get at his point, which, if I remember right, was made from a few posts, not just that one. I didn't like what he said either, but I'm not going to conclude that he is not saved. You should have said that his words logically work out to Jesus not being the substitute for believers. Your own words logically work out to Freddy not being saved.

Your assessment logically makes even YOU depend on works, because you, there, are implying that it is what words one puts together that saves them. Freddy, if I understand him correctly, is rightly pointing out the monstrosity of Jesus actually deserving punishment, not that Jesus was not our substitute.

The site rules should be read before continuing discourse. Read particularly 2.1 and 2.2. Making public assumptions about another's faith is expressly forbidden.


Scripture is more than sufficient for delving deeply into the knowledge of the Almighty. Not that you disagree with me here, but, it is our understanding that is stunted—not Scripture. PSA and many other things we conclude are only handles we put on what we think.
My point was not at all that it's a form of words that saves one!

The point was that it's part of the faith that God gives his elect, that Jesus bore our sins and punishments, on the cross. To deny that, is to deny what Jesus did and what he accomplished.

If a poster is playing games with words, then he needs to realise that this is not a game. I find it reprehensible that any professing Christian would deny that Jesus was punished for our sins. Crucifixion was an extremely severe form of punishment, reserved for the very worst criminals, and that's all it was. This is very well known.

No-one has claimed that Jesus deserved punishment! Everyone knows that Jesus was sinless, yet he was punished on the cross, to the extreme, for our sins. This has all been clearly posted, by several posters.

Our place was one of rebellious sinners, deserving the severest of punishments. Jesus took our sins and the condign punishments, or he was not our substitute at all.
 
Admit that a person doesn't have to understand what / how you do, to have a valid point.
It's not about intellectual understanding. It's about believing what Jesus did, when he shed his blood and died on the cross.

When God gave me faith, it was faith that Jesus took my sins and punishments upon himself, on the cross. I had little to no Christian knowledge (I was reading the gospel of Luke, for the first time), had never read a theology book, had not been a church-goer and did not know Christian terminology. He does not give different people different faith; and saving faith does not depend upon someone's level of knowledge or understanding.
 
It's not about intellectual understanding. It's about believing what Jesus did, when he shed his blood and died on the cross.

When God gave me faith, it was faith that Jesus took my sins and punishments upon himself, on the cross. I had little to no Christian knowledge (I was reading the gospel of Luke, for the first time), had never read a theology book, had not been a church-goer and did not know Christian terminology. He does not give different people different faith; and saving faith does not depend upon someone's level of knowledge or understanding.
Nobody's disagreeing with or objecting to that.
 
My point was not at all that it's a form of words that saves one!

The point was that it's part of the faith that God gives his elect, that Jesus bore our sins and punishments, on the cross. To deny that, is to deny what Jesus did and what he accomplished.

If a poster is playing games with words, then he needs to realise that this is not a game. I find it reprehensible that any professing Christian would deny that Jesus was punished for our sins. Crucifixion was an extremely severe form of punishment, reserved for the very worst criminals, and that's all it was. This is very well known.

No-one has claimed that Jesus deserved punishment! Everyone knows that Jesus was sinless, yet he was punished on the cross, to the extreme, for our sins. This has all been clearly posted, by several posters.

Our place was one of rebellious sinners, deserving the severest of punishments. Jesus took our sins and the condign punishments, or he was not our substitute at all.
Nobody is disagreeing with you. I said be careful how you say it. Even your way of putting it can be taken wrong.
 
I wrote a lot of things and fed it to ChatGPT to reword everything for me so I sound more intelligent... Lol. It's sourced on all facts, no worries.


1. The Penal Substitutionary Atonement: A Cornerstone of Reformed Soteriology

First, we must state unequivocally: Reformed theology has long affirmed the doctrine of penal substitution—that is, Christ bore the penalty due to sinners in their place, satisfying the demands of God's holy justice. As Isaiah prophesied, "He was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace" (Isa. 53:5,). And Paul, in Romans 3:25-26, declares that God put Christ forward as a propitiation by his blood, so as to be both just and the justifier.


The Westminster Confession of Faith (chap. VIII.4-5) affirms this:

“This office the Lord Jesus did most willingly undertake... to satisfy divine justice, procure His Father’s favor, purchase a peculiar people, give an everlasting inheritance...”

“The Lord Jesus, by His perfect obedience and sacrifice of Himself, which He through the eternal Spirit once offered up unto God, hath fully satisfied the justice of His Father...”

Here the confession makes explicit that Christ satisfied justice—a justice that, according to Scripture (Rom. 1:18; 2:5), demands punishment for sin, not merely a notional "penalty." There is no suggestion of a bifurcation between penalty and punishment

Therefore, to suggest that Christ bore only a "penalty" in some abstract or legal sense while avoiding the true "punishment" of sin appears to cut against the grain of this vital truth.



2. Penalty is Punishment Under Divine Justice

The distinction in the statement between "penalty" and "punishment" may be a modern attempt to sanitize or soften the substitutionary nature of the atonement, perhaps to align it with a less retributive framework. But in the Reformed tradition, the penalty for sin is nothing less than the punishment rightly deserved under God’s justice. As Romans 6:23 says, “The wages of sin is death.”

Now, Christ, being sinless and fully God, could not suffer the eternal punishment of the damned (e.g., despair, corruption, continued rebellion)—but He did endure the equivalent punishment in His own person, especially under the wrath of God, climactically on the cross.


As Calvin wrote in his Institutes (II.16.10):

“If Christ had died only a bodily death, it would have been ineffectual. It was necessary for him to undergo the severity of God’s vengeance, to appease his wrath and satisfy his righteous judgment.”


Thus, Calvin does not separate "penalty" from "punishment" but sees them as overlapping—Christ bore the punishment as penalty.


3. The Cross and the Cup of Wrath

To say Christ did not bear our punishment is to minimize or redefine the "cup" He trembled before in Gethsemane. That cup, rich in Old Testament imagery, is the cup of divine wrath (cf. Ps. 75:8; Isa. 51:17; Jer. 25:15). On the cross, He was forsaken (Matt. 27:46)—not because the Trinity was divided, but because He stood in the place of sinners and bore the curse of the Law (Gal. 3:13).

This curse is not abstract. It is punitive. And it is personal.


The Larger Catechism, Question 49:

Q. How did Christ humble himself in his death?
A. Christ humbled himself in his death, in that having been betrayed by Judas, forsaken by his disciples, scorned and rejected by the world, condemned by Pilate, and tormented by his persecutors... and most of all, in conflicting with the terrors of death and the powers of darkness, feeling and bearing the weight of God’s wrath...



This is critical: Christ bore the wrath of God—that is, the punishment for our sin. Wrath, in Scripture, is not a passive consequence; it is active, judicial punishment.


The Heidelberg Catechism
Lord’s Day 15, Q&A 37:

Q: What do you understand by the word “suffered”?

A: That during His whole life on earth, but especially at the end, Christ bore in body and soul the wrath of God against the sin of the whole human race.


The Catechism makes no room for a mere legal fiction. Christ endured the punishment of wrath in His very person—body and soul.


4. A Caution Against Redefining Atonement


Some modern theologians attempt to draw fine distinctions to avoid the offense of divine wrath or retributive justice. But the Reformed tradition, faithful to Scripture, affirms that the punishment Christ bore was real and necessary. He bore not only a legal penalty but the personal, divine punishment due for sin—that we might go free.



5. Why This Distinction (Penalty vs. Punishment) Is Problematic


In some contemporary theological circles—particularly among certain streams of liberal Protestantism or New Perspective influences—the term “penalty” is retained in a vague, abstract way, but “punishment” is dismissed as too violent, too retributive, or unworthy of a loving God.

However, the Reformed tradition stands firmly on the principle that the penalty of sin is punitive in nature. Christ did not merely absorb consequences; He stood under the judicial sentence of the Law as if He were the transgressor (2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 3:13).

@fastfredy0
 
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Managed that twice...
 
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@fastfredy0
I agree with everything you said in post #352 with one possible minor exception (got to keep the discussion interesting .. :) )


I might take issue with:
but He did endure the equivalent punishment in His own person, especially under the wrath of God, climactically on the cross.
I would say Christ work on the cross MORE THAN (not equivalent) covered the punishment due men. Many people imply this when they say Christ died for the elect but His work was sufficient for everyone without exception. (of course, "many people" could be wrong ... *giggle*)


Too summarize my minor issues in this thread ...
I agree that Christ bore the punishment of men. I don't agree that Christ was punished because the dictionary definition of punish is:
inflict a penalty or sanction on (someone) as retribution for an offense, especially a transgression of a legal or moral code.
Since Christ made no transgressions (He was sinless) the definition of punish is not appropriate IMO. Christ suffered but it was not because of His sin and thus He was not punished, He was sacrificed to bare our punishment.
 
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I agree with everything you said in post #352 with one possible minor exception (got to keep the discussion interesting .. :) )


I might take issue with:

I would say Christ work on the cross MORE THAN (not equivalent) covered the punishment due men. Many people imply this when they say Christ died for the elect but His work was sufficient for everyone without exception.


Too summarize my minor issues in this thread ...
I agree that Christ bore the punishment of men. I don't agree that Christ was punished because the dictionary definition of punish is:
inflict a penalty or sanction on (someone) as retribution for an offense, especially a transgression of a legal or moral code.
Since Christ made no transgressions (He was sinless) the definition of punish is not appropriate IMO. Christ suffered but it was not because of His sin and thus He was not punished, He was sacrificed to bare our punishment.

I would definitely agree with that.
 
I would definitely agree with that.
I don't think it could be any more plain and simple than
Christ bore in body and soul the wrath of God against the sin of man.

And if he bore it for all men, then injustice is done if the reprobate has to suffer it again, therefore, he bore the wrath of God only for the redeemed.
 
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I don't think it could any more plain and simple than
Christ bore in body and soul the wrath of God against the sin of man.

And if he bore it for all men, then injustice is done if the reprobate has to suffer it again, therefore he bore the wrath of God only for the redeemed.

Very true and a good point . though I took his saying "men" to simply mean the elect since he's hard determinist.
 
Christ bore the wrath of God had for men, but Christ did not receive the wrath of God.
Similarly, Christ bore our punishment but He, though He suffered greatly, yet Christ was NOT punished.

Jesus died for the elect only. To die for the reprobate would to die in vain. Jesus sacrifice is sufficient for ALL men without exception

These are my point of view.
 
Christ bore the wrath of God had for men, but Christ did not receive the wrath of God.
Similarly, Christ bore our punishment but He, though He suffered greatly, yet Christ was NOT punished.

Jesus died for the elect only. To die for the reprobate would to die in vain. Jesus sacrifice is sufficient for ALL men without exception

These are my point of view.
He Suffered because he was Smitten by God...

Merry-go-round time...
 
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