Total Depravity

[makesends]

And yours are no different. You deride me and my beliefs as Pelagian heresy; but then caution me for giving back to you a similar charge. What is with that? You can freely malign me, but the reverse is unacceptable?

And by the way, who has or has not the authority to teach here? As I have said before, once anyone says anything beyond a precise quotation from the Bible, it is only opinion. Even your statement concerning unconditional election is opinion.

Jim, when you show your conclusions, you should show your reasoning for those conclusions. If your reasoning is by way of Scripture, show the scripture and your reasoning for your use of scripture --hopefully, exegesis.

Obviously, there is not enough room here to show the whole matter, but there should be something besides repeated round and round and round. It's not just frustrating --it's puerile. The, "I know you are, but what am I?"-tone isn't going to be put up with long here, and the following I will say so that YOU can understand: It won't be put with long here, EVEN IF YOU ARE RIGHT.

Deal with it, fair or not.

 

[Carbon]

Our nature is precisely that which God created. It can be no other. No one, other than God Himself, has the power and authority to change what He created. Now it is true that by nature we choose to obey or to disobey. That is called free-will. And in disobeying, which everyone who lives long enough will disobey, we sin and become objects of wrath.

How then, do you understand what God said here? And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3:15.

 

[Arial]

Our nature is precisely that which God created. It can be no other. No one, other than God Himself, has the power and authority to change what He created. Now it is true that by nature we choose to obey or to disobey. That is called free-will. And in disobeying, which everyone who lives long enough will disobey, we sin and become objects of wrath.

If every human being ever born of Adam (for that is where humans began and multiplied from) sins, that, by the very definition of "nature" is human nature.

If every fish ever born or hatched lives in water, that is the nature of fish.

If every dog born has the same internal cooling system of panting that is canine nature.

If God created Adam with a nature to sin (which is not the same thing at all as the ability to sin) then God created something antithetical to who he is. IOW something contradictory to his nature of perfect. Which of course is impossible.

So he did not create man with a sinful nature. Something was added to the nature of man. Sinfulness. It is the result of two things. Gaining a knowledge of evil that he was not created with, as well as the good that he was created with. And secondly Adam, Eve, and all their posterity now locked out of the Garden where God dwelt.

The only way back is through Christ taking on himself the penalty for sin and sins. Yes, our personal sins meeting justice are part of what Jesus accomplished on the cross, but he also broke the curse that came through Adam, for those who are placed in Christ by grace and through faith. If he had broken that curse for everyone on the cross, and now no one is born a sinner by nature, how do you explain the fact that it is as if it had never been broken? Everyone born still sins

What Jesus did is not just about meeting God's justice against sin. That had to be done. But it is done for the purpose of restoring a lost relationship between God and his creature (created) man.

 

[makesends]

If every human being ever born of Adam (for that is where humans began and multiplied from) sins, that, by the very definition of "nature" is human nature.

If every fish ever born or hatched lives in water, that is the nature of fish.

If every dog born has the same internal cooling system of panting that is canine nature.

If God created Adam with a nature to sin (which is not the same thing at all as the ability to sin) then God created something antithetical to who he is. IOW something contradictory to his nature or perfect. Which of course is impossible.

So he did not create man with a sinful nature. Something was added to the nature of man. Sinfulness. It is the result of two things. Gaining a knowledge of evil that he was not created with, as well as the good that he was created with. And secondly Adam, Eve, and all their posterity now locked out of the Garden where God dwelt.

The only way back is through Christ taking on himself the penalty for sin and sins. Yes, our personal sins meeting justice are part of what Jesus accomplished on the cross, but he also broke the curse that came through Adam, for those who are placed in Christ by grace and through faith. If he had broken that curse for everyone on the cross, and now no one is born a sinner by nature, how do you explain the fact that it is as if it had never been broken? Everyone born still sins

What Jesus did is not just about meeting God's justice against sin. That had to be done. But it is done for the purpose of restoring a lost relationship between God and his creature (created) man.

Yes, as far as your point goes, but, much better than Eden.

 

[Arial]

Yes, as far as your point goes, but, much better than Eden.

Yes, much better than Eden but that slides too far off the topic and anyway, I have pointed it out to that poster a couple of times before with no acknowledgement from him.

But I will say this. God is not just saving humans, he is restoring his entire creation through their redemption and removing once and for all, evil. Therefore sin and death. And he is doing it for Jesus. And for us. He created earth to be our home. So you might say, he is cleaning our house, that we let get filthy.

 

[makesends]

Yes, much better than Eden but that slides too far off the topic and anyway, I have pointed it out to that poster a couple of times before with no acknowledgement from him.

But I will say this. God is not just saving humans, he is restoring his entire creation through their redemption and removing once and for all, evil. Therefore sin and death. And he is doing it for Jesus. And for us. He created earth to be our home. So you might say, he is cleaning our house, that we let get filthy.

Amen that!

 

[atpollard]

In the Westminister Confession, the doctrine of Total Depravity (Total Inability) is stated as follows: Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

Agree, disagree?

Agree.

1689 Baptist Confession of Faith in Modern English

Chapter 9 – Free Will​

1. God has endowed human will with natural liberty and power to act on choices so that it is neither forced nor inherently bound by nature to do good or evil.(1)

(1)Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; Deuteronomy 30:19.



2. Humanity in the state of innocence had freedom and power to will and to do what was good and well-pleasing to God.(2) Yet this condition was unstable, so that humanity could fall from it.(3)

(2)Ecclesiastes 7:29. (3)Genesis 3:6.



3. Humanity, by falling into a state of sin, has completely lost all ability to choose any spiritual good that accompanies salvation.(4) Thus, people in their natural(a) state are absolutely opposed to spiritual good and dead in sin,(5) so that they cannot convert themselves by their own strength or prepare themselves for conversion.(6)

(a)without the Spirit
(4)Romans 5:6; Romans 8:7. (5)Ephesians 2:1-5. (6)Titus 3:3–5; John 6:44.



4. When God converts sinners and transforms them into the state of grace, he frees them from their natural bondage to sin(7) and by his grace alone enables them to will and to do freely what is spiritually good.(8) Yet because of their remaining corruption, they do not perfectly nor exclusively will what is good but also will what is evil.(9)

(7)Colossians 1:13; John 8:36. (8)Philippians 2:13. (9)Romans 7:15-23



5. Only in the state of glory is the will made perfectly and unchangeably free toward good alone.(10)

(10)Ephesians 4:13.

 

[brightfame52]

Mans total depravity is real, see all of us by nature are carnal, no matter how moral, or immoral we are. Now as such the indictment is Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Now by nature, that's the only mind we can have, staring from the womb, the mind we have, even in its most embryonic
stages, is enmity against God, the True God that is. And its noted that this mind we have by nature, it cannot be subject to God since it cannot be subject to Gods law. Gods Law and Himself are One !
The word mind as in "carnal mind"φρόνημα:

1. what one has in the mind, the thoughts and purposes, (mental) inclination or purpose:

Also the word carnal is sarx translated flesh 147 times in NT
The word Jesus uses here Jn 3:6-7

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Hence the need to be born again Vs7

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

So if not born again, we remain carnal, in the flesh, and enmity against God, Total Depravity is real biblically !

 

[makesends]

Mans total depravity is real, see all of us by nature are carnal, no matter how moral, or immoral we are. Now as such the indictment is Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Now by nature, that's the only mind we can have, staring from the womb, the mind we have, even in its most embryonic
stages, is enmity against God, the True God that is. And its noted that this mind we have by nature, it cannot be subject to God since it cannot be subject to Gods law. Gods Law and Himself are One !
The word mind as in "carnal mind"φρόνημα:

1. what one has in the mind, the thoughts and purposes, (mental) inclination or purpose:

Also the word carnal is sarx translated flesh 147 times in NT
The word Jesus uses here Jn 3:6-7

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Hence the need to be born again Vs7

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

So if not born again, we remain carnal, in the flesh, and enmity against God, Total Depravity is real biblically !

Mod Hat: Please rewrite that, showing some indication of where Scripture is quoted vs where it is you speaking. Quote marks, or Italics for one and non-italics for the other, or some other way.

 

[QVQ]

In the Westminister Confession, the doctrine of Total Depravity (Total Inability) is stated as follows: Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

Agree

 

[brightfame52]

Mod Hat: Please rewrite that, showing some indication of where Scripture is quoted vs where it is you speaking. Quote marks, or Italics for one and non-italics for the other, or some other way.

I pass. This is a dictatorship.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I pass. This is a dictatorship.

How is it a dictatorship?

@makesends just asked to separate Scripture from your quote.

 

[Carbon]

How is it a dictatorship?

@makesends just asked to separate Scripture from your quote.

Right.
Whats the harm?

 

[brightfame52]

How is it a dictatorship?

@makesends just asked to separate Scripture from your quote.

To be honest I dont understand the request. Are not the scriptures I quoted already distinct from my comments ?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

To be honest I dont understand the request. Are not the scriptures I quoted already distinct from my comments ?

I am thinking this .....


That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Hence the need to be born again Vs7

 

[makesends]

To be honest I dont understand the request. Are not the scriptures I quoted already distinct from my comments ?

With the number of paraphrases these days written as translations, I have to take the time to figure out which is actually scripture and which is not. Further, I have to find the scripture that I think is a scripture to see that it was quoted correctly, or was it misused, just to be sure. It would be a lot easier for those who read your post, in order to figure out what you are saying, if it was plainly differentiated.

I meant you no insult. I do the same thing when people reference someone else without linking their name so that they are alerted. It's common courtesy. I wrote it in red so you and others would take notice. It was not a warning.

 

[makesends]

In the Westminister Confession, the doctrine of Total Depravity (Total Inability) is stated as follows: Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

Agree, disagree?

That is the Westminster Confession of Faith, chap. 9, sec. 3.

The language is truly dated (although traditionalists prefer that), so here it is in modern English, produced by the Evangelical Presbyterian Church in Michigan (2010; 3rd ed.):

​

Man fell into a state of sin by his disobedience and so completely lost his ability to will any spiritual good involving salvation. Consequently, fallen man is by nature completely opposed to spiritual good, dead in sin, and unable by his own strength either to convert himself or to prepare himself for conversion.​

​

WCF Chapter 3.1 mentions God ordaining everything that comes to pass, "yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

These two ('Total Depravity' and 'no violence offered to the will of creatures'), do not conflict, and that, almost humorously, certainly ironically, because of (as I see it) the fact that God has established all that comes to pass. Our temporally dependent minds can't quite make a satisfactory logical tie there, but it is there, nonetheless.

 

[brightfame52]

I am thinking this .....


That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Hence the need to be born again Vs7

Really ? I have been posting threads and on threads for decades, this has never occurred

 

[brightfame52]

With the number of paraphrases these days written as translations, I have to take the time to figure out which is actually scripture and which is not. Further, I have to find the scripture that I think is a scripture to see that it was quoted correctly, or was it misused, just to be sure. It would be a lot easier for those who read your post, in order to figure out what you are saying, if it was plainly differentiated.

I meant you no insult. I do the same thing when people reference someone else without linking their name so that they are alerted. It's common courtesy. I wrote it in red so you and others would take notice. It was not a warning.

Noted my friend