Total Depravity. Was it a misnomer?

[GeneZ]

What about Mary?

What are you asking about Mary?

 

[Josheb]

.

..........its implied because man naturally is dead to God and evil. He can do no good spiritually because he lacks spiritual life, which means he lacks spiritual ability.

I added my comment because its an open forum, and the comment was relevant to the topic.

Man is not "naturally dead" to God, according to Romans 1:18-32 and other passages in scripture. God is actively working to address all humanity. The word "dead" is used quite diversely throughout scripture so it's always important to qualify its usage in the forum. Being physically dead is not identical to being dead in sin and being dead in sin is not the same as being dead to sin or being dead in Christ. Many use the phrase "spiritually dead," but while of some use, it is an unnecessary (and sometimes inaccurate) addition to scripture.

The unregenerate human cannot do good "spiritually," but you'll have to define that phrase because sinful humans can and often do good and are commended by God for doing so. It is irrelevant to the concept of Total Depravity," (TD) though because has nothing to do with sinful human ability outside the specific domain of salvation. All TD teaches is that the effects of sin are so total that they prevent humans from coming to God for salvation from sin in their own might. That's all. TD says nothing about human ability beyond the one, single, solitary matter of salvation. TD is not to be confused or conflated with the whole doctrine of hamartiology. The op makes that mistake when it states,

"Total depravity would have to mean that the flesh and soul are each hopelessly depraved. But, there is a total depravity! Man will become totally depraved when he insists upon rejecting God during times that grace was being implemented to paralyze the effects of the flesh over the soul. Paralyzing the sin nature is by grace makes that soul momentarily truly free to either choose for, or against God, while God was drawing him by grace."​

.

Notice the only time salvation is mentioned is in the comment, "Leaves God with nothing to save. When God saves a soul he has crucified that man's flesh in Christ.... Leaves God with nothing to save," and those sentences contradict each other (how can God save a soul if there is nothing to save?). Presumably, there's no spirit to save is what was intended but that premise runs into a variety of other problems.





Besides, I do not know of anyone who thinks people lacking the Spirit can or do behave in any way relevant to the Spirit, good or bad. That would be like asking someone who has never been to the moon to tell us of their experience doing so.

 

[donadams]

What are you asking about Mary?

She is exempt from your description of man.

 

[donadams]

.

Man is not "naturally dead" to God, according to Romans 1:18-32 and other passages in scripture. God is actively working to address all humanity. The word "dead" is used quite diversely throughout scripture so it's always important to qualify its usage in the forum. Being physically dead is not identical to being dead in sin and being dead in sin is not the same as being dead to sin or being dead in Christ. Many use the phrase "spiritually dead," but while of some use, it is an unnecessary (and sometimes inaccurate) addition to scripture.

The unregenerate human cannot do good "spiritually," but you'll have to define that phrase because sinful humans can and often do good and are commended by God for doing so. It is irrelevant to the concept of Total Depravity," (TD) though because has nothing to do with sinful human ability outside the specific domain of salvation. All TD teaches is that the effects of sin are so total that they prevent humans from coming to God for salvation from sin in their own might. That's all. TD says nothing about human ability beyond the one, single, solitary matter of salvation. TD is not to be confused or conflated with the whole doctrine of hamartiology. The op makes that mistake when it states,

"Total depravity would have to mean that the flesh and soul are each hopelessly depraved. But, there is a total depravity! Man will become totally depraved when he insists upon rejecting God during times that grace was being implemented to paralyze the effects of the flesh over the soul. Paralyzing the sin nature is by grace makes that soul momentarily truly free to either choose for, or against God, while God was drawing him by grace."​

.

Notice the only time salvation is mentioned is in the comment, "Leaves God with nothing to save. When God saves a soul he has crucified that man's flesh in Christ.... Leaves God with nothing to save," and those sentences contradict each other (how can God save a soul if there is nothing to save?). Presumably, there's no spirit to save is what was intended but that premise runs into a variety of other problems.





Besides, I do not know of anyone who thinks people lacking the Spirit can or do behave in any way relevant to the Spirit, good or bad. That would be like asking someone who has never been to the moon to tell us of their experience doing so.

He probably means devoid of grace.

 

[Josheb]

He probably means devoid of grace.

Maybe. I'd appreciate knowing. I think words matter and when I mis-speak I appreciate the opportunity to clarify .

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Total Depravity. Was it a misnomer?​

It's just "words". Whether it's a "Misnomer" or not depends on the Theology that defines it. There are several.

Man since the fall of Adam has been depraved.

Disagree, Man's HUMAN nature never changed. Adam DIED SPIRITUALLY when he sinned just like we do. And He sinned just like we do, and for the same reasons. (James 1:14).

He can not believe unless God supplies grace to overcome his sinful flesh that will be dominating over the soul.

True. (Eph 2:8,9) NOBODY COMES TO CHRIST unless they are "Drawn to Him" by Father (john 6:44).

When God saves a soul he has crucified that man's flesh in Christ.

TRUE (gal 2:20)

 

[GeneZ]

She is exempt from your description of man.

In what way?

Are you Catholic in what you believe about Mary?

 

[donadams]

In what way?

Are you Catholic in what you believe about Mary?

Of course!

This way:

Immaculate conception and the Four spiritual laws:

2) Man is sinful and separated from God, so we cannot know Him personally or experience His love.
Man is Sinful.

3) Jesus Christ is God's only provision for man's sin. Through Him alone we can know God personally and experience God's love.
He Died in Our Place.

4) We must individually receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord; then we can know God personally and experience His love.
We Must Receive Christ.

Knowing this how can scripture say:

Lk 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

“Full of grace”

“Lord is with Mary”
(not Mary is with the Lord)

“Blessed”

The only possibility is the “immaculate conception” by the power of God thru the future merits of the passion and death of Jesus Christ! Amen! Lk 1:37 Lk 1:49

 

[GeneZ]

Of course!

This way:

Immaculate conception and the Four spiritual laws:

2) Man is sinful and separated from God, so we cannot know Him personally or experience His love.
Man is Sinful.

3) Jesus Christ is God's only provision for man's sin. Through Him alone we can know God personally and experience God's love.
He Died in Our Place.

4) We must individually receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord; then we can know God personally and experience His love.
We Must Receive Christ.

Knowing this how can scripture say:

Lk 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

“Full of grace”

“Lord is with Mary”
(not Mary is with the Lord)

“Blessed”

The only possibility is the “immaculate conception” by the power of God thru the future merits of the passion and death of Jesus Christ! Amen! Lk 1:37 Lk 1:49

Don... I grew up in a Catholic neighborhood. Practically all my friends were Catholic.

There is a problem here. The RCC created a story in attempt to explain how Jesus born of Mary was born without sin.
The assumption was that Mary had to be sinless in order to bring forth sinless Jesus.

But? That is not Scripture.
Scripture tells us how and why Jesus was able to have no sin nature.
It requires wisdom, not imaginative narrative to explain.
Sorry... the RCC made it up. We need sound doctrinal insight to explain it.

Here is the key. Its found in Genesis 3:15 and Romans 5:12.

​

And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; ​

He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.” (Genesis 3:15)​

​

The Lord did not say that the seed of the man would crush the serpent's head.
Why mention the woman's ovum? That sort of wording was very odd for the ancients,
because progeny were seen as coming from the father's seed in their day.

Now....

​

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, ​

and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, ​

because all sinned (when Adam sinned)." (Romans 5:12)​

In the garden the woman sinned first. Correct?"
But it says that sin entered the world through Adam, not the woman!

Why?

For the woman's ovum does not carry the defect of the sin nature.
The man's sperm does!

That is why Jesus could be born of woman sinless!

But, have no human father!

That's the answer.

 

[donadams]

Don... I grew up in a Catholic neighborhood. Practically all my friends were Catholic.

There is a problem here. The RCC created a story in attempt to explain how Jesus born of Mary was born without sin.
The assumption was that Mary had to be sinless in order to bring forth sinless Jesus.

But? That is not Scripture.
Scripture tells us how and why Jesus was able to have no sin nature.
It requires wisdom, not imaginative narrative to explain.
Sorry... the RCC made it up. We need sound doctrinal insight to explain it.

Here is the key. Its found in Genesis 3:15 and Romans 5:12.

​

And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; ​

He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.” (Genesis 3:15)​

​

The Lord did not say that the seed of the man would crush the serpent's head.
Why mention the woman's ovum? That sort of wording was very odd for the ancients,
because progeny were seen as coming from the father's seed in their day.

Now....

​

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, ​

and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, ​

because all sinned (when Adam sinned)." (Romans 5:12)​

In the garden the woman sinned first. Correct?"
But it says that sin entered the world through Adam, not the woman!

Why?

For the woman's ovum does not carry the defect of the sin nature.
The man's sperm does!

That is why Jesus could be born of woman sinless!

But, have no human father!

That's the answer.

Why is Joseph the father of Jesus?
Lk 2:48 Jn 1:45

Gen 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Lk 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Still have not answered why Mary is full of grace?
The Lord is with Her?
She is blessed?
All before the sacrifice of Christ???

 

[brightfame52]

.

Man is not "naturally dead" to God, according to Romans 1:18-32 and other passages in scripture. God is actively working to address all humanity. The word "dead" is used quite diversely throughout scripture so it's always important to qualify its usage in the forum. Being physically dead is not identical to being dead in sin and being dead in sin is not the same as being dead to sin or being dead in Christ. Many use the phrase "spiritually dead," but while of some use, it is an unnecessary (and sometimes inaccurate) addition to scripture.

The unregenerate human cannot do good "spiritually," but you'll have to define that phrase because sinful humans can and often do good and are commended by God for doing so. It is irrelevant to the concept of Total Depravity," (TD) though because has nothing to do with sinful human ability outside the specific domain of salvation. All TD teaches is that the effects of sin are so total that they prevent humans from coming to God for salvation from sin in their own might. That's all. TD says nothing about human ability beyond the one, single, solitary matter of salvation. TD is not to be confused or conflated with the whole doctrine of hamartiology. The op makes that mistake when it states,

"Total depravity would have to mean that the flesh and soul are each hopelessly depraved. But, there is a total depravity! Man will become totally depraved when he insists upon rejecting God during times that grace was being implemented to paralyze the effects of the flesh over the soul. Paralyzing the sin nature is by grace makes that soul momentarily truly free to either choose for, or against God, while God was drawing him by grace."​

.

Notice the only time salvation is mentioned is in the comment, "Leaves God with nothing to save. When God saves a soul he has crucified that man's flesh in Christ.... Leaves God with nothing to save," and those sentences contradict each other (how can God save a soul if there is nothing to save?). Presumably, there's no spirit to save is what was intended but that premise runs into a variety of other problems.





Besides, I do not know of anyone who thinks people lacking the Spirit can or do behave in any way relevant to the Spirit, good or bad. That would be like asking someone who has never been to the moon to tell us of their experience doing so.

Man is spiritually dead to God friend. Thats our total depravity. Unless a man is born again, he remains dead to God.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Why is Joseph the father of Jesus?

Joseph was recorded as the "Father Figure in his family" As such he would have participated in the raising of Jesus in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Still have not answered why Mary is full of grace?

She was chosen to be the human through which God would bring His Son. (duh)

She is blessed?

Of course!! Being the one through whom Jesus was born is a blessing.

All before the sacrifice of Christ???

Plenty of people were "Blessed" before Calvary.

 

[GeneZ]

Why is Joseph the father of Jesus?
Lk 2:48 Jn 1:45

Because Joseph was his legal father.

It happens all the time. Someone remarries and becomes the legal father over his wife's children.

 

[ReverendRV]

Why is Joseph the father of Jesus?
Lk 2:48 Jn 1:45

Chiefly, so that Jesus could legally be in the Family of King David; and be in the Line of the Kings of Israel through King Solomon...

 

[GeneZ]

Why is Joseph the father of Jesus?
Lk 2:48 Jn 1:45

Gen 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Lk 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Still have not answered why Mary is full of grace?
The Lord is with Her?
She is blessed?
All before the sacrifice of Christ???

And Mary said:

“My soul glorifies the Lord
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior."

Luke 1:46-47​

Mary calls the Lord her Savior!
Why?

She needed salvation!
Fallen people need salvation.
Fallen people get grace from the Lord!
If not? Only Jesus would have received grace!

The Lord was with Paul, too.
And, Paul called himself the chief sinner! 1 Timothy 1:15

Immaculate people would be sinless!
Not needing for a savior.

The Catholic church made it up!

 

[donadams]

Joseph was recorded as the "Father Figure in his family" As such he would have participated in the raising of Jesus in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

She was chosen to be the human through which God would bring His Son. (duh)

Of course!! Being the one through whom Jesus was born is a blessing.

Plenty of people were "Blessed" before Calvary.

But Mary is blessed before being offered the privilege and consenting to being the mother of God

 

[donadams]

Because Joseph was his legal father.

It happens all the time. Someone remarries and becomes the legal father over his wife's children.

That is correct
There are more than one kind of father
Just as there are more than one kind of brothers like Abraham and Lot

 

[Bob Carabbio]

But Mary is blessed before being offered the privilege and consenting to being the mother of God

The REAL MARY is Jesus' Mother. GOD HAS NO MOTHER. God is eternal. Yes I DO know the "Word Games you play to get "Mother of God".
The Orthodox are more realistic with their "Theotokos".

 

[Josheb]

Man is spiritually dead to God friend. Thats our total depravity.

Would you mind showing me where scripture uses the phrase "spiritually dead"?

Unless a man is born again, he remains dead to God.

Not the subject of this thread.

 

[brightfame52]

Would you mind showing me where scripture uses the phrase "spiritually dead"?

Not the subject of this thread.

It says by Adams sin many be dead Rom 5:15


But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Dead here isn't speaking about physical death, but spiritual, alienation from the life of God.

Also mans depravity is due to being dead to God. Does this thread have to do with total depravity ?